Is it just me or have SF vanished?

Mortelaro · 03-06-2020 01:45PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes, as the main party of 'government' only 20% see their 'usefulness'.

That doesn't compute

FrancieBrady · 03-06-2020 01:53PM

Mortelaro wrote: »

That doesn't compute

I understand it wouldn't if you are in constant defend mode.

Mortelaro · 03-06-2020 02:16PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I understand it wouldn't if you are in constant defend mode.

You need to understand a little better then
Stuff like how your party can't command enough of the electorate to form a government whilst others can
Democracy if you will

FrancieBrady · 03-06-2020 02:23PM

Mortelaro wrote: »

You need to understand a little better then
Stuff like how your party can't command enough of the electorate to form a government whilst others can
Democracy if you will

You asked how the performance of a government could be 'defined as useless'. The only metric we have is the voice of the electorate and only 20% of them said they wanted FG to lead or be in a government this time out.

Your view or my view of how they performed is not relevant to that.

Mortelaro · 03-06-2020 02:30PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You asked how the performance of a government could be 'defined as useless'. The only metric we have is the voice of the electorate and only 20% of them said they wanted FG to lead or be in a government this time out.

Your view or my view of how they performed is not relevant to that.

But you in a see through way have unsuccessfully skewed the metric to suit your argument

That doesn't change the actual metrics
The electorate in 2016 and 2020 returned a Dáil that could either have had MM or LV as Taoiseach
Not MLM
Fact
Ergo a variation on a theme

FrancieBrady · 03-06-2020 02:35PM

Mortelaro wrote: »

But you in a see through way have unsuccessfully skewed the metric to suit your argument

That doesn't change the actual metrics
The electorate in 2016 and 2020 returned a Dáil that could either have had MM or LV as Taoiseach
Not MLM
Fact
Ergo a variation on a theme

Fact...the 'electorate' do not 'return' governments. The electorate return 'TD's'.
In 2020 the electorate did not think FG TD's were 'useful' enough to return enough of them to reform a government like the last one.

Mortelaro · 03-06-2020 02:49PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fact...the 'electorate' do not 'return' governments. The electorate return 'TD's'.
In 2020 the electorate did not think FG TD's were 'useful' enough to return enough of them to reform a government like the last one.

You're funny
You come out with the same lines all the time
Then Countered by others with opposing lines
Rinse repeat
Its like coronation street
Come back 6 months later and you haven't missed anything

blanch152 · 03-06-2020 03:00PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fact...the 'electorate' do not 'return' governments. The electorate return 'TD's'.
In 2020 the electorate did not think FG TD's were 'useful' enough to return enough of them to reform a government like the last one.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The usefulness of a sitting government is surely easily defined by the amount of people willing to vote them back in? In FG's case, useful to 20%.

Am I alone in spotting the cognitive dissonance between these two posts?

FrancieBrady · 03-06-2020 03:12PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Am I alone in spotting the cognitive dissonance between these two posts?

Why?

Not enough people returned FG TD's to allow them to reform the government we had.

That is a judgement on the government we had, what ever way you want to look at it.

FrancieBrady · 03-06-2020 03:32PM

Mortelaro wrote: »

You're funny
You come out with the same lines all the time
Then Countered by others with opposing lines
Rinse repeat
Its like coronation street
Come back 6 months later and you haven't missed anything

Your counter such as it is, seems to be that the electorate have 'elected' whatever government now emerges here.

They haven't. Fact. And no amount of pretending that they have is going to change that fact.
The electorate have passed judgement on the government we had by not electing enough FG TD's to allow it to form again. Fact as well.

Madeleine Birchfield · 03-06-2020 03:34PM

Fine Gael and Fianna Fail ought to form a coalition government. We'll see then if there exists any meaningful opposition from Sinn Fein or no opposition at all.

dundalkfc10 · 03-06-2020 03:51PM

Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »

Fine Gael and Fianna Fail ought to form a coalition government. We'll see then if there exists any meaningful opposition from Sinn Fein or no opposition at all.

Its clear to tell FF won't agree to go in with FG. They could jump ship to SF, which alot of their TDs seem willing to do

IAmTheReign · 04-06-2020 08:18AM

jm08 wrote: »

Its a proposal to County Councils/Local authorities, not a PR exercise.

