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A 30 KPH limit for Dublin

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13567…48

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    #62
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,584 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    Do you think this is being brought in to slow the spread of the virus? Seriously? It's being brought in because the virus gave them breathing room to do it. That argument you mention is either an appalling straw man.... Or you believed it.

    The authorities using Covid as a means to fast-track agendas is an appaling use of the emergency situation -

    Course its not going to stop the virus spread , but Dublin city council should be tacking how we can safly use public transport again , rather than reducing speed limit - and all that money they might make from enforcing a draconian 30 kmh speed limit, particuly from people who need to use ther cars for work.


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    #63
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,477 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    The average speed in rush hour traffic in Dublin before this was something like 17km/h. You are going to be going faster regardless. You're not losing out.


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    #64
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,584 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    The average speed in rush hour traffic in Dublin before this was something like 17km/h. You are going to be going faster regardless. You're not losing out.

    The issue is not going to be in rush hour - it will be outside rush hours when ther is little traffic - thats when it becomes a nonsense !


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    #65
    double jobbing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 322 ✭✭double jobbing


    Seth Brundle wrote: »

    I'd also like to point out that in nearly 50 posts in this thread, nobody has put forward a credible reason to retain the current speed limits!
    !

    Sanity?

    Pressure on an already stressed economy? The effect on cross town bus commuters?

    The fact anyone of sound mind and grown up who gets themselves hit by a car on a road where the approaching motorist is within the speed limit and driving with attention is almost always a negligent heads in the cloud gob****e?

    What kind of child are you to think 30kph is an acceptable speed limit?

    Surely the councillors can't be stupid enough to vote for this.

    Does anybody know what exactly is the result when, as will happen here, the public submissions will be entirely negative save for some cyclists who by then will be angry the lockdown has been lifted and people are allowed to have fun again? Are they duty bound to take the submissions on board?


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    #66
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,477 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Fun? Again? We're talking about driving in Dublin city. If you do that for fun...


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    #67
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    All these anti car measures are sure to get dublins crippled retail and hospitality sectors right back on track when nobody can deliver anything to them...


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    #68
    Truthvader
    Registered Users Posts: 1,826 ✭✭✭Truthvader


    Better Than Christ wrote: »
    Look at Bray, a few miles down the road from Dún Laoghaire, where you're free to drive and park pretty much wherever the hell you want. The exact same thing happened there. The decline of both towns accelerated around the same time - when the M50 was extended and alternatives like Dundrum opened.

    Again talk to anyone who had a business in Dun Laoghaire. The factors you identify may well have contributed but Keegan drove the public out to any alternative


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    #69
    Sheep_shear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭Sheep_shear


    Corca Baiscinn wrote: »
    30km/h is standard in a large number of European Cities and becoming more and more the default speed in UK urban areas and doubt all these municipalities are controlled by "green loopers"

    Egh, and it sucks. Really. Doing 20mph in areas where it's not needed is just the worst. Oh and this of course only applies to motorists, bicycles frequently try to "undertake" you in such zones.


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    #70
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Truthvader wrote: »
    Again talk to anyone who had a business in Dun Laoghaire. The factors you identify may well have contributed but Keegan drove the public out to any alternative

    Retailers consistently massively overestimate how much of their business comes from drivers.
    double jobbing wrote: »
    Sanity?

    Pressure on an already stressed economy? The effect on cross town bus commuters?

    If you can't stay sane while driving 30kph you shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car.

    What percentage of their journey times do people really think a bus is at 50kph for?

    I personally think a 30kpm limit on the Malahide Rd seems a bit excessive (and not sure why the Howth Rd escapes it) but its only from the Artane roundabout anyway which is 4km from the canal. So if you somehow were going to travel at 50kpm the whole way and are now restricted to 30kph you would be losing a whopping 3.2 minutes.


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    #71
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,714 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Retailers consistently massively overestimate how much of their business comes from drivers.



    If you can't stay sane while driving 30kph you shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car.

    What percentage of their journey times do people really think a bus is at 50kph for?

    I personally think a 30kpm limit on the Malahide Rd seems a bit excessive (and not sure why the Howth Rd escapes it) but its only from the Artane roundabout anyway which is 4km from the canal. So if you somehow were going to travel at 50kpm the whole way and are now restricted to 30kph you would be losing a whopping 3.2 minutes.

    This line keeps being spouted... at it misses the point completely

    In the few hours morning/evening when traffic is heavy then yes, absolutely is 50 km/h an hour a dream in most cases.

