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Wage Subsidy Scheme Issues

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,803 ✭✭✭snowgal


    Sounds a bit much. Does he have a payroll package or is he working it out himself? We have a payroll package and it gives the TWSS and top up figures we should be paying each employee, so for us there is very little work involved. Even if we were working it out ourselves I cannot imagine it would take 3 days to figure it out.

    Has the Sage package. I can understand the first few weeks but at this stage I though it would be pretty straight forward. And plus there are no timesheets or anything to do as everyone still in employment is on same pay each week. Anyway just wondered was it the norm, cheers


  • Registered Users Posts: 4 Randomuser26


    Hi
    Has anyone else had a wage cut applied on top of their employer claiming the TWSS for them? My wage cut was applied to my NETT pay which results in a far greater wage cut than was agreed and advised. I have complained and basically been told its the only way they can do it, employees are very annoyed. One job market improves there will be lots leaving.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,097 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    snowgal wrote: »
    Hi all, for those working on twss the past few months can I ask have you found it particularly difficult and alot lot more time consuming? I used to work payroll for many years and know whats generally involved though obviously dont have first hand experience on this pandemic issue. My colleague has said it is taking up 3 days of his time to get it done and I cant understand that. There are 6 employees still on normal pay, not affected at all ,and 5 employees on twss. Everyone else has been laid off. Does this really take that much time? thanks
    snowgal wrote: »
    Has the Sage package. I can understand the first few weeks but at this stage I though it would be pretty straight forward. And plus there are no timesheets or anything to do as everyone still in employment is on same pay each week. Anyway just wondered was it the norm, cheers

    i use sage myself. first few weeks were tricky with the messing and new system.
    since then it is easier than ever. it is basically a flat week for everyone, if it is all set up properly it is no more than clicking the mouse a few times in sequential processing and it's done.

    so your colleague is taking 3 days to process payroll for 11 people? honestly that should take about 10 minutes...... and that is being generous, probably more like 5, and the slowest part would be getting the bank file processed!
    sounds to me like someone is swinging the lead here


  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 78,351 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Threads merged


  • Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭fungie


    blackwhite wrote: »
    Under the changes since the start of May - any employee is eligible to be included in the scheme.

    However, if the employee's ARNWP in Jan/Feb was greater than €960, then to be eligible for the scheme their pay must be cut so that their total WSS Subsidy plus Top-up is €960 or less.

    This is the case yet most people aren't on it. I think they have messed it up, meaning there have been unnecessary pay cuts and job losses.


  • Registered Users Posts: 949 ✭✭✭Renjit


    Guys, just a quick question about wage subsidy payment.

    My wife's Average Revenue Net Weekly Pay was calculated based on year's first 9 weeks pay (Jan to Feb). And it happens that the first week had couple of holidays (new year, and employer on leave too). Because of first week the Average Revenue Net Weekly Pay is less than her actual weekly payments.

    This seems a bit odd to me that government hasn't factored this in. One should be taking the regular weekly payment as stipulated in contract in Jan and Feb for the calculation.

    The employer has regular working hours now and even asking for doing extra hours because one of the employee is on temporary leave due to personal reasons. So there is no dearth of customers right now. Earlier she was getting 350 weekly as pandemic employment benefit. And here she gets 350 + some odd 40-50 euros topup which doesn't even match the normal weekly payments. The employer doesnt want to top up to match the actual weekly payment because this will reduce the subsidy calculated on reduced first week + remaining actual work weeks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 500 ✭✭✭Pistachio19


    Seve OB wrote: »
    have an employee due back the week after next from maternity leave.
    we are just going to put her on the covid payment along with everyone else.
    nothing on the csv import file for her.
    does anyone know the protocol here?

    Info on ROS today relating to maternity leave.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 500 ✭✭✭Pistachio19


    Hi
    Has anyone else had a wage cut applied on top of their employer claiming the TWSS for them? My wage cut was applied to my NETT pay which results in a far greater wage cut than was agreed and advised. I have complained and basically been told its the only way they can do it, employees are very annoyed. One job market improves there will be lots leaving.

    Employers are only allowed to work with net pay figures. So they can only top up to your weekly net pay, not your gross. Taking into account tax refunds/payments some employees will come out with more money per week/month and others with less, depending on their personal tax credits. Your employer can only use the revenue rules. If the employer gives you more per week than is allowed as per revenue, the subsidy will be reduced by revenue.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    fungie wrote: »
    Our company has told us only a small percentage of staff qualify for the wage subsidy scheme. I find this hard to believe, I took a 30% pay cut and am in the top quartile in terms of salary in the company. According to the collsoft calculator, I should be eligible to receive the subsidy, therefore, 3/4 (minimum) of staff should be on it.

    I raised this with the company and asked how they determine who can and can't get the subsidy.

    If turnover has dropped more than 25% then everyone can get it, there are over 150 people on it where I work including middle management, only a few key people arent affected,


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭collsoft


    Hi Seve_OB

    Revenue have just published V14 of the TWSS FAQ.

    If you check out section 3.15 the process for applying for a subsidy for an employee coming back of maternity leave is explained.

    Jason
    Seve OB wrote: »
    have an employee due back the week after next from maternity leave.
    we are just going to put her on the covid payment along with everyone else.
    nothing on the csv import file for her.
    does anyone know the protocol here?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭collsoft


    Hi Fungie,

    Hopefully our calculator didnt make a mistake :)

    For any employee with an ARNWP of €586 per week (€2539 per month) or more there are two criteria that makes them eligible for the scheme;

    1) The Gross Pay from the employer must be less than €960 per week (€4160 per month)

    2) The Gross Pay must be at least 20% less than the ARNWP.


    When you say that your pay has dropped by 30%, I assume that you mean that your Gross pay is now 30% less than it was before the COVID pandemic.

    You need to check that your current Gross Pay is also at least 20% lower than your ARNWP.

    This can be difficult to achieve for some employees because the ARNWP is essentially a net pay figure (after all taxes) whereas the Gross pay is obviously the pay before taxes.

    Perhaps your employer is not understanding this while assessing who is eligible.


    fungie wrote: »
    Our company has told us only a small percentage of staff qualify for the wage subsidy scheme. I find this hard to believe, I took a 30% pay cut and am in the top quartile in terms of salary in the company. According to the collsoft calculator, I should be eligible to receive the subsidy, therefore, 3/4 (minimum) of staff should be on it.

    I raised this with the company and asked how they determine who can and can't get the subsidy.
    blackwhite wrote: »
    Under the changes since the start of May - any employee is eligible to be included in the scheme.

    However, if the employee's ARNWP in Jan/Feb was greater than €960, then to be eligible for the scheme their pay must be cut so that their total WSS Subsidy plus Top-up is €960 or less.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,074 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    collsoft wrote: »
    Hi Fungie,

    Hopefully our calculator didnt make a mistake :)

    For any employee with an ARNWP of €586 per week (€2539 per month) or more there are two criteria that makes them eligible for the scheme;

    1) The Gross Pay from the employer must be less than €960 per week (€4160 per month)

    2) The Gross Pay must be at least 20% less than the ARNWP.