Irish Examiner wrote:

Housing spokesperson Eoin Ó Broin issued a draft affordable housing scheme, seen by the Irish Examiner, detailing how Sinn Féin would build thousands of affordable houses if it was in government.

It's not a PR exercise, it's just a proposal for what they would do IF they get into government, while making no real attempt to enter government, that was meant for the CC/LAs but ended up in the press, that's sounds great in the media but they decide against publishing it...

It might not be a PR exercise but if it walks like a duck and all that. Regardless, the poster who brought it up said the plan had merit. I don't think it's unreasonable to want to see the plan before deciding to see if the plan has merit or not. The devils in the details as they say.

jm08 wrote: »

There are two schemes there, one is for affordable rent and one for affordable purchase. If you can't get the cash together to buy, there is the option of renting the property at a max. of €800-900 per month.

A couple with both working should be able to afford a mortgage of €230,000.

Did you read the article? Here's the relevant section for you again

Irish Examiner wrote:

The circular states that affordable homes for €230,000 or less would be available to purchase in Dublin, and other major urban areas for households whose gross incomes are between €45,000 and €75,000 per annum with a cut-off point of €50,000 for a single person.

I didn't pick the number of 45,000 out of the air, it clearly states households earning 45,000 per annum would be able to purchase. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask how they would be able to finance the purchase. A proper plan would account for these things, which is why I wanted to see it.

jm08 wrote: »

My understanding of it is that the State would continue to own the site and if selling have to sell it back to the Scheme with adjustment for increase in value which will basically mean that the State/Council continues to have affordable housing.

I'm sure there could be a formula for working out what the value of the house is based on cost of living/building etc.

Your understanding would be incorrect. The article posted said specifically that prices would be adjusted for inflation, not for increases in value. Compare inflation versus increases in property value over the last 50 years and you'll see the two are wildly different. Now maybe the article got it wrong, and the proposal does allow people to sell properties for a profit. But without seeing it we don't know do we?

ThunbergsAreGo · 04-06-2020 08:49AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why?

Not enough people returned FG TD's to allow them to reform the government we had.

That is a judgement on the government we had, what ever way you want to look at it.

Well it was a minority government previously, so even if they had returned more TDS then the previous election, they might not have been allowed to reform the previous government

Mortelaro · 04-06-2020 09:24AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your counter such as it is, seems to be that the electorate have 'elected' whatever government now emerges here.

They haven't. Fact. And no amount of pretending that they have is going to change that fact.
The electorate have passed judgement on the government we had by not electing enough FG TD's to allow it to form again. Fact as well.

Balderdash
All you are doing there is belittling our democracy by inventing excuses for why a majority was not elected to work with your party
It's a stunning reprimand for you in the face of such an apparent appetite for change in February 2020

FrancieBrady · 04-06-2020 10:19AM

Mortelaro wrote: »

Balderdash
All you are doing there is belittling our democracy by inventing excuses for why a majority was not elected to work with your party
It's a stunning reprimand for you in the face of such an apparent appetite for change in February 2020

You are the person that came out with the nonsense that we 'elect' the government.
The fact is we don't. We elect TD's. After that 'governments' get formed on the basis of the vote.
It is more than possible, indeed very likely that someone who voted FG might be thoroughly against the coalition that forms.

And I am delighted from the night of the election that SF are in the position they are in.
Because my goal is not party political, per se. I want to see the end of the toxic power swap here and that is going swimmingly, in fact a 5 year look at how the two of them perform together will copperfasten the end of it, imo.

Mortelaro · 04-06-2020 10:36AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are the person that came out with the nonsense that we 'elect' the government.
The fact is we don't. We elect TD's. After that 'governments' get formed on the basis of the vote.
It is more than possible, indeed very likely that someone who voted FG might be thoroughly against the coalition that forms.

And I am delighted from the night of the election that SF are in the position they are in.

