Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

gormdubhgorm · 04-06-2020 10:05am

banie01 wrote: »

##SNIP##

That is just projection and a nice soundbite 'because they knew'.
You could easily argue the opposite Trump supporters voted for Trump 'because they knew'. He aligned with what the electorate wanted.
Similar to how Danny Healey Rae gets slagged off everywhere outside Kerry.
He has made his views perfectly clear and got elected.

I mean Trump may act like an eejit and sound like an eejit a lot of the time but he engages with his electorate. That is what any politician does.

But you cannot deny that there has been a lot of twisting of Trumps statements for example. His comments on the wall and Mexicans. Many in the anti Trump camp say he is anti_Mexican and called them all rapists. He did not. He said that it was not the best and brightest that was getting into America. It was the murderers and rapists.

It is all about projection on who said a comment.

And if that does not suit the narrative the comment is changed.

Billy Mays · 04-06-2020 10:17am

So not all Mexicans are murderers and rapists, just the ones going to America

Cool, that sounds so much better

Quin_Dub · 04-06-2020 10:19am

Just a reminder to all.

Please don't just post Tweets or images/memes here.

By all means use content to support a point you are making , but links & images in isolation without your own commentary aren't up to standard.

Thanks

listermint · 04-06-2020 10:41am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

it's not a particularly good resting heart rate tbh

Yes, it is. Particularly for a man of his age and weight and diet.

Its also not a true value either.

But yes it is a good resting heart rate.

gormdubhgorm · 04-06-2020 10:47am

Billy Mays wrote: »

So not all Mexicans are murderers and rapists, just the ones going to America

Cool, that sounds so much better

See this is exactly what I mean you are now twisting it again to suit your own narrative. Simply put Trump does not want the dregs of Mexican society illegally entering the USA. Simple as that. 'America first' was the slogan. He got elected on the back of it married to the ineptness of Hillary Clinton and her insincerity.
Or do you live in utopian fairytale mindset?

Leroy42 · 04-06-2020 10:53am

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

See this is exactly what I mean you are now twisting it again to suit your own narrative. Simply put Trump does not want the dregs of Mexican society illegally entering the USA. Simple as that. He got elected on the back of it married to the ineptness of Hillary Clinton and her insincerity.
Or do you live in utopian fairytale mindset?

That may well be true, although you are giving him a lot of credit that I don't think he has given any indication of.

But it is how he phrased it. It it also very true that any US citizens are rapists, and drub dealers. And that many Mexicans are not.

So I am with him on the immigration policy idea, people looking to enter illegally should be sent home as it is unfair to those that try to adhere to the rules.

But language is important. He used peoples fear, and gave excuse for people to infer that Mexicans are the things he talked about. He should have been able to communicate his ideas in a proper fashion, but instead he went with the racism card, because he knew it played out well with certain people.

Doesn't make it right though.

Timberrrrrrrr · 04-06-2020 11:03am

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

See this is exactly what I mean you are now twisting it again to suit your own narrative. Simply put Trump does not want the dregs of Mexican society illegally entering the USA. Simple as that. 'America first' was the slogan. He got elected on the back of it married to the ineptness of Hillary Clinton and her insincerity.
Or do you live in utopian fairytale mindset?

How many illegal immigrants has Trump and other Republicans hired over the last few years I wonder.

duploelabs · 04-06-2020 11:11am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

How many illegal immigrants has Trump and other Republicans hired over the last few years I wonder.

Or married, in Trump's case

StringerBell · 04-06-2020 11:11am

One of the more interesting things to come out in polls for me lately was the recent one which indicated tRumps falling support from evangelicals, Catholics and from protestants. That's a big one, we could be looking at one of the biggest defeats in history if he were to lose the religious right vote. Imagine the tantrum then! I assume photo op with "a" Bible at St John's was to do with that section of his support.

PropJoe10 · 04-06-2020 11:13am

StringerBell wrote: »

One of the more interesting things to come out in polls for me lately was the recent one which indicated tRumps falling support from evangelicals, Catholics and from protestants. That's a big one, we could be looking at one of the biggest defeats in history if he were to lose the religious right vote. Imagine the tantrum then! I assume photo op with "a" Bible at St John's was to do with that section of his support.

Unless he is absolutely annihilated (and probably even then) he's going to likely blame voter fraud on any defeat and challenge it in the courts. I would say he's absolutely petrified about possibly leaving office and being open to further investigation. It's going to get extremely messy.

Leroy42 · 04-06-2020 11:17am

As a prevous poster mentioned, that stunt will no don't play well with a certain segment of his base. Best President ever and all that. But will it win over any concerned voters or voters that were thinking of voting for Biden?