    When you say that your pay has dropped by 30%, I assume that you mean that your Gross pay is now 30% less than it was before the COVID pandemic.

    You need to check that your current Gross Pay is also at least 20% lower than your ARNWP.

    This can be difficult to achieve for some employees because the ARNWP is essentially a net pay figure (after all taxes) whereas the Gross pay is obviously the pay before taxes.

    Perhaps your employer is not understanding this while assessing who is eligible.

    You’re confusing the use of the term “Gross Pay” there. Under the scheme rules “Gross Pay” is the top-up amount; the Subsidy is not part of Gross Pay.

    The “Gross Pay” plus the TWSS subsidy cannot be more than the lower of €960 or ARNWP (except for very low earners)


    EDIT - just to add - the 20% “pay cut” requirement for anyone earning over €960 is misleading. Revenue define the pay cut as on Gross Pay - so anyone switching from earning over €960 to being on the subsidy scheme plus a top up to a overall total of €960 will always meet the requirement - due to the subsidy not being counted in gross pay.


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭collsoft


    Hi BlackWhite,

    Im pretty sure I know what "Gross Pay" is and I never said it included the Subsidy.

    For some reason Revenue dont like calling it an "Employer Top Up" and instead they call it an "additional gross payment" in section 1.6 - I shorten that down to "Gross Pay"

    This amount is reported as "Gross Pay" on the Payroll Submission that the employer makes to Revenue and this is the figure that Revenue use to determine the subsidy, tapering and indeed eligibility for those on a tiered subsidy.

    I also call it "Gross Pay" to help keep the terminology in line with anything that an employer/employee would see if they logged into ROS or myAccount.

    I have attached a screenshot of how you will see it in myAccount, and as you will see it's called "Gross Pay".

    Its also likely to be called that at some point on the employee's payslip so i am just trying to use a language that most people can relate to.





    blackwhite wrote: »
    You’re confusing the use of the term “Gross Pay” there. Under the scheme rules “Gross Pay” is the top-up amount; the Subsidy is not part of Gross Pay.

    The “Gross Pay” plus the TWSS subsidy cannot be more than the lower of €960 or ARNWP (except for very low earners)


    EDIT - just to add - the 20% “pay cut” requirement for anyone earning over €960 is misleading. Revenue define the pay cut as on Gross Pay - so anyone switching from earning over €960 to being on the subsidy scheme plus a top up to a overall total of €960 will always meet the requirement - due to the subsidy not being counted in gross pay.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,074 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    collsoft wrote: »
    Hi BlackWhite,

    Im pretty sure I know what "Gross Pay" is and I never said it included the Subsidy.

    For some reason Revenue dont like calling it an "Employer Top Up" and instead they call it an "additional gross payment" in section 1.6 - I shorten that down to "Gross Pay"

    This amount is reported as "Gross Pay" on the Payroll Submission that the employer makes to Revenue and this is the figure that Revenue use to determine the subsidy, tapering and indeed eligibility for those on a tiered subsidy.

    I also call it "Gross Pay" to help keep the terminology in line with anything that an employer/employee would see if they logged into ROS or myAccount.

    I have attached a screenshot of how you will see it in myAccount, and as you will see it's called "Gross Pay".

    Its also likely to be called that at some point on the employee's payslip so i am just trying to use a language that most people can relate to.


    Except - you’ve used the phrase “gross pay” to mean two different things in your explanation. So maybe you don’t know what it means as well as you think you do :pac:

    In your point 1 - you’ve used Gross Pay to mean Subsidy plus Top-Up (the bit than must be less than €960 in total)

    In point 2 you use the phrase Gross Pay to refer to the top up (which must be at least 20% reduced from the ARNWP


    I was pointing out that you’ve managed to use the same phrase to mean two completely different things - and you’re response is to be condescending?


    For someone who’s being given a hell of a lot of leeway with the site rules to shill his product, you aren’t the best at reading people’s (who might be potential customers) responses.


  • Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭fungie


    collsoft wrote: »
    Hi Fungie,

    Hopefully our calculator didnt make a mistake :)

    For any employee with an ARNWP of €586 per week (€2539 per month) or more there are two criteria that makes them eligible for the scheme;

    1) The Gross Pay from the employer must be less than €960 per week (€4160 per month)

    2) The Gross Pay must be at least 20% less than the ARNWP.


    When you say that your pay has dropped by 30%, I assume that you mean that your Gross pay is now 30% less than it was before the COVID pandemic.

    You need to check that your current Gross Pay is also at least 20% lower than your ARNWP.

    This can be difficult to achieve for some employees because the ARNWP is essentially a net pay figure (after all taxes) whereas the Gross pay is obviously the pay before taxes.

    Perhaps your employer is not understanding this while assessing who is eligible.

    In Jan-Feb this year my ARNWP was 968 (calculated by dividing jan and febs net salary and dividing by 8). My pay now (gross) is 70% of what it was before covid, i.e. 30% pay cut.

    My take home pay for May was 25% less than my take home pay for the Jan-Feb period. My pension contributions have stayed the same, calculated as a percentage of my gross Jan-Feb salary.

    There is no mention of wage subsidy scheme so can only assume employer is paying all the amount.

    Should I qualify or not?


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭collsoft


    Hi Fungie,

    I cant exactly say based on the figures that you have given - but my suspicion is that you probably do not qualify - but I cant say for 100% sure because in order to know that I would need to know what your Gross Pay is now.


    As I mentioned in my previous answer one of the criteria required to be eligible is that your Gross Pay is now less than €960 per week.

    Now despite BlackWhite's input, I am not talking about the Gross Pay plus the Subsidy - I am talking about the Gross Pay in isolation of the subsidy.

    But here is the thing.

    For the purpose of The Wage Subsidy Scheme, the Gross Pay is the payment that the employer is paying you before any pension deductions are made, and they would also include any BIK also.

    So you need to look at your Gross Pay before the pension is deducted, and based on the ARNWP that you mentioned, I am guessing that a 30% pay cut is not going to be enough to bring you under €960

    And, if your Gross Pay is not under €960 then you are not eligible for the subsidy.

    The other thing to keep in mind is that I know you mentioned that your Gross Pay has been cut by 30%, and I know in real terms that is an awful lot

    But the other requirement is that your Gross Pay has to drop by at least 20% below your ARNWP.

    In your case with an ARNWP of €968 that means that your Gross Pay before pension deductions has to drop to €774.40 in order to be eligible for the wage subsidy scheme.

    Jason



    P.S. With respect to my suspicion that you are not eligible its based on the fact that your drop in Gross Pay is 30%. If you take a tax rate 20% plus PRSI and USC then this comes very close to 30% and therefore a 30% drop in Gross Pay (before pension) may not be enough to bring you under €960
    fungie wrote: »
    In Jan-Feb this year my ARNWP was 968 (calculated by dividing jan and febs net salary and dividing by 8). My pay now (gross) is 70% of what it was before covid, i.e. 30% pay cut.

