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George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

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    #4082
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,500 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    BluePlanet wrote: »
    https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/2020/05/mapping-police-killings-black-americans-200531105741757.html

    Yet black males are at 6.5% commit 53% of murders.

    A serious crime rate about 8 times as high as whites.

    So African Americans are dying at the hands of a police at a significantly lower rate given the scale of interactions for serious and violent crime.

    Culture and values, its not skin pigmentation.


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    #4083
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Nermal wrote: »
    Why are you using the population as the denominator?

    Do you think the police kill the population at random?

    They kill people who are committing crimes.

    Is that while they are committing crimes? Or after they have stopped committing crimes?


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    #4084
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    BluePlanet wrote: »
    are you kidding?
    There is nothing to compare.

    The_Economist_police_shootings.0.png
    https://www.vox.com/identities/2016/8/13/17938170/us-police-shootings-gun-violence-homicides

    How many of the victims were armed?
    How many police were killed?
    How many unarmed intruders were killed by householders?
    How many school shootings?
    The U.S. is a gun crazy country and that wont change. Police wont wait to be shot at. If in doubt take him out.


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    #4085
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,500 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Rogerrabit wrote: »
    The police must have had good reason to pin him down on the ground in that fashion. He looks like a guy that could take care of himself. Maybe the police officer feared for his own life.

    He was a big man who liked cocaine and fentanyl.

    4 might not have been enough if he started.


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    #4086
    StackSteevens
    Closed Accounts Posts: 873 ✭✭✭StackSteevens


    Carfacemandog wrote: »
    Yeah, he definitely looks and his name sounds black doesn't he?

    Just to be clear, are you claiming that so long as you only discriminate against a one or a few different races (and not all of them) that it's not racism? Is that really, honestly what you think racism entails?

    I'm claiming nothing.

    But, if I ever require an idiot to put words in my mouth, you may rest assured that I'll certainly consider you for the job.


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    #4087
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,080 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Guys, if there is more crime in black neighborhoods compared to non black, or less black neighborhoods it stands to reason that they will be "targeted" more, resulting in the likelihood that they "suffer" more at the hands of the police...

    Even remove color altogether: Those people in those neighborhoods are committing crime more than those people in those neighborhoods.

    What are the cops to do? They can't go to places where there is no crime....they go to places where there is crime....and if one place has more crime than another place, then that place will likely be targeted more and suffer more...

    We need to stop pressing this as all about color.....it should be simply all about people...


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    #4088
    1800_Ladladlad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,354 ✭✭✭1800_Ladladlad


    Twitter has been an active player in highlighting people/companies like this.

    amv93yv_460swp.webp
    img


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    #4089
    completedit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭completedit


    Black out Tuesday from the same.people who openly call travellers "knackers" and barely see Roma gypsies as people


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    #4090
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,500 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    joe40 wrote: »
    That is assuming that everyone killed by the police are violent criminals. That is not the case.
    There is always more crime in poorer areas that is true for all countries.

    Poverty and neglect are more common in black areas, crime is a byproduct.

    There would not be anger like this among the black community and in fact all communities, if this was not an issue. Of course there are opportunistic hooligans attaching themselves to the protest just for violence and looting.

    But there are also thousands of people all across America protesting this issue. There is a lot of anger and that does not come from nothing.

    This will not be dealt with by force alone, radical reform is needed in many areas of American life, from politics to education changes are needed.

    In a way Europe benefitted from social reform in the aftermath of WW2 America is stagnant.

    I don't disagree with you on those broad points.

    The race baiting industry is driving this forward and that's largely political.

    Given the off the scale crime rates in many Africa American communities, there should be police on every block, make gang membership a criminal offence, etc.

    That wouldn't be tolerated though, look at the reaction to Trump when he suggested really upping the police presence in those communities, something they desperately need.


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    #4091
    BluePlanet
    Registered Users Posts: 2,354 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Danzy wrote: »
    Yet black males are at 6.5% commit 53% of murders.