I really doubt it. Trump already has the base locked in, he says himself there is nothing he could do that would get them to drop support for him. But they are ot enough to win him the election. But it seems they have no other plan than to stick to his base. Of course that is far easier than trying to reach out, but then Trump has not tried to reach out throughout his entire term.

PropJoe10 · 04-06-2020 11:37am

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

What is normal for you though is abnormal for someone else.

62,984,828 million people voted for Trump that is 46.1% of the American voting electorate. Reading this thread you would swear it was just a few headcases.
Were Hillary supporters normal it could be argued she had a cult following. Remember the tears from her supporters on election night.

Quite right. On the other hand, there's a certain element of independent and even Democratic voters that a) wouldn't vote for a woman and b) wouldn't vote for a Clinton. I don't think Biden will be as unpalatable to independents as Clinton was, which should work in his favour.

Carfacemandog · 04-06-2020 11:38am

Leroy42 wrote: »

Would his supporters finally see the light if he did that? Basically tearing up the constitution? I would like to think so but I seriously doubt it.

Your doubts would be correct, time and again his supporters have shown they have zero respect not regard for the constitution they claim to hold so dear, it is merely something for them to shout about loving when it suits (and completely ignore when it doesn't, like when peaceful protests occur against something inconvenient to them).

Find me a "constitutionalist" Trump supporter, and I'll find you a complete and utter bald faced liar.

Carfacemandog · 04-06-2020 11:42am

StringerBell wrote: »

One of the more interesting things to come out in polls for me lately was the recent one which indicated tRumps falling support from evangelicals, Catholics and from protestants. That's a big one, we could be looking at one of the biggest defeats in history if he were to lose the religious right vote. Imagine the tantrum then! I assume photo op with "a" Bible at St John's was to do with that section of his support.

He absolutely won't lose the support of the religious right, a movement founded in opposition to the civil rights movement and dog whistling which has moved probably less than any other political bloc in the US over the last 40 years - and if anything, which has moved further right.

Some other denominations he may lose some numbers off of, ut the religious right which is largely evangelical? Despite any noises coming from them I would expe t them to be one of his strongest bases in November, just as they were in 2016.

I would happily be proven wrong on this, but would good as bet the house that I won't be.

Tchaikovsky · 04-06-2020 11:42am

Who is this p**** Tom Cotton, who's getting airtime now for advocating for military intervention on US streets? If he's encouraging carnage on his fellow citizens, imagine what he did when he was in Iraq?

Midlife · 04-06-2020 11:46am

PropJoe10 wrote: »

Unless he is absolutely annihilated (and probably even then) he's going to likely blame voter fraud on any defeat and challenge it in the courts. I would say he's absolutely petrified about possibly leaving office and being open to further investigation. It's going to get extremely messy.

The best thing they could do when he gets booted out is to just drop it.

Whether you like him or not, surely at this stage you accept that the country needs to come together a bit.

When Trumpism is gone, some vestages will remain but he doesn't strike me as the guy who will be effective getting behind someone else's campaign. Once he's gone he will be a spent force in politics. He'll probably try to elevate his kids but they are lacking in any kind of personal appeal and have zero charisma.

He'll shout from the sidelines but is more likely to split the republican party than anything else.

Keeping him relevant by taking action against him would be a bad idea IMO.

listermint · 04-06-2020 11:57am

Midlife wrote: »

The best thing they could do when he gets booted out is to just drop it.

Whether you like him or not, surely at this stage you accept that the country needs to come together a bit.

When Trumpism is gone, some vestages will remain but he doesn't strike me as the guy who will be effective getting behind someone else's campaign. Once he's gone he will be a spent force in politics. He'll probably try to elevate his kids but they are lacking in any kind of personal appeal and have zero charisma.

He'll shout from the sidelines but is more likely to split the republican party than anything else.

Keeping him relevant by taking action against him would be a bad idea IMO.

No, i think they should go after his finances big time. His tax payments, fraud, embezzlement , money laundering. There is a whole host of extremely dodgy and nefarious practices going on there with international backing.

gormdubhgorm · 04-06-2020 11:57am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

How many illegal immigrants has Trump and other Republicans hired over the last few years I wonder.

I am sure if he had, it would have being routed out long ago?

I mean Trump is living the dream an 'anti establishment' billionaire now POTUS married a supermodel 24 years his junior.

Granted, he had a comfortable upbringing. But despite all the gaffes (weird photo ops with bibles and pussy grabbing statements) along the way he has shown his innate ability to speak to the electorate. Enough to get him in power.
He has not threatened global domination like Hitler/Stalin - like many have compared him to. Instead he favours isolationist polices for America.