    My take home pay for May was 25% less than my take home pay for the Jan-Feb period. My pension contributions have stayed the same, calculated as a percentage of my gross Jan-Feb salary.

    There is no mention of wage subsidy scheme so can only assume employer is paying all the amount.

    Should I qualify or not?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,097 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    Renjit wrote: »
    Guys, just a quick question about wage subsidy payment.

    My wife's Average Revenue Net Weekly Pay was calculated based on year's first 9 weeks pay (Jan to Feb). And it happens that the first week had couple of holidays (new year, and employer on leave too). Because of first week the Average Revenue Net Weekly Pay is less than her actual weekly payments.

    This seems a bit odd to me that government hasn't factored this in. One should be taking the regular weekly payment as stipulated in contract in Jan and Feb for the calculation.

    The employer has regular working hours now and even asking for doing extra hours because one of the employee is on temporary leave due to personal reasons. So there is no dearth of customers right now. Earlier she was getting 350 weekly as pandemic employment benefit. And here she gets 350 + some odd 40-50 euros topup which doesn't even match the normal weekly payments. The employer doesnt want to top up to match the actual weekly payment because this will reduce the subsidy calculated on reduced first week + remaining actual work weeks.

    there are a lot of flaws and nonsensical rules in this system but it is what it is and some people are being hard done by as a result


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,074 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    collsoft wrote: »
    Hi Fungie,

    I cant exactly say based on the figures that you have given - but my suspicion is that you probably do not qualify - but I cant say for 100% sure because in order to know that I would need to know what your Gross Pay is.


    As I mentioned in my previous answer one of the criteria required to be eligible is that your Gross Pay is now less than €960 per week.

    Now despite BlackWhite's input, I am not talking about the Gross Pay plus the Subsidy - I am talking about the Gross Pay in isolation of the subsidy.

    But here is the thing.

    For the purpose of The Wage Subsidy Scheme, the Gross Pay is the payment that the employer is paying you before any pension deductions are made, and they would also include any BIK also.

    So you need to look at your Gross Pay before the pension is deducted, and based on the ARNWP that you mentioned, I am guessing that a 30% pay cut is not going to be enough to bring you under €960

    And, if your Gross Pay is not under €960 then you are not eligible for the subsidy.

    The other thing to keep in mind is that I know you mentioned that your Gross Pay has been cut by 30%, and I know in real terms that is an awful lot

    But the other requirement is that your Gross Pay has to drop by at least 20% below your ARNWP.

    In your case with an ARNWP of €968 that means that your Gross Pay before pension deductions has to drop to €774.40 in order to be eligible for the wage subsidy scheme.

    Jason



    P.S. With respect to my suspicion that you are not eligible its based on the fact that your drop in Gross Pay is 30%. If you take a tax rate 20% plus PRSI and USC then this comes very close to 30% and therefore a 30% drop in Gross Pay (before pension) may not be enough to bring you under €960

    This is not correct.

    Since the move the operational scheme, every employee can be made eligible for the scheme, on the basis that Revenue's definition of Gross Pay is excluding the subsidy.
    The problem is, that their pay may need to be cut still further to make them eligible for the scheme.


    Take the example of €968 ARNWP quoted above.

    Putting that employee on the scheme would give a Subsidy of €205 per week, and a max Top-Up of €755 per week (to bring the total to the max cap of €960 on the scheme).

    Per Revenue guidance, the Reduction in Pay is calculated as 755/968 - 78% of ARNWP - which falls into the guidance of "more than 60% and not more than 80% of the ARNWP, a subsidy of €205 is applicable."

    (if calculated on the €350 subsidy level, the max top-up allowed would be €580 so as not to breach the 60% of ARNWP provision).



    The scheme is very simple on this.

    If an employee's ARNWP was between €960 - €1016.67 then, in order to be eligible for the scheme and pay them the maximum allowable, they can be paid a subsidy of €205 and a top-up of €755 weekly.
    Otherwise, the employer can choose to pay them a subsidy of €350, and a top of of no more than 60% of their ARNWP (which will result in less than a €960 in aggregate for the employee).

    If an employee's ARNWP was greater than €1016.67, then their employer can pay the subsidy of €350, plus a top-up of up to a maximum of €610.

    This is the tier 1 and tier 2 that appears in the Revenue CSV file.


    If someone was on payroll with the same employer in both Jan and Feb, had been on ARNWP of €968 during that period and has suffered a pay cut since then, and the employer is eligible to participate in the scheme - then there's no possible way for the employee not to be eligible.




    We've queried this with Revenue and this has been confirmed to us - we've just decided not to do so as we've taken a policy of only applying the scheme to employees where it's possible to top-up all the way to their ARNWP.


    Take the example of our MD. His ARNWP per the Revenue file is over €4k per week.
    If we decided to, we could place him on the scheme. However, we'd be limited to claiming €350 and topping up by €610 - dropping his aggregate from over €4k to €960.


    In Fungie's case - his employer could put him on the scheme by dropping his aggregate to €960 (subsidy of €205 and top-up of €755).

    Given he's already suffered a pay-cut it seems his employer is missing a trick on this - given they could apply the scheme and most likely leave Fungie in a better position than he is now, whilst actually costing the employer less (and that's before factoring in the ER PRSI savings also).


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭collsoft


    Fair enough BlackWhite,

    I do make mistakes sometimes, and when I do, and I realise it I come back and acknowledge it - I never claim to be perfect. I can also say that I have sometimes misread users posts, and when I do and I realise it I do come back and acknowledge it.

    But I still disagree with your point that I am mixing up Gross Pay with the Subsidy, and I think there might be an element of you misreading people's questions/answers, and indeed you are mixing up eligiblity with tapering. Tapering is a function of both the Gross Pay and the Subsidy and it acts to ensure that Pay + Subsidy cant exceed €960 - but it doesnt occur if you are not eligible in the first place.

    The question from fungie was about eligibility for the wage subsidy - nothing else.

    My first point was

    "1) The Gross Pay from the employer must be less than €960 per week (€4160 per month)"

    I stick by that, and just to be clear I am talking about Gross Pay only here, and I am not talking about the subsidy in any way what so ever.

    To be fair, i didnt explain that Gross Pay is your Pay before any allowable tax deductions such pensions, and is inclusive of BIK. You are allowed to reduce it by any salary sacrifices such as "Bike To Work" or "Tax Saver Travel Tickets".

    Revenue have published a list of reasons why they reject ineligible subsidy claims from employers - see section 5.6 of the FAQ for the full list of rejection reasons.

    Specifically in 5.6.8 they list "Subsidy not payable as gross pay exceeded the €960 threshold"

    Also, in 5.6.7 they state another rejection reason as "Subsidy not payable as gross pay greater than 80% of ARNWP"

    Now this is exactly what I said in my answer, so obviously Revenue don't know what they are talking about when they talk about Gross Pay either.