    A serious crime rate about 8 times as high as whites.

    So African Americans are dying at the hands of a police at a significantly lower rate given the scale of interactions for serious and violent crime.

    Culture and values, its not skin pigmentation.

    It's adjusted for population.

    here's another source:
    Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites.

    Most victims were reported to be armed (83%); however, black victims were more likely to be unarmed (14.8%) than white (9.4%) or Hispanic (5.8%) victims.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/


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    #4092
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ELM327 wrote: »
    You're insulting a male of asian heritage and making a disparaging comment related to his eyes and his intelligence.
    How is it not racist?

    His facial expression through the video has dumb all over it.
    No intelligence behind those eyes, is a figure of speech.
    You’re the one assuming it’s racist, it’s not.


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    #4093
    Carfacemandog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,042 ✭✭✭Carfacemandog


    Danzy wrote: »
    It's not disproportionate, given that violent crime is dominated by a group in America, that are 6.5% of the population and commit 53% of the murders. Similar rates for other serious and violent crimes.

    That is the key reason more African Americans die at police hands. For dealing with criminals the death rate is the same across races.

    Don't have the police looking for you in connection with serious crime is the first thing to change.
    Are you lying about statistics for effect, in order to push a racist agenda again?

    African Americans make up 12.7% of the population, not 6.5%.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity

    In 2018, black people accounted for 48%, in 2017 and 2016 it was 47%, in 2015 it was 48% and in 2014 it was 47%.
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/topic-pages/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2015.xls
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/expanded-homicide-data/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2014.xls


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    #4094
    joe40
    Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    ELM327 wrote: »
    I wouldnt be taking any lessons on equality from al jazeera.
    Their country's record on discrimination based on religion, gender and sexuality is appalling.

    https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

    Fair enough on Al Jazeera, but this is the data/website they were using.

    I believe police brutality does disproportionately affect the black community, but the tackling police brutality in general is required.
    There seems to be a macho militaristic attitude, combined with poor training which is causing a lot of the problems.


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    #4095
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I think he was saying the males would be 6.5..


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    #4096
    completedit
    Registered Users Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭completedit


    Are the blacks just not perceived as the nackers in jobstown. Those same people have the same barriers to upward social mobility as blacks in America do. America has a lot of affirmative action employment programme and maybe rightly so so it's not as case or America being racist. Black culture is revered and idolised in the USA. Black rappers, singers, actors, sports stars. There is no way it is a fundamentally racist country in the 21st century. A divided one. The black culture exists in its own bubble but it's not a racist one

    I absolutely think they have a problem with an agressive police force, but it's an aggressive country and the police force just reflect that.


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    #4097
    Carfacemandog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,042 ✭✭✭Carfacemandog


    StackSteevens wrote: »
    I'm claiming nothing.

    But, if I ever require an idiot to put words in my mouth, you may rest assured that I'll certainly consider you for the job.
    So then please enlighten me an clarify what you meant when you posted "I'm a bit confused - is it racist to criticise this Asian-American chap - who goes by the name of Tou Thoa - and was one of the four involved in George Floyd's death, or am I allowed to assume that he's white for the purpose of voicing my outrage?"


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    #4098
    Homelander
    Registered Users Posts: 4,379 ✭✭✭Homelander


    Or else he just incorrectly recalled figures. Almost half the recorded crime with just 12 percent of the population hardly radically changes the point being made.

    The figure for Travelers in Ireland is somewhat relatable. Can't remember the exact figure but it's wildly disproportionate, they make up one or two percent of the general population but a significant percentage of the incarcerated population.


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    #4099
    BLIZZARD7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭BLIZZARD7


    Rogerrabit wrote: »
    The police must have had good reason to pin him down on the ground in that fashion. He looks like a guy that could take care of himself. Maybe the police officer feared for his own life.

    He was handcuffed on the ground and unarmed. The police were armed...