I think when it comes down to it many virulent anti-Trump people still just can't believe he got elected. But if thier side were half as clued in to thier electorate as Trump is. They would have got elected instead.

Also, I think a lot of it is jealously looking at a slightly overweight awkward 70 plus fella with an odd hairstyle, but is worth billions. Married to a former supermodel. And all this on the back of not being a flowery orator at all.

If he has an ego at this stage I think he is entitled to it!

listermint · 04-06-2020 11:59am

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am sure if he had it would have being routed out long ago?

I mean Trump is living the dream an 'anti establishment' billionaire now POTUS married a supermodel 24 years his junior.

Granted, he had a comfortable upbringing. But despite all the gaffes (wierd photo ops with bibles and pussy grabbing statements) along the way he has innate ability to speak to the electorate. Enough to get him in power.
He has not threatened global domination like Hitler/Stalin like many have compared him to, He favours isolationist polices for America.

I think when it comes down to it many virulent anti-Trump people still just can't believe he got elected. But if thier side were half as clued in to thier electorate as Trump is they would have got elected instead.

Also I think a lot of it is jealously looking at a slightly overweight 70 plus fella with an odd hairstyle, but is worth billions. Married to a former supermodel. And all this on the back of not being a flowery orator at all.

If he has an ego at this stage I think he is entitled to it!

So far you've rewritten history in your posts and fallen back on the old trope that we are interpreting what he is saying incorrectly despite there being hundreds of hours of his words on live television all available to anyone who wants to review it.

Yeah... ok.

gormdubhgorm · 04-06-2020 12:06pm

listermint wrote: »

So far you've rewritten history in your posts and fallen back on the old trope that we are interpreting what he is saying incorrectly despite there being hundreds of hours of his words on live television all available to anyone who wants to review it.

Yeah... ok.

What have I interpreted incorrectly exactly?
A person who clicked with his electorate and got elected?

While the other-side who was completely disorganised laughed at him?
And ended up in shock when they did not do enough to resonate with the electorate?

Plus if Trump is such and evil person and such a poor candidate in this day and age it should be easy to defeat him - by American democracy. The free world. Shouldn't it?

Quin_Dub · 04-06-2020 12:07pm

Midlife wrote: »

The best thing they could do when he gets booted out is to just drop it.

Whether you like him or not, surely at this stage you accept that the country needs to come together a bit.

When Trumpism is gone, some vestages will remain but he doesn't strike me as the guy who will be effective getting behind someone else's campaign. Once he's gone he will be a spent force in politics. He'll probably try to elevate his kids but they are lacking in any kind of personal appeal and have zero charisma.

He'll shout from the sidelines but is more likely to split the republican party than anything else.

Keeping him relevant by taking action against him would be a bad idea IMO.

He has no interest in Politics , his interest is Money & Power.

Whenever he leaves office , his interest will be in making money , hence Juniors investment in OANN - A prelude to them re-purpose it as the Trump News Network to make money.

His attempts to elevate Ivanka (because it will be only be her) be be so that she can use Politics to make him money.

That's why going after every little scam that his entire family have been involved in is important - If you want to get rid of weeds to have to remove the roots or they'll just come back.

Cody montana · 04-06-2020 12:11pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am sure if he had, it would have being routed out long ago?

I mean Trump is living the dream an 'anti establishment' billionaire now POTUS married a supermodel 24 years his junior.

Granted, he had a comfortable upbringing. But despite all the gaffes (weird photo ops with bibles and pussy grabbing statements) along the way he has shown his innate ability to speak to the electorate. Enough to get him in power.
He has not threatened global domination like Hitler/Stalin - like many have compared him to. Instead he favours isolationist polices for America.

I think when it comes down to it many virulent anti-Trump people still just can't believe he got elected. But if thier side were half as clued in to thier electorate as Trump is. They would have got elected instead.

Also, I think a lot of it is jealously looking at a slightly overweight awkward 70 plus fella with an odd hairstyle, but is worth billions. Married to a former supermodel. And all this on the back of not being a flowery orator at all.

If he has an ego at this stage I think he is entitled to it!

Jealousy?
Are you a teenage girl?
I think most people pity him at this stage.

Also, he’s obese, not overweight.
He won’t release his tax return, so no one knows if he’s a billionaire.
Melania wasn’t a supermodel, did softcore porn, looks permanently unhappy and can’t open her eyes from Botox.
He sounds like a drugged child when speaking.

extra gravy · 04-06-2020 12:11pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Also, I think a lot of it is pity looking at an obese unpleasant 70 plus fella with an odd hairstyle and terrible tan but owes billions. Married to a former supermodel who clearly despises him. And all this on the back of not being able to string full sentences together.