    BlackWhite, in your postscript to your post you stated that "EDIT - just to add - the 20% “pay cut” requirement for anyone earning over €960 is misleading. Revenue define the pay cut as on Gross Pay - so anyone switching from earning over €960 to being on the subsidy scheme plus a top up to a overall total of €960 will always meet the requirement - due to the subsidy not being counted in gross pay."

    That is simply incorrect. The cut to Gross Pay is always measured against the ARNWP, not the Gross Pay as you stated. Again, I would refer to section 5.6.7 of the Revenue FAQ which states that you are ineligible if your current Gross Pay is more than 80% of your ARNWP (or has not fallen by more than 20% below it)

    Also, refer to section 4.17 which deals with cases where "For ARNWP more than €960, and current gross pay is below €960 per week".

    Part 3 of this section clearly states that "Where the employee’s current gross pay, as reported in the payroll submission, represents - more than 80% of the ARNWP, no subsidy is payable and J9 PRSI class should not be applied (this is Tier 3)"

    Now if you read fungie's folow up post you will see that his ARNWP is €968. That means that his current Gross Pay has to fall to below €774.40 (€968 @ 80%) in order to qualify for the subsidy (20% below ARNWP). I dont know what his actual Gross Pay was beofe, but I am pretty sure that his Gross Pay will have to have fallen a lot more than 20% in order to bring it below €774.40

    Now I appreciate that I may have been given some latitude with posts, but I think its fair to say that I have always been up front and honest about who I am and what my background is.

    My reason for posting here has been to try and help people with the scheme, plain and simple, and most of my posts were during a time where there was great uncertaintely and very little information.

    I take great offence at being described as a "Shill" - A Shill is "an accomplice of a hawker, gambler or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others" - I have always been upfront about who I am and I have never tried to pretend otherwise, but perhaps again Im not reading your post correctly.


    blackwhite wrote: »
    Except - you’ve used the phrase “gross pay” to mean two different things in your explanation. So maybe you don’t know what it means as well as you think you do :pac:

    In your point 1 - you’ve used Gross Pay to mean Subsidy plus Top-Up (the bit than must be less than €960 in total)

    In point 2 you use the phrase Gross Pay to refer to the top up (which must be at least 20% reduced from the ARNWP


    I was pointing out that you’ve managed to use the same phrase to mean two completely different things - and you’re response is to be condescending?


    For someone who’s being given a hell of a lot of leeway with the site rules to shill his product, you aren’t the best at reading people’s (who might be potential customers) responses.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭collsoft


    Hi BlackWhite,

    You are not correct to say that "If someone was on payroll with the same employer in both Jan and Feb, had been on ARNWP of €968 during that period and has suffered a pay cut since then, and the employer is eligible to participate in the scheme - then there's no possible way for the employee not to be eligible."

    Taking Fungie's example ARNWP of €968 - if his Gross Pay was €775 then he is not eligible for any subsidy.

    I take your point that any employee can be made eligible if you cut their pay enough - I never said anything to the contrary.

    But in Fungie's example he said that he had suffered a Pay Cut of 30% and his employer was telling him that he was not eligible for the scheme, and he wanted to know why.

    I simply set out some of the rules of eligibility so that Fungie could look at his current gross pay and see why he may be ineligible given his current pay from his employer.

    Sure, if the employer cuts it more then he will eventually become eligible, but its impossible to say if fungie is going to be better off by dropping his Gross Pay (before pension) down to €755 or staying on his current reduced salary


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭collsoft


    Hi BlackWhite,

    Fungie's original question was not about could he be made eligible for the scheme.

    He asked if he was eligible for the subsidy given his current level of pay .

    Fungie mentioned in his second post that "My take home pay for May was 25% less than my take home pay for the Jan-Feb period."

    I will assume that he means his net pay, and I will assume that there are not other tax free adjustments such as expenses, country money etc.

    So, if his ARNWP for Jan/Feb was €968, and if his current net pay is 25% less than this as he stated, it must be around €726.

    As he mentioned he is not on the scheme, and I am assuming no other tax free payments, so if you add back the PAYE, PRSI, USC and pension deductions to his current net pay in order to find out what his current gross Pay is, I am pretty sure that it will be higher than €774.40 (the pay above which an employee becomes ineligible for the scheme on an ARNWP of €968), and indeed I would suspect that his Gross Pay is likely to be above the €960 mark too.


    blackwhite wrote: »
    This is not correct.

    Since the move the operational scheme, every employee can be made eligible for the scheme, on the basis that Revenue's definition of Gross Pay is excluding the subsidy.
    The problem is, that their pay may need to be cut still further to make them eligible for the scheme.


    Take the example of €968 ARNWP quoted above.

    Putting that employee on the scheme would give a Subsidy of €205 per week, and a max Top-Up of €755 per week (to bring the total to the max cap of €960 on the scheme).

    Per Revenue guidance, the Reduction in Pay is calculated as 755/968 - 78% of ARNWP - which falls into the guidance of "more than 60% and not more than 80% of the ARNWP, a subsidy of €205 is applicable."

    (if calculated on the €350 subsidy level, the max top-up allowed would be €580 so as not to breach the 60% of ARNWP provision).



    The scheme is very simple on this.

    If an employee's ARNWP was between €960 - €1016.67 then, in order to be eligible for the scheme and pay them the maximum allowable, they can be paid a subsidy of €205 and a top-up of €755 weekly.
    Otherwise, the employer can choose to pay them a subsidy of €350, and a top of of no more than 60% of their ARNWP (which will result in less than a €960 in aggregate for the employee).

    If an employee's ARNWP was greater than €1016.67, then their employer can pay the subsidy of €350, plus a top-up of up to a maximum of €610.

    This is the tier 1 and tier 2 that appears in the Revenue CSV file.


    If someone was on payroll with the same employer in both Jan and Feb, had been on ARNWP of €968 during that period and has suffered a pay cut since then, and the employer is eligible to participate in the scheme - then there's no possible way for the employee not to be eligible.




    We've queried this with Revenue and this has been confirmed to us - we've just decided not to do so as we've taken a policy of only applying the scheme to employees where it's possible to top-up all the way to their ARNWP.


    Take the example of our MD. His ARNWP per the Revenue file is over €4k per week.
    If we decided to, we could place him on the scheme. However, we'd be limited to claiming €350 and topping up by €610 - dropping his aggregate from over €4k to €960.


    In Fungie's case - his employer could put him on the scheme by dropping his aggregate to €960 (subsidy of €205 and top-up of €755).

    Given he's already suffered a pay-cut it seems his employer is missing a trick on this - given they could apply the scheme and most likely leave Fungie in a better position than he is now, whilst actually costing the employer less (and that's before factoring in the ER PRSI savings also).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,074 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    collsoft wrote: »
    Hi BlackWhite,

    Fungie's original question was not about could he be made eligible for the scheme.

    He asked if he was eligible for the subsidy given his current level of pay .