    But... what about before or after rush hour? Or late at night? Or the weekend?

    THAT is the problem. You could go with variable limits I suppose but the only time they'd be suitable is when they wouldn't be needed anyway because of the aforementioned volume of traffic.


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    #72
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    double jobbing wrote: »
    30km is an unatural speed to maintain for any long period Grandad.
    You're driving a tonne of tempered and shaped steel and glass, powered by the purified and liquified remains of dinosaurs, but apparently it's the speed that's "unnatural". :rolleyes:

    This argument was made when the first 30km/h limits were brought in on the quays. It was stupid and baseless then, and it's stupid and baseless now.

    There is no right to drive at any given speed anywhere. Just because a given speed may be possible, doesn't mean it should be permissible.

    The difference in time over short distances is minimal. And typically there is no difference when you factor in traffic lights.

    However the impact on vulnerable road users of faster traffic, is huge.


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    #73
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    But... what about before or after rush hour? Or late at night? Or the weekend?

    You lose 3.2 minutes of your life - ignoring junctions, roundabouts and any accelerating and decelerating you obviously normally end up doing. I suspect you'll get over it.

    I wasn't even talking about rush hour - buses simply don't spend that long at top speed.


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    #74
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    double jobbing wrote: »
    A 30 KPH limit for Dublin.

    30 km/h = 18 MPH.

    Slooowwwww is not the word for it.

    Problem is, that everybody, but everybody will break the speed limit by design or by accident, hence it instills a bad attitude towards a limit that's just not realistic.


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    #75
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,714 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    seamus wrote: »
    You're driving a tonne of tempered and shaped steel and glass, powered by the purified and liquified remains of dinosaurs, but apparently it's the speed that's "unnatural". :rolleyes:

    This argument was made when the first 30km/h limits were brought in on the quays. It was stupid and baseless then, and it's stupid and baseless now.

    There is no right to drive at any given speed anywhere. Just because a given speed may be possible, doesn't mean it should be permissible.

    The difference in time over short distances is minimal. And typically there is no difference when you factor in traffic lights.

    However the impact on vulnerable road users of faster traffic, is huge.

    And that right there is both the reason and problem with this.

    This infantilisation of society. Instead of expecting kids and grown adults to use common sense and take responsibility for their actions and safety around traffic as we did for generations - suddenly we've decided that these are bizarre concepts and we need to protect people from themselves by penalising others instead. Oh you stepped out into the road without looking eh? Damn that driver who was legally in that roadspace at a legal speed! :rolleyes:

    It's absolute nonsense that has been drip-fed from the US for decades and accelerated by social media virtue-signalling and validation-seeking.


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    #76
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,477 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    In the few hours morning/evening when traffic is heavy then yes, absolutely is 50 km/h an hour a dream in most cases.
    for the 4km mentioned - assuming no lights, and you're able to drive at 50km/h along the full length uninterrupted, it's a 5 minute trip.
    at 30km/h, it takes 8 minutes. so a theoretical maximum difference of 3 whole minutes.

    bear in mind that traffic lights and anything which might make you slow down at all will reduce that 3 minute advantage. probably to two minutes, maybe. that's it. at the cost to you of two minutes, we get quieter streets, more pleasant places for everyone who has to use that road who *isn't* in the car.


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    #77
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    2nd gear, 3rd gear? all the way . . .


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    #78
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Seems extreme overkill. There are no speed related deaths in Dublin. Almost all speed related accidents are on R roads in rural areas. There is no safety case for having a 30kph limit on dual carriageways that are almost completely separated from pedestrians and cyclists. How can buses offer competitive journey times if they are limited to 30kph + time for boarding and alighting and waiting in traffic?

    Better ways to improve safety and urban realm for example, more pedestrian, bicycle and pubilc transport dedicated spaces and less cars in the centre.


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    #79
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,477 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Seems extreme overkill. There are no speed related deaths in Dublin.
    it makes streets more pleasant for everyone else, though. it's not just about ped deaths.
    this is the thing about cars - they benefit only the occupants and externalise the costs on everyone else.


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    #80
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    This infantilisation of society. Instead of expecting kids and grown adults to use common sense and take responsibility for their actions and safety around traffic as we did for generations - suddenly we've decided that these are bizarre concepts and we need to protect people from themselves by penalising others instead.
    Yeah, and that worked out really well because of course nobody ever died on Irish roads until these pesky laws all came in.