Fixed your post.

Cody montana · 04-06-2020 12:12pm

extra gravy wrote: »

Fixed your post.

Snap!

Quin_Dub · 04-06-2020 12:14pm

extra gravy wrote: »

Fixed your post.

##Mod Note##

Don't do this please.

gormdubhgorm · 04-06-2020 12:16pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

He has no interest in Politics , his interest is Money & Power.

Whenever he leaves office , his interest will be in making money , hence Juniors investment in OANN - A prelude to them re-purpose it as the Trump News Network to make money.

His attempts to elevate Ivanka (because it will be only be her) be be so that she can use Politics to make him money.

That's why going after every little scam that his entire family have been involved in is important - If you want to get rid of weeds to have to remove the roots or they'll just come back.

Well the Obama's have done very well for themselves since Barrack left office

https://www.afr.com/work-and-careers/management/the-obamas-are-worth-30-times-more-than-when-they-entered-the-white-house-20180912-h159bg

As has Bill Clinton:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/04/the-clintons-erased-16-million-in-debt-and-accumulated-45-million.html

America's whole 'American dream' ideal is about making money and lots of it.

Call me Al · 04-06-2020 12:19pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

As a prevous poster mentioned, that stunt will no don't play well with a certain segment of his base. Best President ever and all that. But will it win over any concerned voters or voters that were thinking of voting for Biden?

I really doubt it. Trump already has the base locked in, he says himself there is nothing he could do that would get them to drop support for him. But they are ot enough to win him the election. But it seems they have no other plan than to stick to his base. Of course that is far easier than trying to reach out, but then Trump has not tried to reach out throughout his entire term.

Yes he has his base locked in. But I wonder just how many of this base are Trumpers rather than Republicans?
I'd love to know how many of these supporters are following party line and will switch back to party once Trump is gone. The risk here for Gop is that Trump may cannabalise their party support. And I think he's quite likely to do exactly this when he's no longer President. The risk here is for the GOP after November.
Right now Trump won't win this election with his base alone.
He needs to broaden his appeal to that middle ground.
Right now he's not winning the hearts and minds of these "middle ground" people. In fact I would contend that identifying as strongly as he is with an authoritarian and militaristic ideology, and supported by right wing militias as he is, he's alienating them further into the arms of a calm soothing grandfatherly alternative in Biden.

Trump isn't going to change this hardman approach either. He's predictable wrt his attitude. People are either winners or losers, tough men or sissies (tough women being the ultimate unpalatable paradox for him). He will never tack backwards from where he is now.

gormdubhgorm · 04-06-2020 12:21pm

Cody montana wrote: »

Jealousy?
Are you a teenage girl?
I think most people pity him at this stage.

Also, he’s obese, not overweight.
He won’t release his tax return, so no one knows if he’s a billionaire.
Melania wasn’t a supermodel, did softcore porn, looks permanently unhappy and can’t open her eyes from Botox.
He sounds like a drugged child when speaking.

So if your post is true has done even better despite all this he still got elected! As for the jealously part.
Do you not think your own post sounds a bit envious/jealous? Trying to take the Trump's down a notch or two. To make yourself feel better about the scenario of Trump leading the most powerful nation on earth?

Quin_Dub · 04-06-2020 12:23pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Well the Obama's have done very well for themselves since Barrack left office

https://www.afr.com/work-and-careers/management/the-obamas-are-worth-30-times-more-than-when-they-entered-the-white-house-20180912-h159bg

As has Bill Clinton:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/04/the-clintons-erased-16-million-in-debt-and-accumulated-45-million.html

America's whole 'American dream' ideal is about making money and lots of it.

I have absolutely no issue with someone monetising their former position.

No issue with any of them making money off book deals or speaking fees etc. etc.

I have a Major issue with Trump monetising his Presidency WHILE he's in Office though.

If he hadn't been grifting his way through his tenure and if all he was going to do after he leaves office was set himself up as a TV Personality and make money that way , it wouldn't be a particular problem.

But he HAS been Grifting for the last 4 years and his families future Political aspirations would be about facilitating more Grifting.

listermint · 04-06-2020 12:26pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So if your post is true has done even better despite all this he still got elected! As for the jealously part.
Do you not think your own post sounds a bit envious/jealous? Trying to take the Trump's down a notch or two. To make yourself feel better about the scenario of Trump leading the most powerful nation on earth?

You appear to have very low ideals.

Note just to be clear on what im saying. Trump evidently has major concerns in the tax department. We already have vast arrays of evidence of him undereporting vast swades of his property empire.