    Fungie mentioned in his second post that "My take home pay for May was 25% less than my take home pay for the Jan-Feb period."

    I will assume that he means his net pay, and I will assume that there are not other tax free adjustments such as expenses, country money etc.

    So, if his ARNWP for Jan/Feb was €968, and if his current net pay is 25% less than this as he stated, it must be around €726.

    As he mentioned he is not on the scheme, and I am assuming no other tax free payments, so if you add back the PAYE, PRSI, USC and pension deductions to his current net pay in order to find out what his current gross Pay is, I am pretty sure that it will be higher than €774.40 (the pay above which an employee becomes ineligible for the scheme on an ARNWP of €968), and indeed I would suspect that his Gross Pay is likely to be above the €960 mark too.


    If his ARNWP was €968, and he's suffered a cut in take home pay of approx 25% - then there's no way that it isn't possible for his employer to put him on the scheme, and have it arranged that the actual cost to the employer is lower than it currently is, and that fungie'e actual take-home pay is better than it currently is under the pay cuts.


    You keep missing the point that the eligibilty is now based on whatever the Gross Pay included on the current subsidy claim is - what his gross pay on his last payroll was is irrelevant. All that matters is what the ARNWP based on Jan/Feb is, and what is the Gross Pay submitted as part of any subsidy claim (and the gross pay in this case is effectively the top-up).

    You've a very good software product - but you're making some fundamental errors in terms of how tax planning for an employee should be done on this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,074 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    collsoft wrote: »
    Hi BlackWhite,

    Fungie's original question was not about could he be made eligible for the scheme.

    He asked if he was eligible for the subsidy given his current level of pay .

    Fungie mentioned in his second post that "My take home pay for May was 25% less than my take home pay for the Jan-Feb period."

    I will assume that he means his net pay, and I will assume that there are not other tax free adjustments such as expenses, country money etc.

    So, if his ARNWP for Jan/Feb was €968, and if his current net pay is 25% less than this as he stated, it must be around €726.

    As he mentioned he is not on the scheme, and I am assuming no other tax free payments, so if you add back the PAYE, PRSI, USC and pension deductions to his current net pay in order to find out what his current gross Pay is, I am pretty sure that it will be higher than €774.40 (the pay above which an employee becomes ineligible for the scheme on an ARNWP of €968), and indeed I would suspect that his Gross Pay is likely to be above the €960 mark too.


    Just on the calculations you've thrown in.

    Assuming his current net is approx €726 - then Subsidy of €205, plus a top-up of €755 would be the alternative by being switched over to the scheme.

    Assuming tax credits of €3,300 and standard cut-off of €34,550 that would leave a total of

    Subsidy €205.00
    Gross Pay €755.00
    Total Pay €960.00

    PAYE (on 755 only) €105.65
    USC (on 755 only) €20.66

    Net Pay on Payslip €833.68

    Revenue Reconciliation at end of year

    Income Tax €82
    USC €11.48

    Which would leave a final weekly pay of €740.21

    Switching him onto the scheme would ultimately cost the employer less (€758.78 per week), and would also result in him being better off overall by approx €15 per week


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭collsoft


    Fair enough,

    I agree with you calculations, but there is one thing you are forgetting - his pension deduction.

    The current net pay of €726 is after the pension has been deducted, where as the figure of €755 is before it is deducted.

    I dont know what his pension deduction is, but lets take an example of €25.

    And assuming that all both the Gross Pay and Subsidy are going to be subject to PAYE and USC at year end, then his figures are as follows;

    Pay subject to PAYE = €960 - €25 = €935
    Pay subject to USC = €960

    Assuming basic tax credits and standard USC bands his taxes are as follows;

    PAYE: €174.77
    USC: €29.89

    So his net pay is Gross - PAYE - USC - Pension + Subsidy = €730.67 - so ok he is a little bit better off on that, but it was only a €25 pension.

    Lets try a €50 pension

    Pay subject to PAYE = €960 - €50= €910
    Pay subject to USC = €960

    PAYE: €164.77
    USC: €29.89

    Net Pay is €755- €164.77 - €29.89 - €50 + €205 = €715.34 - so he is a little bit worse off being on the subsidy in this case.


    Just for the record, I never ever said that the subsidy or eligibility was based on "gross pay on his last payroll". I have never referred to any previous gross Pay at all other than to say that you do not measure your drop against it.


    Likewise i never ever give tax planning advice - way above my pay grade. I only ever answer questions about the rules of the scheme.

    Fungie asked why his employer told him that he was not eligible given his current situation.

    He did not ask what needed to be done in order for him to get a subsidy.

    He could also take a pay cut down to €610 and receive a subsidy of €350. The question would he want to.

    And just for the record I'm still claiming not to be a "Shill" - i would much rather see myself as Dell Boy rather than Rodney


    blackwhite wrote: »
    Just on the calculations you've thrown in.

    Assuming his current net is approx €726 - then Subsidy of €205, plus a top-up of €755 would be the alternative by being switched over to the scheme.

    Assuming tax credits of €3,300 and standard cut-off of €34,550 that would leave a total of

    Subsidy €205.00
    Gross Pay €755.00
    Total Pay €960.00

    PAYE (on 755 only) €105.65
    USC (on 755 only) €20.66

    Net Pay on Payslip €833.68

    Revenue Reconciliation at end of year

    Income Tax €82
    USC €11.48

    Which would leave a final weekly pay of €740.21

    Switching him onto the scheme would ultimately cost the employer less (€758.78 per week), and would also result in him being better off overall by approx €15 per week


  • Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭je551e


    If someone wasn’t paid during Jan/ Feb but paid in March , are they eligible for the scheme?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭collsoft


    Unfortunately no they are not eligible.

    The only exception to this are people who were on maternity, adoptive or parental leave during Jan/Feb and who have since come back to work
    je551e wrote: »
    If someone wasn’t paid during Jan/ Feb but paid in March , are they eligible for the scheme?


  • Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭je551e


    collsoft wrote: »
    Unfortunately no they are not eligible.

    The only exception to this are people who were on maternity, adoptive or parental leave during Jan/Feb and who have since come back to work

    Great thanks thought so but wasn’t 100%


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭collsoft


    I will admit BlackWhite that you got my goat up last night when you said I was using two different definitions of Gross Pay - I was not, and if I ever did then it would be time for me to hang up my boots and call it a day.

    For the record, I write the calc code in our product so I have a pretty good understanding what Gross pay is.

    On one level the wage subsidy scheme is pretty simple - its just a non taxable payment being made to an employee - but it takes 71 pages of an FAQ to try explain it, so in reality its anything but simple.

    There is a lot of terminology and that confuses people, and I try my best to keep the terminology as simple as I can, and to make sure it relates to what both employers and employees understand, or in line with what they are comparing it to (ROS screens or payslips etc).

    And then telling me that I was a "Shill", that got my goat up even more because honestly thats not what I was trying to do.