Misrepresentation much
I said we return t.d's
I didnt mention reelected government 's
,see the attached post

The net effect of what I said was the fact a majority of that democratically elected Dáil don't want to work with Sinn Féin is something that Sinn Féin need to work out
Not everyone else
Its always everyone else with ye

FrancieBrady · 04-06-2020 10:55AM

Mortelaro wrote: »

Misrepresentation much
I said we return t.d's
I didnt mention reelected government 's
,see the attached post

The net effect of what I said was the fact a majority of that democratically elected Dáil don't want to work with Sinn Féin is something that Sinn Féin need to work out
Not everyone else
Its always everyone else with ye

And the other equally valid way of looking at it is that a growing number of people are saying we are returning SF TD's. It is therefore up to FF/FG and others to work out what that means and ignore it at their peril.
This time they have chosen to ignore it so far, but will that hold? The evidence is, that if FF had recieved a few more seats it wouldn't have.

dundalkfc10 · 04-06-2020 11:07AM

Mortelaro wrote: »

Misrepresentation much
I said we return t.d's
I didnt mention reelected government 's
,see the attached post

The net effect of what I said was the fact a majority of that democratically elected Dáil don't want to work with Sinn Féin is something that Sinn Féin need to work out
Not everyone else
Its always everyone else with ye

FG say they want a Govt formed for the good of Ireland. What they really mean is they want a Govt formed for 75% of Ireland, **** the other 25%

P.S Nobody wants to go into Govt with FG either, How many days have they been trying now?

Mortelaro · 04-06-2020 11:18AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And the other equally valid way of looking at it is that a growing number of people are saying we are returning SF TD's. It is therefore up to FF/FG and others to work out what that means and ignore it at their peril.
This time they have chosen to ignore it so far, but will that hold? The evidence is, that if FF had recieved a few more seats it wouldn't have.

I wouldn't have minded an FF SF coalition tbh
It would be a modified SF
The SCC would certainly stay
Spending would be within EU limits
The protester would be protested against, all part of democratic life

SF do need that spell in government
It will be the pinnacle of mainstream achievement for them and an eye opener for their core vote

Mortelaro · 04-06-2020 11:20AM

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

P.S Nobody wants to go into Govt with FG either, How many days have they been trying now?

LoL

dundalkfc10 · 04-06-2020 11:34AM

Mortelaro wrote: »

LoL

So tell me who wants to go into Govt with FG?

O'Neill · 04-06-2020 11:40AM

Mortelaro wrote: »

I wouldn't have minded an FF SF coalition tbh
It would be a modified SF
The SCC would certainly stay
Spending would be within EU limits
The protester would be protested against, all part of democratic life

SF do need that spell in government
It will be the pinnacle of mainstream achievement for them and an eye opener for their core vote

You do realise that SF are in power with the DUP in the North don't you? :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady · 04-06-2020 11:53AM

Mortelaro wrote: »

I wouldn't have minded an FF SF coalition tbh
It would be a modified SF
The SCC would certainly stay
Spending would be within EU limits
The protester would be protested against, all part of democratic life

SF do need that spell in government
It will be the pinnacle of mainstream achievement for them and an eye opener for their core vote

I'm sure FF cozying up to FG after promising not to is an eyeopener for their core vote too.

Core votes have a tendency to remain no matter what happens, so I wouldn't be keeping awake worrying about them.

What FG and FF need to worry about is and are worrying about (hence the real reason for not letting SF into the picture) is the middle ground votes, that no longer are assured for any party. They are losing them hand over fist. 84% share down to 44% share.

Mortelaro · 04-06-2020 12:10PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm sure FF cozying up to FG after promising not to is an eyeopener for their core vote too.

Nope
Away from SF spin hq,most FG and FF voters would have known what that was all about
Only an eejit would have said prior to the vote that a marriage was possible because one wanted to be stronger than the other
That's the reality

What FG and FF need to worry about is and are worrying about (hence the real reason for not letting SF into the picture) is the middle ground votes, that no longer are assured for any party. They are losing them hand over fist. 84% share down to 44% share.

A lot of them went mostly not to the left but to independents if we are counting the last 20 years
Ergo not much use to SF when its gene pool independents
A protest vote is not a stable vote yo depend on either especially if this new government are clever
That might be SF's fear here

jm08 · 04-06-2020 12:10PM

IAmTheReign wrote: »

It's not a PR exercise, it's just a proposal for what they would do IF they get into government, while making no real attempt to enter government, that was meant for the CC/LAs but ended up in the press, that's sounds great in the media but they decide against publishing it...