He has golf clubs across the world with extremely low visitors yet the money keeps coming into these businesses.

The mother load of evasion on all levels and sources of money would be something that should be definitely followed up on.

And for me ive no interest in paying a woman for her affections, If you subscribe to that ideal, well then thats for you.

gormdubhgorm · 04-06-2020 12:33pm

listermint wrote: »

You appear to have very low ideals.

Note just to be clear on what im saying. Trump evidently has major concerns in the tax department. We already have vast arrays of evidence of him undereporting vast swades of his property empire.

He has golf clubs across the world with extremely low visitors yet the money keeps coming into these businesses.

The mother load of evasion on all levels and sources of money would be something that should be definitely followed up on.

And for me ive no interest in paying a woman for her affections, If you subscribe to that ideal, well then thats for you.

He is not even my country I did not have a chance to vote or not vote for him.
You appear to have moral issues with Trump I am not sure if you had the same moral issues about Bill Clinton (the obvious) or Hillary Clinton (donations from the Gulf/Saudis etc etc) ?

Cody montana · 04-06-2020 12:41pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So if your post is true has done even better despite all this he still got elected! As for the jealously part.
Do you not think your own post sounds a bit envious/jealous? Trying to take the Trump's down a notch or two. To make yourself feel better about the scenario of Trump leading the most powerful nation on earth?

Yes, he promised everything, he promised change and delivered on nothing.
The people will decide if he’s delivered in November.
I pity him, nothing more.

gormdubhgorm · 04-06-2020 12:41pm

extra gravy wrote: »

on the back of not being able to string full sentences together.

Fixed your post.

Trump may not be a flowery speaker, but he is effective.

It is the reason why Martin Mansergh never became Taoiseach flowery language but would never engage with electorate. More of the behind the scenes negotiator rather than a front man.
Trump is the ultimate front man.

Carfacemandog · 04-06-2020 12:45pm

[

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I am sure if he had, it would have being routed out long ago?

It has been. Repeatedly. He has used illegal immigrants everywhere from polish construction workers to staff across his golfing resorts. His supporters do not care.

I mean Trump is living the dream an 'anti establishment' billionaire now POTUS married a supermodel 24 years his junior.

Granted, he had a comfortable upbringing. But despite all the gaffes (weird photo ops with bibles and pussy grabbing statements) along the way he has shown his innate ability to speak to the electorate. Enough to get him in power.
He has not threatened global domination like Hitler/Stalin - like many have compared him to. Instead he favours isolationist polices for America.

If by comfortable' you mean 'had hundreds of millions of dollars', I suppose. But he has, repeatedly, threatened military action against a number of nations including some very suspect goings on around Iran in particular, while massively ramping up the drones trikes etc that his supporters claimed to be so adamantly opposed to back in 2016. Again, they do not care.

To call him 'isolationist' is absolutely false, and given how prevalent the above has been in the news over his presidency I'm struggling to believe you could believe it yourself.

I think when it comes down to it many virulent anti-Trump people still just can't believe he got elected. But if thier side were half as clued in to thier electorate as Trump is. They would have got elected instead.

I think what it has a lot more to do do with is Trump supporters holding serious double standards, issues with honesty, and valuing the signalling of their loyalties to Trump and the cult like following the likes of Cambridge Analytica have built around him. Hence why things they claim to care about, once Trump dies them, they no longer care in the least about. And hence why so many ex staff, including people Trump hired himself and whom are long time republicans, have called him out on such a littanynof issues too, Mattias yesterday being just the latest.

Also, I think a lot of it is jealously looking at a slightly overweight awkward 70 plus fella with an odd hairstyle, but is worth billions. Married to a former supermodel. And all this on the back of not being a flowery orator at all.

If he has an ego at this stage I think he is entitled to it!

I wouldn't attribute disgust at policies like separating children from their parents to put them in concentration camps, stripping sick Americans of their healthcare t ogive tax cuts to billionaires, or calling for military action against your own citizens 'jealousy', and frankly if that is what you amount it to, it says an awful lot about your values or lack thereof.

gormdubhgorm · 04-06-2020 12:51pm

Carfacemandog wrote: »

I wouldn't attribute disgust at policies like separating children from their parents to put them in concentration camps, stripping sick Americans of their healthcare t ogive tax cuts to billionaires, or calling for military action against your own citizens 'jealousy', and frankly if that is what you amount it to, it says an awful lot about your values or lack thereof.

Again, I did not vote in the USA election one way or another. Trying to clonflate 'my values' from a single post on boards.ie is hyperbolic in the extreme. And takes away from any valid points you might have had subsequent to the statement.