    I can tell you that when the new tiered calculations were announced it took me the best part of a week to get my head around the operation of the calculations when they were announced. And in true Revenue fashion, they didnt publish the updated FAQ until the new system went live so it left people under a lot of pressure trying to understand how it works.

    So we put a lot of effort into trying to help people as best we could, and we did things like release a free online calculator and an Excel spreadsheet with TWSS user function so that people could get to grips with the scheme and see how it would impact on their Payroll.

    I see a lot of stuff on our helpdesk where employers make a lot of mistakes in operating the scheme so in part my answers are influenced by that experience.

    We are also seeing a lot of employers coming into the scheme now as the economy reopens and while they may have heard about the scheme, they are not very aware of the actual details and so in a lot of ways we have had to go back to the beginning in trying to explain the scheme to them - a second wave so to speak.

    So BlackWhite, if you feel that if I have been given "hell of a lot of leeway with the site rules to shill his product" I will bow to your experience as a longstanding member of the site and refrain from confusing anybody


  • Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭fungie


    Thanks Collsoft and blackwhite. I don't need to know exactly if I'm eligible, it seems I'm right on the borderline. My original point was that I don't think my company is doing it correctly, I know I'm in the top quartile of earners as I took a proportionate salary cut. If I'm on the boundary then 75% probably can get the scheme but only about 20% are. There is a clear discrepancy here. Considering there have been large scale redundancies, I believe some of these could of been avoided if the scheme was administered correctly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 949 ✭✭✭Renjit


    je551e wrote: »
    Great thanks thought so but wasn’t 100%

    Refer to this document. It has more details.
    https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/documents/pmod-topics/guidance-on-operation-of-temporary-covid-wage-subsidy-scheme.pdf
    What if an employee was not paid their usual pay in January or February 2020?

    There can be cases where an employee was in employment but who did not receive normal pay in January or
    February 2020, such as reduced pay, maternity leave, illness benefit or off-pay leave. In such cases the employer can
    either:
    • operate the scheme based on Average Revenue Net Weekly Pay, or
    • pay the employee the appropriate wages without receiving a subsidy refund


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  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭collsoft


    Hi Renjit,

    I always have a small laugh when I read that particular item in the FAQ (item 4.6).

    It is typical Revenue answer that actually tells you nothing.

    On the one hand, you can choose to use the ARNWP which is based on the Jan/Feb wages which we have already established were not normal.

    Or

    You can just not use the wage subsidy scheme.

    In other words - take it or leave it, but there is nothing you can really do.

    Why not just say that in the first place.

    I have spoken to employers who have taken the answer in the FAQ to mean that you can calculate your own ARNWP based on some other period other than Jan/Feb and use that instead - that is absolutely not the case

    Renjit wrote: »


  • Registered Users Posts: 265 ✭✭Will23


    Hi collsoft,

    I’ve been following this thread for a while, from the early days when things were much more confusing. I just wanted to say I’ve found your willingness to help folks out on this thread hugely beneficial. I’m sure things get lost in translation on these boards all the time, but you’re giving folks a great free service and I’m sure it’s appreciated by most who use the board. Thanks.

    Will


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭collsoft


    Thanks Will I very much appreciate that, you are very welcome.

    Jason


    Will23 wrote: »
    Hi collsoft,

    I’ve been following this thread for a while, from the early days when things were much more confusing. I just wanted to say I’ve found your willingness to help folks out on this thread hugely beneficial. I’m sure things get lost in translation on these boards all the time, but you’re giving folks a great free service and I’m sure it’s appreciated by most who use the board. Thanks.

    Will


  • Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭tiredblondie


    Hi All
    Bit of an awkward one (to me anyway!) but would appreciate any advise if possible!

    At the beginning of March, i was off sick for 8 weeks - my job paid me for this - social welfare went to the company.
    My payslip was the same as normal for the 8 weeks, no mention of social welfare and them doing a top up or whatever.
    Normal 2 week salary is €1500 before tax - all standard tax bands.
    First payslip when i returned, the payslip said Social Welfare €1421 Employer payment €79 - i got a refund of tax of approx €500.
    In the meantime, i received a new tax cert from Revenue stating i owe €284 in tax on the illness benefit.
    2nd pay after i returned - company went on Wage Subsidy Scheme - €350/week and they top up the difference. My wages was down approx €100 over the 2 weeks to normal (i was told this was due to a delay in a new RPN being issued after illness benefit)
    Since then, my wages have been the exact same take home pay (gross pay is reduced a lot which i believe to be correct as it is based on net pay)
    Many others in the company that i have spoke to, have said they are up approx €300 every two weeks since the wage subsidy scheme - they would normally receive some commission on top of their salary plus they got a bonus paid in February so their average pay is actually higher on wage subsidy scheme to what it technically should be.
    When i questioned mine, i was told no it's correct, and that i am in a better position to those getting refunds as they would owe it back plus the tax on the wage subsidy to revenue.
    I presume that i will owe tax too on the wage subsidy of either 20% or 40% which is a huge amount for someone who hasn't actually gotten any tax back like everyone else!!

    My main question here is, even though the job paid me for the 8 weeks off and they received the illness benefit, should the illness benefit have been included on my payslip when i returned to work??


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭collsoft


    Hi Fungie,

    You are welcome.

    It is entirely possible that your employer is not operating the scheme correctly, but he may also be making a conscious decision not to put many on the scheme

    Some employers are experiencing a lot of pushback from employees.

    A lot of employees see the subsidy as something that belongs exclusively to them, and it was to be used to pay them when they were not working.

    As employees go back to work they are telling employers that by using the subsidy they are not actually paying them in line with their contract of employment and this is causign some employers to think hard about using the scheme.

    The other thing is that the scheme will have a short lifetime (currently the end of August) and some employers are looking more at the medium term outlook and deciding what level of staffing they will need or be able to support once the scheme ends. And that is before you even start thinking about Brexit.

    Current Government projections are for unemployment rates to remain at around 17% at year end - that's pretty high.

    Revenue gave me some stats last week on the submissions made to revenue using our software

    In Jan/Feb/Mar there was a consistent 30K employers using our software to submit to Revenue.

    In Apr/May that dropped to 20K - so one third of our employers just stopped paying wages full stop during that period.

    Of the 20K that remained, 45% of those had availed of the wage subsidy scheme.

    So all in all, almost 80% of our employers are on some form of State support - that is going to be very hard to recover from in the short term.

    Jason


    fungie wrote: »
    Thanks Collsoft and blackwhite. I don't need to know exactly if I'm eligible, it seems I'm right on the borderline. My original point was that I don't think my company is doing it correctly, I know I'm in the top quartile of earners as I took a proportionate salary cut. If I'm on the boundary then 75% probably can get the scheme but only about 20% are. There is a clear discrepancy here. Considering there have been large scale redundancies, I believe some of these could of been avoided if the scheme was administered correctly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭collsoft


    Hi TiredBlondie,

    Well thats a long question!!!