    Driving is not a right. It is a utility activity that is necessary for the smooth functioning of a modern society and a modern economy.

    The use of vehicles must be balanced against this utility. The movement of vehicles must regulated so as to maximise utility while minimising the impact on society.

    If a road traffic law can reduce deaths and injuries on the road but has the side-effect of slightly inconviencing some others, then boo hoo.

    Driving on the public roads isn't supposed to be fun. It's an activity of necessity. If you want to enjoy driving your car, go take it to a track. Driving is a chore, laws do not need to make it more enjoyable at the expense of lives.


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    #81
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    why not 20 kph? or 10?


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    #82
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,477 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    cgcsb wrote: »
    How can buses offer competitive journey times if they are limited to 30kph + time for boarding and alighting and waiting in traffic?
    buses spend so little time at 50km/m compared to their average speed it barely makes a difference. i live 5km from o'connell bridge, and a typical bus trip to get there is probably half an hour. 20 minutes would be possible in very light traffic.
    that - at the fast end of the spectrum - is an average speed of 15km/h. a drop from 50km/h to 30km/h would barely make a dent in that.


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    #83
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    why not 20 kph? or 10?
    Diminishing returns.
    See the "utility" and "balance" bits in my post there.

    See the graph at the start of this document.
    https://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/publications/road_traffic/world_report/speed_en.pdf?ua=1

    There is a very clear turning point at 30km/h where the liklihood of a vulnerable road user dying, shoots up. In relative terms, there isn't a huge difference in death rates between 10, 20 or 30km/h. But there is between 30 and 40km/h. And way higher again between 30 and 50.


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    #84
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    how many road deaths are attributable to speed in Dublin city annually?


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    #85
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    it makes streets more pleasant for everyone else, though. it's not just about ped deaths.
    this is the thing about cars - they benefit only the occupants and externalise the costs on everyone else.
    I do love me a bit of finger pointing in the morning!


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    #86
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    30 km/h = 18 MPH.

    Slooowwwww is not the word for it.

    Problem is, that everybody, but everybody will break the speed limit by design or by accident, hence it instills a bad attitude towards a limit that's just not realistic.

    Well to quote myself, "everybody but everybody will break the speed limit, either by design or by accident".

    Conor Faughnan of the AA is incredulous to this madnesss of a 30 km/h limit on main arterial roads & dual carriageways, suggesting that introducing a rediculous law will make drivers indifferent towards sensible speed limits.


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    #87
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    buses spend so little time at 50km/m compared to their average speed it barely makes a difference. i live 5km from o'connell bridge, and a typical bus trip to get there is probably half an hour. 20 minutes would be possible in very light traffic.
    that - at the fast end of the spectrum - is an average speed of 15km/h. a drop from 50km/h to 30km/h would barely make a dent in that.

    Bus journeys from further will be heavily effected though and the ability to deliver express limited stop services will be damaged. The BusConnects proposals to slash journey times will be eliminated by this.


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    #88
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    well it wont be enforced and i imagine wont be obeyed


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    #89
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    it makes streets more pleasant for everyone else, though. it's not just about ped deaths.
    this is the thing about cars - they benefit only the occupants and externalise the costs on everyone else.

    I would 100% agree with you in relation to busy commercial streets in central areas, but this impacts arterial roads with low footfall.


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    #90
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    Well to quote myself, "everybody but everybody will break the speed limit, either by design or by accident".

    Conor Faughnan of the AA is incredulous to this madnesss of a 30 km/h limit on main arterial roads & dual carriageways, suggesting that introducing a ridiculous law will make drivers indifferent towards sensible speed limits.
    As a speed it requires a fair bit of concentration to hold for very long as it feels unnaturally slow.


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    #91
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,477 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    how many road deaths are attributable to speed in Dublin city annually?
    it's not just about deaths.
    there's multiple streets being left at 50km/h anyway. amiens street, for example. dorset street *is* affected, but that has so many traffic lights i'd say your ability to get much above 30 is limited as is.

    i remember reading before, can't remember the source so i can't make any claims as to how trustworthy it is, that when these lower limits are introduced, that they *know* people will continue to speed. however, the desired effect is that instead of people doing 60 in a 50 zone, they'll now do say 45 in a 30 zone, so it will on average reduce speeds, even if not policed (and i don't expect it to be policed).

    a drop from 60 to 45 would be a near halving of kinetic energy, and similar effects on braking distance, etc.


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