It might not be a PR exercise but if it walks like a duck and all that. Regardless, the poster who brought it up said the plan had merit. I don't think it's unreasonable to want to see the plan before deciding to see if the plan has merit or not. The devils in the details as they say.

But you just dismiss it because SF have produced it even though you don't know the detail.

Did you read the article? Here's the relevant section for you again

I didn't pick the number of 45,000 out of the air, it clearly states households earning 45,000 per annum would be able to purchase. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask how they would be able to finance the purchase. A proper plan would account for these things, which is why I wanted to see it.

I just did a quick calculation using Permanent TSB calculator.

Age 30.
Salary 40K
Single
30 year repayment.

Based on that, someone could borrow 200K and need to have saved 22K to get loan.

Monthly repayments would be 831.11 per month. 4K cash drawback on uptake of loan.

That to me is affordable. Just need to saved a bit more.

Your understanding would be incorrect. The article posted said specifically that prices would be adjusted for inflation, not for increases in value. Compare inflation versus increases in property value over the last 50 years and you'll see the two are wildly different. Now maybe the article got it wrong, and the proposal does allow people to sell properties for a profit. But without seeing it we don't know do we?

Its a not-for-profit scheme. If you want to make a profit, stick to the private sector housing and don't be looking for handouts from the State.

By the way, it states that: ''affordable homes for €230,000 or less would be available to purchase in Dublin, and other major urban areas for households whose gross incomes are between €45,000 and €75,000 per annum with a cut-off point of €50,000 for a single person.''

Edgware · 04-06-2020 12:15PM

O'Neill wrote: »

You do realise that SF are in power with the DUP in the North don't you? :rolleyes:

Is that the glorified county council made up of 3 DUP 2 SF 1ALLIANCE AND 1 SDLP Ministers ?

FrancieBrady · 04-06-2020 12:24PM

Mortelaro wrote: »

Nope
Away from SF spin hq,most FG and FF voters would have known what that was all about
Only an eejit would have said prior to the vote that a marriage was possible because one wanted to be stronger than the other
That's the reality

Plenty of eejits here then who think the high moral ground grandstanding about SF was any thing different. Cynical vote grabbing, power swap maintaining verbiage.

A lot of them went mostly not to the left but to independents if we are counting the last 20 years
Ergo not much use to SF when its gene pool independents
A protest vote is not a stable vote yo depend on either especially if this new government are clever
That might be SF's fear here

I doubt SF are in 'fear'.
If FG and FF manage this, it is one of the after election scenarios that suit SF if they are not going into government.

I fancy FG have learnt very little from the election as they sent O'Donovan out to debate with Pearse Doherty this AM...if they do that much more, the Shinners will romp home in any election. What an arrogant little dictator we have in waiting.

gormdubhgorm · 04-06-2020 12:29PM

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

FG say they want a Govt formed for the good of Ireland. What they really mean is they want a Govt formed for 75% of Ireland, **** the other 25%

P.S Nobody wants to go into Govt with FG either, How many days have they been trying now?

I think that is projection. There are far more important things going on at the moment that the caretaker government has to deal with. And is dealing with well in comparison to many other countries.

Plus as you know 75% is greater than 25% plus the real problem is SF cannot shake thier past which has lead to this impasse at the moment. If SF cleaned up thier past and were most honest and upfront about the rule of law. People like me would have had no problem voting for them.
But as it stands 484,320 (FF) + 455,584 (FG)+ 95,588 (LAB) (total 1,035,492) voted for parties that said they would NOT go into government with SF.

That is how democracy works that is a mandate. If SF found enough of pals to form a government in the dail. I would have to accept it.
Much like Dundalk had to accept the loss of Richie Towell. You have to accept the way the system works, and move on.

Eventually it will likely be a government of FF/FG/Greens and a few independents. SF will do what they do best from the opposition saying what the government should have done. It might even suit them in the longer term!

blanch152 · 04-06-2020 12:43PM

O'Neill wrote: »

You do realise that SF are in power with the DUP in the North don't you? :rolleyes:

Are they? I think this is the official line now...

maccored wrote: »

how can you compare the multifaceted nationalist/unionist/neither/british government set up in the north to a normal government?

Is it just me or have SF vanished?

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