    Just to start, Illness Benefit is subject to PAYE (Income Tax) but not to USC or PRSI. See Revenue Document here>>

    The correct procedure to collect the tax is for Revenue to reduce your Tax Credits and issue your employer with a revised RPN to collect the Income Tax going forward. See Here>>

    If the Illness Benefit Payment was made directly to your employer, then your employer should have passed it on to you as a Tax Free Payment and not charged you any PAYE, USC or PRSI.

    If I am reading your question correctly it sounds like your employer just paid your normal gross pay over the 8 weeks which means that you efficiently paid PAYE, USC and PRSI on your illness benefit and you are now paying Income Tax on the double.

    If this is the case then you need to talk to your employer about it because you are out of pocket - but from a Revenue perspective it looks like you have paid the correct amount of PAYE and USC.

    Going back and changing things retrospectively is going to be difficult because that would change you net pay in the 8 week period but those amounts have already been paid etc.

    On thing you could suggest is that your employer pays you the illness benefit over the next 8 weeks as a tax free payment, and reduces your Gross Pay accordingly.

    But I am pretty sure you have payed too much PAYE, USC and PRSI

    Hi All
    Bit of an awkward one (to me anyway!) but would appreciate any advise if possible!

    At the beginning of March, i was off sick for 8 weeks - my job paid me for this - social welfare went to the company.
    My payslip was the same as normal for the 8 weeks, no mention of social welfare and them doing a top up or whatever.
    Normal 2 week salary is €1500 before tax - all standard tax bands.
    First payslip when i returned, the payslip said Social Welfare €1421 Employer payment €79 - i got a refund of tax of approx €500.
    In the meantime, i received a new tax cert from Revenue stating i owe €284 in tax on the illness benefit.
    2nd pay after i returned - company went on Wage Subsidy Scheme - €350/week and they top up the difference. My wages was down approx €100 over the 2 weeks to normal (i was told this was due to a delay in a new RPN being issued after illness benefit)
    Since then, my wages have been the exact same take home pay (gross pay is reduced a lot which i believe to be correct as it is based on net pay)
    Many others in the company that i have spoke to, have said they are up approx €300 every two weeks since the wage subsidy scheme - they would normally receive some commission on top of their salary plus they got a bonus paid in February so their average pay is actually higher on wage subsidy scheme to what it technically should be.
    When i questioned mine, i was told no it's correct, and that i am in a better position to those getting refunds as they would owe it back plus the tax on the wage subsidy to revenue.
    I presume that i will owe tax too on the wage subsidy of either 20% or 40% which is a huge amount for someone who hasn't actually gotten any tax back like everyone else!!

    My main question here is, even though the job paid me for the 8 weeks off and they received the illness benefit, should the illness benefit have been included on my payslip when i returned to work??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,097 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    @ Tiredblondie

    Could you be on Week 1 basis?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,097 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    Has anyone restarted someone who has been on temporary layoff yet?
    I need to restart a few in the next couple of weeks and we will be putting them on the Subsidy scheme but notice that all those who went on temporary layoff are not on the import file.

    with the exception of 1 guy who left before it all kicked off :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭tiredblondie


    .


  • Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭tiredblondie


    collsoft wrote: »
    Hi TiredBlondie,

    Well thats a long question!!!

    Just to start, Illness Benefit is subject to PAYE (Income Tax) but not to USC or PRSI. See Revenue Document here>>

    The correct procedure to collect the tax is for Revenue to reduce your Tax Credits and issue your employer with a revised RPN to collect the Income Tax going forward. See Here>>

    If the Illness Benefit Payment was made directly to your employer, then your employer should have passed it on to you as a Tax Free Payment and not charged you any PAYE, USC or PRSI.

    If I am reading your question correctly it sounds like your employer just paid your normal gross pay over the 8 weeks which means that you efficiently paid PAYE, USC and PRSI on your illness benefit and you are now paying Income Tax on the double.

    If this is the case then you need to talk to your employer about it because you are out of pocket - but from a Revenue perspective it looks like you have paid the correct amount of PAYE and USC.

    Going back and changing things retrospectively is going to be difficult because that would change you net pay in the 8 week period but those amounts have already been paid etc.

    On thing you could suggest is that your employer pays you the illness benefit over the next 8 weeks as a tax free payment, and reduces your Gross Pay accordingly.

    But I am pretty sure you have payed too much PAYE, USC and PRSI

    Yes, they paid me normal salary every 2 weeks of €1500 for 8 weeks - all normal standard taxes paid.

    Then they paid me "tax free" €1421 when I returned (7 weeks x €203) plus €79 salary - total is €1500 before tax (new Rpn hadn't issued at this stage" - came out with extra €500 that week

    Then rpn issued and I went on wage subsidy scheme - my wage was €100 down apparently due to previous being up - so I thought the extra €400 related to wage subsidy and tax refunds.
    Tax credits also reduced from €125 to €116 - this relating to the €284 I owe revenue in tax for illness benefit.

    2 salaries received since, €700 wage subsidy (2 week salary) and top up of €498 - small refund of tax issued but take home pay is the same as pre covid.

    Everyone else in work is coming out with a few hundred extra which they were advised to put away to cover tax owed on wage subsidy payment - I have nothing extra to cover that!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭tiredblondie


    Yes, they paid me normal salary every 2 weeks of €1500 for 8 weeks - all normal standard taxes paid.

    Then they paid me "tax free" €1421 when I returned (7 weeks x €203) plus €79 salary - total is €1500 before tax (new Rpn hadn't issued at this stage" - came out with extra €500 that week

    Then rpn issued and I went on wage subsidy scheme - my wage was €100 down apparently due to previous being up - so I thought the extra €400 related to wage subsidy and tax refunds.
    Tax credits also reduced from €125 to €116 - this relating to the €284 I owe revenue in tax for illness benefit.

    2 salaries received since, €700 wage subsidy (2 week salary) and top up of €498 - small refund of tax issued but take home pay is the same as pre covid.

    Everyone else in work is coming out with a few hundred extra which they were advised to put away to cover tax owed on wage subsidy payment - I have nothing extra to cover that!


    I can put up screen shots of all payslips if that helps?


  • Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭tiredblondie


    Seve OB wrote: »
    @ Tiredblondie

    Could you be on Week 1 basis?

    How can I tell if I am?


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭collsoft


    Hi Seve,

    If you rehire an employee and register their new Employment ID with Revenue today, they will update your CSV file tonight and you can download it tomorrow. They run that process every week night but not over the weekend - have to wait until Monday night.

    Revenue will match the new ID to whatever the employee had in Jan/Feb and base the ARNWP on whatever earnings they had under the old Employment ID.

    Couple of things to watch out for.

    Dont process any J9 until the employee is in the CSV file, otherwise you wont get paid. You need to wait for the overnight process to run.

    The employee needs to be sure and sign off from PUP.

    If your rehired employees are paid monthly then you may need to put them back on as weekly for the remainder of June.

    If you process a monthly payroll for June, Revenue will issue you with a full month refund of the subsidy. This will be notified to Social Welfare and they will seek repayment of any PUP that the employee received for the first few weeks in June.