Also many voters in the USA do not want an Irish or UK style health system, otherwise it would have been changed generations ago.

Overheal · 04-06-2020 1:46pm

Naturally this old rally clip is coming back around timely for a haunt of current events. Perhaps we will see this in a large number of campaign ads.

Trump mocks police brutality victims pleading “I can’t breathe”

https://twitter.com/junotheson/status/1267325223264649216?s=21

Carfacemandog · 04-06-2020 1:50pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Again, I did not vote in the USA election one way or another. Trying to clonflate 'my values' from a single post on boards.ie is hyperbolic in the extreme. And takes away from any valid points you might have had subsequent to the statement.

The fact that you need to defend yourself with a straw man saysa lot. At no point did I say you voted for Trump, nor that you even had the capacity to vote inthe US election. What I said was that if you amount issues with policies like those I pointed out to simply jealousy, it says a lot about your values.

And the fact is, you did amount the issues that as you put them, "virulent anti-Trump people" have with him to, and I am quoting you here, "a lot of it is jealously" over his inherited wealth and his wife.

If you are going to make a frankly stupid argument like that, at least try to defend the points you made and not something else entirely.

Also many voters in the USA do not want an Irish or UK style health system, otherwise it would have been changed generations ago.

The majority of Americans do want universal public healthcare, time and again polls show this. The main problems they have with it are centered around fear mongering that it have to mean abolishing private healthcare (which a town here in Ireland can tell you it doesn't) and a slavish, cult like adherence to their political party. This is why approval for the ACA routinely ranks much higher than approval for "Obamacare" (which is literally just a nickname for the ACA).

When you have as poor an education system as so much of the US does (national averages in different areas such as maths, and literacy dropping from 5-10th in the world 20 years ago to 30th-40th today), it's in redobly easy to get them to vote against what they explicitly say they want - in this case, better and universal public healthcare.

gormdubhgorm · 04-06-2020 2:21pm

Carfacemandog wrote: »

The fact that you need to defend yourself with a straw man saysa lot. At no point did I say you voted for Trump, nor that you even had the capacity to vote inthe US election. What I said was that if you amount issues with policies like those I pointed out to simply jealousy, it says a lot about your values.

Man of straw argument?

Surely you have done exactly that by bringing up 'values'.
But since you want to labour on the point this is exactly the problem with the anti-Trump brigade. They are smug and view anyone who does not think exactly like them or voted Trump as having 'no values'.

The fact is, you did amount the issues that as you put them, "virulent anti-Trump people" have with him to, and I am quoting you here, "a lot of it is jealously" over his inherited wealth and his wife.

If you are going to make a frankly stupid argument like that, at least try to defend the points you made and not something else entirely.

That is just my opinion. Because a lot people who belittle Trump view themselves as more intelligent and cultured than him. Yet he landed the top job in America. Played the game and won. Arguably one of the greatest upsets in the history of American politics.

The majority of Americans do want universal public healthcare, time and again polls show this. The main problems they have with it are centered around fear mongering that it have to mean abolishing private healthcare (which a town here in Ireland can tell you it doesn't) and a slavish, cult like adherence to their political party. This is why approval for the ACA routinely ranks much higher than approval for "Obamacare" (which is literally just a nickname for the ACA).

Rubbish if the majority of Americans wanted universal public healthcare, it would change fairly sharpish. They don't simple as that.

When you have as poor an education system as so much of the US does (national averages in different areas such as maths, and literacy dropping from 5-10th in the world 20 years ago to 30th-40th today), it's in redobly easy to get them to vote against what they explicitly say they want - in this case, better and universal public healthcare.

So now you are calling the American electorate thick, and not as smart as you are? It brings me nicely back to my initial point on smugness. Your post has gone full circle.

rossie1977 · 04-06-2020 2:33pm

60% of Americans say healthcare is government responsibly so that's majority https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/10/03/most-continue-to-say-ensuring-health-care-coverage-is-governments-responsibility/

It wouldn't matter if 100% wanted it because as long as the Republicans and some Democrats are getting huge donations from giant corporations and mega rich individuals opposed to universal health care it will never happen. It's not the people that have the final say, it's Mitch McConnell and the like.. same with gun control. As long as the NRA have bought and paid for every Republican politician and some Democrats nothing will be done to stop the blight of mass shootings in the US.

Quin_Dub · 04-06-2020 2:37pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Man of straw argument?

Surely you have done exactly that by bringing up 'values'.
But since you want to labour on the point this is exactly the problem with the anti-Trump brigade. They are smug and view anyone who does not think exactly like them or voted Trump as having 'no values'.