    Jason


    Seve OB wrote: »
    Has anyone restarted someone who has been on temporary layoff yet?
    I need to restart a few in the next couple of weeks and we will be putting them on the Subsidy scheme but notice that all those who went on temporary layoff are not on the import file.

    with the exception of 1 guy who left before it all kicked off :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭collsoft


    Hi TiredBlondie,

    Then I think that your employer has run things correctly, and I think on the face of it everything is correct.

    Its very difficult to compare your wages to other people's wages as everybody has a unique set of circumstances and its hard to compare like with like.

    With respect to the €500 better off you were that week you came back - that is most likely the refund of your USC and PRSI arising from the tax free payment that particular week rather than anything else.

    I am presuming that you were only put on the wage subsidy scheme the next pay period after you got the €1421.


    Yes, they paid me normal salary every 2 weeks of €1500 for 8 weeks - all normal standard taxes paid.

    Then they paid me "tax free" €1421 when I returned (7 weeks x €203) plus €79 salary - total is €1500 before tax (new Rpn hadn't issued at this stage" - came out with extra €500 that week

    Then rpn issued and I went on wage subsidy scheme - my wage was €100 down apparently due to previous being up - so I thought the extra €400 related to wage subsidy and tax refunds.
    Tax credits also reduced from €125 to €116 - this relating to the €284 I owe revenue in tax for illness benefit.

    2 salaries received since, €700 wage subsidy (2 week salary) and top up of €498 - small refund of tax issued but take home pay is the same as pre covid.

    Everyone else in work is coming out with a few hundred extra which they were advised to put away to cover tax owed on wage subsidy payment - I have nothing extra to cover that!


  • Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭tiredblondie


    collsoft wrote: »
    Hi TiredBlondie,

    Then I think that your employer has run things correctly, and I think on the face of it everything is correct.

    Its very difficult to compare your wages to other people's wages as everybody has a unique set of circumstances and its hard to compare like with like.

    With respect to the €500 better off you were that week you came back - that is most likely the refund of your USC and PRSI arising from the tax free payment that particular week rather than anything else.

    I am presuming that you were only put on the wage subsidy scheme the next pay period after you got the €1421.


    Yes, the €500 increase i presume would have been due to tax refund for the 8 weeks of the additional €203 (it would work out the same if they paid me tax free €203 per week plus a top up for illness benefit to the way they done it which was include it as a bulk amount when i had returned)

    I went on wage subsidy for the following pay run - and since have received no tax back - if i'm only paying tax on €498 for 2 weeks, would there not be some rebate due to me? Below is from my revenue online - i can see tax refund on it but take home pay when including the €700 wage subsidy is the same as before.


    Pay date10/06/2020
    Gross pay€498.04
    Pay for Income Tax€423.04
    Income Tax paid-€31.40
    Pay for USC€498.04
    USC paid-€4.21
    Employee PRSI paid€0.00
    LPT deducted€0.00


  • Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭tiredblondie


    Yes, the €500 increase i presume would have been due to tax refund for the 8 weeks of the additional €203 (it would work out the same if they paid me tax free €203 per week plus a top up for illness benefit to the way they done it which was include it as a bulk amount when i had returned)

    I went on wage subsidy for the following pay run - and since have received no tax back - if i'm only paying tax on €498 for 2 weeks, would there not be some rebate due to me? Below is from my revenue online - i can see tax refund on it but take home pay when including the €700 wage subsidy is the same as before.

    Pay dateGross payPay for Income TaxIncome Tax paidPay for USCUSC paidEmployee PRSI paidLPT deductedAction
    Pay date10/06/2020
    Gross pay€498.04
    Pay for Income Tax€423.04
    Income Tax paid-€31.40
    Pay for USC€498.04
    USC paid-€4.21
    Employee PRSI paid€0.00
    LPT deducted€0.00




    This would be a "normal" salary

    Pay date
    15/04/2020
    Gross pay
    €1,500.00
    Pay for Income Tax
    €1,425.00
    Income Tax paid
    €171.53
    Pay for USC
    €1,500.00
    USC paid
    €40.87
    Employee PRSI paid
    €60.00
    LPT deducted
    €0.00


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭collsoft


    Ill be honest and say that sounds about correct.

    The difference between yourself and the other employees is that you have already had your tax credits adjusted down because of the Illness Benefit.

    Generally speaking going on the Wage Subsidy would not bring you back to your normal net pay - the only thing masking this is the tax refunds that people get.

    if you don't get a tax refund then your net pay is generally lower than it was before on the scheme.
    Yes, the €500 increase i presume would have been due to tax refund for the 8 weeks of the additional €203 (it would work out the same if they paid me tax free €203 per week plus a top up for illness benefit to the way they done it which was include it as a bulk amount when i had returned)

    I went on wage subsidy for the following pay run - and since have received no tax back - if i'm only paying tax on €498 for 2 weeks, would there not be some rebate due to me? Below is from my revenue online - i can see tax refund on it but take home pay when including the €700 wage subsidy is the same as before.


    Pay date10/06/2020
    Gross pay€498.04
    Pay for Income Tax€423.04
    Income Tax paid-€31.40
    Pay for USC€498.04
    USC paid-€4.21
    Employee PRSI paid€0.00
    LPT deducted€0.00


  • Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭tiredblondie


    collsoft wrote: »
    Ill be honest and say that sounds about correct.

    The difference between yourself and the other employees is that you have already had your tax credits adjusted down because of the Illness Benefit.

    Generally speaking going on the Wage Subsidy would not bring you back to your normal net pay - the only thing masking this is the tax refunds that people get.

    if you don't get a tax refund then your net pay is generally lower than it was before on the scheme.

    Thanks for looking at it for me - i just couldn't get my head around it.

    So basically, come the end of the year when revenue starts taxing the wage subsidy payment, i'm going to owe a fairly high amount (350 x 20% or 40%)
    Same as everyone else in here, only they've gotten the rebates now to cover it whereas i am going to be well out of pocket :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 949 ✭✭✭Renjit


    collsoft wrote: »
    Hi Renjit,

    I always have a small laugh when I read that particular item in the FAQ (item 4.6).

    It is typical Revenue answer that actually tells you nothing.

    On the one hand, you can choose to use the ARNWP which is based on the Jan/Feb wages which we have already established were not normal.

    Or

    You can just not use the wage subsidy scheme.

    In other words - take it or leave it, but there is nothing you can really do.

    Why not just say that in the first place.

    I have spoken to employers who have taken the answer in the FAQ to mean that you can calculate your own ARNWP based on some other period other than Jan/Feb and use that instead - that is absolutely not the case

    Yeah, I know that Jan-Feb ARNWP calculation will most likely not give the correct value. They could have used normal working hours per week as the basis for calculation. Average, in many cases, will be lower.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5 austenesque


    Hey hope someone can help!
    If you are on the wage subsidy scheme getting the 70% from the goverment only - Can the employer force you to move from working part time to full time without topping up your wage?


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