That is just my opinion. Because a lot people who belittle Trump view themselves as more intelligent and cultured than him. Yet he landed the top job in America. Played the game and won. Arguably one of the greatest upsets in the history of American politics.

Rubbish if the majority of Americans wanted universal public healthcare, it would change fairly sharpish. They don't simple as that.

So now you are calling the American electorate thick, and not as smart as you are? It brings me nicely back to my initial point on smugness. Your post has gone full circle.

Not exactly.

There is broad universal support among everyone except Republicans (surprise surprise)

So - The Republicans filibuster and poison the well around the conversation with things like "Death Panels" and all the other "it's a communist plot" stupidity to ensure that the massive healthcare companies that fund them can keep making utterly outrageous amounts of money for basic healthcare.

FrostyJack · 04-06-2020 2:46pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Man of straw argument?

Surely you have done exactly that by bringing up 'values'.
But since you want to labour on the point this is exactly the problem with the anti-Trump brigade. They are smug and view anyone who does not think exactly like them or voted Trump as having 'no values'.

Trump has no values, except loyalty, and by that I mean loyalty to him, he has cheated on all his wives, over 18000 provable lies and counting, multiple sexual assault allegations, trips on the lolita express and actually admitting to doing it to women, bullied,swindled and stole people out of money. There is literally a tweet he has said against everything he has done in his presidency. He has zero morals, so if support him knowing all this, then what does it say about you

See above

That is just my opinion. Because a lot people who belittle Trump view themselves as more intelligent and cultured than him. Yet he landed the top job in America. Played the game and won. Arguably one of the greatest upsets in the history of American politics.

My dog is vastly more intelligent than him, if I gave my dog 400 million to start off like Trump, he would have at least that at the end of the day. My dog takes simple instructions and learns from his mistakes. Trump can do neither of those things and in order to stay awake in briefings his name has to be inserted every few minutes so it holds his attention, this is well documented. Given that everyone who posts here is vastly more intelligent than my dog, they have good reason to feel smarter than Trump

Rubbish if the majority of Americans wanted universal public healthcare, it would change fairly sharpish. They don't simple as that.

As stated before a good 50+% when polled want universal care, the rest have been brainwashed to believe it is communism and the next step is working in the gulags. The pharmaceutical companies and health industry don't want it so the lobbyists push against it so they can keep their supernormal profits. That is why the Irish cop who got shot in a mugging in New York a few years ago had a bill of over a million dollars and had to crowd fund his care. Madness

So now you are calling the American electorate thick, and not as smart as you are? It brings me nicely back to my initial point on smugness. Your post has gone full circle.

This has been proven many times, the education system is broken and Fox News is the largest news network, case and point

see above

FrostyJack · 04-06-2020 2:48pm

rossie1977 wrote: »

60% of Americans say healthcare is government responsibly so that's majority https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/10/03/most-continue-to-say-ensuring-health-care-coverage-is-governments-responsibility/

It wouldn't matter if 100% wanted it because as long as the Republicans and some Democrats are getting huge donations from giant corporations and mega rich individuals opposed to universal health care it will never happen. It's not the people that have the final say, it's Mitch McConnell and the like.. same with gun control. As long as the NRA have bought and paid for every Republican politician and some Democrats nothing will be done to stop the blight of mass shootings in the US.

It is much cheaper to buy a congressman or senator then it is to run for office yourself. Koch brothers and the likes learned this years ago.

Manic Moran · 04-06-2020 3:03pm

duploelabs wrote: »

So being a military man yourself, what do you make of Mattis' comments?

His statements, as with those of Mullen and Esper, are reasonable. As I mentioned earlier, I am not a fan of the way Trump referenced the Insurrection Act and I agree with them that we are not yet in a position where the use of federal troops is required. As local evidence, I'm still here, typing on Boards, I'm not in uniform supporting Texas DPS. Obviously we have not yet run out of State resources. I also agree that Trump has done not one whit to attempt to unite the country or address the cause of the discontent.

The option needs to be available, yes. It needs to be a pull request from the States, though, not a push from D.C.

Side tangent, referencing earlier discussion about gun owners, this one covers some of the more extreme elements (Those who identify as "Boogaloos").
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/us/boogaloo-extremist-protests-invs/index.html
"While there are pockets of white supremacist Boogaloos, the younger and bigger groups are generally not. [...] While there are Boogaloos that support police, the younger and bigger groups detest them. While there are Boogaloos that want to discredit protests angry at the murder of a black man, there are younger Boogaloos that are incensed by the murder and want to join the protests."

timsey tiger · 04-06-2020 3:18pm

Overheal wrote: »

Naturally this old rally clip is coming back around timely for a haunt of current events. Perhaps we will see this in a large number of campaign ads.

Trump mocks police brutality victims pleading “I can’t breathe”

That's horrific and disturbing, esp. the way it loops.

Overheal · 04-06-2020 3:27pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Rubbish if the majority of Americans wanted universal public healthcare, it would change fairly sharpish. They don't simple as that.

69% of Americans is a majority right?

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/494602-poll-69-percent-of-voters-support-medicare-for-all

:rolleyes:

Penn · 04-06-2020 3:53pm

timsey tiger wrote: »

Trump mocks police brutality victims pleading “I can’t breathe”

That's horrific and disturbing, esp. the way it loops.

I think the full clip shows he was mocking Bloomberg from during one of the debates.

Edit: https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-trump-cantbreathe/fact-check-trump-was-mocking-bloomberg-not-floyd-in-i-cant-breathe-clip-idUSKBN23A2XA

Midlife · 04-06-2020 3:59pm

Overheal wrote: »

69% of Americans is a majority right?

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/494602-poll-69-percent-of-voters-support-medicare-for-all

:rolleyes:

Yeah, all you need to know about health care lobbying in the US is that the nation pays 3 times the developed world average for health care but has lower life expentecy.

The country is being fleeced by a private health industry that has bought political favours.

Carfacemandog · 04-06-2020 4:01pm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Man of straw argument?

Surely you have done exactly that by bringing up 'values'.
But since you want to labour on the point this is exactly the problem with the anti-Trump brigade. They are smug and view anyone who does not think exactly like them or voted Trump as having 'no values'.

You need to look up what a straw man is, my pointing out your lack of morals if you are willing to overlook some of the awful things Trump has done and write them off as merely 'jealousy' from his detractors is not what a straw man is.

You responding by claiming I accused you of voting for Trump rather than addressing the points made, that is a straw man.

"A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent."

I have yet to be convinced by anyone that separating children from their parents to put them in concentration camps, that removing healthcare from Americans to give billionaires a tax cut, or that pushing to use the military against your own populace can in any way be viewed as having good values or morals. In no small part this is because rarely do they actually defend these, and so frequently are just happy to just ignore the facts.

That is just my opinion. Because a lot people who belittle Trump view themselves as more intelligent and cultured than him. Yet he landed the top job in America. Played the game and won. Arguably one of the greatest upsets in the history of American politics.

You seem to be ignoring the facts which I have given to you. You can continue to ignore the border camp child separation issues, the healthcare issues and billionaire tax cuts, the fobbing off of the biggest global pandemic in a century as a 'Democrat hoax', the calls for armed "liberation" of states a few weeks go and eagerness to deploy the military on his own citizens in contrast over this past week when he disagreed with the cause, and on and on the list goes.

But when you do and instead try to paint it as 'jealousy' you're really not being very convincing - at all. It just shows a complete inability and unwillingness to tackle the clear and obvious reasons for disapproval of him that have been laid right in front of you; a wilful attempt to ignore the facts.

Rubbish if the majority of Americans wanted universal public healthcare, it would change fairly sharpish. They don't simple as that.

Others have already pointed out to you that this is indeed the case.

So now you are calling the American electorate thick, and not as smart as you are? It brings me nicely back to my initial point on smugness. Your post has gone full circle.

You can try to draw an emotive argument out of this all you like, but the fact is that the US has nosedived in its world rankings compared to where it was in the past when it comes to quality of education. Not being adequately educated doesn't make someone 'thick', but it certainly does by definition make them under informed and lacking knowledge. And the US has become the poster nation for that in the western, supposedly developed, world.

As the saying Republicans are so fond of goes, "facts don't care about your feelings" - https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/15/u-s-students-internationally-math-science/

FT_17.02.14_STEM_table.png

What is particularly worrying about the above is that there is no denying the US has some of the very, very best schools in the world (for the wealthy, of course) bringing up the average significantly, meaning many of the poorer rural and inner city schools are considerably worse than even those rankings would make out.

Pedro K · 04-06-2020 4:05pm

What can you expect when you have at least one state that has a disclaimer in science school books about the theory of evolution?

peddlelies · 04-06-2020 4:16pm

Pedro K wrote: »

What can you expect when you have at least one state that has a disclaimer in science school books about the theory of evolution?

I'm sure those gender studies courses etc based on pure pseudo science are shooting the mathematics scores right up too. If anything they're producing a healthy dose of anarchists and professional protesters.

Donald Trump Presidency discussion Thread VII (threadbanned users listed in OP)

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