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    #4100
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    walshb wrote: »
    Guys, if there is more crime in black neighborhoods compared to non black, or less black neighborhoods it stands to reason that they will be "targeted" more, resulting in the likelihood that they "suffer" more at the hands of the police...

    Even remove color altogether: Those people in those neighborhoods are committing crime more than those people in those neighborhoods.

    What are the cops to do? They can't go to places where there is no crime....they go to places where there is crime....and if one place has more crime than another place, then that place will likely be targeted more and suffer more...

    We need to stop pressing this as all about color.....it should be simply all about people...

    +1 , crime is directly related to poverty , it is the poor committing the vast majority of crime, if we look at income and poverty stats we see that black communities have the highest poverty rates, its not about skin colour, its about poverty. Police actively patrol and are more likely to draw weapons in poor communities, which just happen to have a lot more black people. White people in poor communities are assaulted by police and killed at proportional rates to their economic status but its just not as 'sexy' a news story.

    https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/2018/demo/p60-263/figure1.pdf

    https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-raceethnicity/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D


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    #4101
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Rogerrabit wrote: »
    The police must have had good reason to pin him down on the ground in that fashion. He looks like a guy that could take care of himself. Maybe the police officer feared for his own life.
    There should be, and I have no doubt there is, procedures and equipment for dealing with people who resist arrest. Kneeling on the throat isnt one of them


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    #4102
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Homelander wrote: »
    Or else he just incorrectly recalled figures. Almost half the recorded crime with just 12 percent of the population hardly radically changes the point being made.

    The figure for Travelers in Ireland is somewhat relatable. Can't remember the exact figure but it's wildly disproportionate, they make up one or two percent of the general population but a significant percentage of the incarcerated population.
    And all innocent I suppose


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    #4103
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,500 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    BluePlanet wrote: »
    It's adjusted for population.

    here's another source:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

    Those stats show that the police are not disproportionately targeting African Americans. It shows that given the majority of violent crime in America comes from one tiny community, that African Americans are underrepresented.

    I'm not being provocative I'm pointing out that given the vast scale and the seriousness of crime in many African American communities that the death rate is much lower than it suggests.

    The police in America have problems and are often crazy but the real problem for black America is in their community.

    That's not going to change, even if all police officers were black themselves I suspect the death rate would go up as they would not try to avoid black areas in case they made the headlines, they'd go and do the job.


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    #4104
    Carfacemandog
    Registered Users Posts: 2,042 ✭✭✭Carfacemandog


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I think he was saying the males would be 6.5..

    Fair enough, though that would mean he is even further inflating the murder rate among black males where in 2018 at a glance, women accounted for about 10-11% of murders.

    It's a high figure already no doubt, why he wants to try to tack on an extra 10% though is peculiar, though possibly is just to make it look like the majority when that is not the case. There are priors with that poster, which I linked to in my previous post.


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    #4105
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,500 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Carfacemandog wrote: »
    Are you lying about statistics for effect, in order to push a racist agenda again?

    African Americans make up 12.7% of the population, not 6.5%.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity

    In 2018, black people accounted for 48%, in 2017 and 2016 it was 47%, in 2015 it was 48% and in 2014 it was 47%.
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/topic-pages/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2015.xls
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/expanded-homicide-data/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2014.xls


    As if the figures you present aren't jaw dropping.

    Your lordship must be a racist as well.

    I've no idea how you think turning a blind eye to that problem helps African Americans ?, helps you, helps your narrative but it doesn't change the outcome for them.


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    #4106
    joe40
    Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    Danzy wrote: »
    Those stats show that the police are not disproportionately targeting African Americans. It shows that given the majority of violent crime in America comes from one tiny community, that African Americans are underrepresented.

    I'm not being provocative I'm pointing out that given the vast scale and the seriousness of crime in many African American communities that the death rate is much lower than it suggests.

    The police in America have problems and are often crazy but the real problem for black America is in their community.

    That's not going to change, even if all police officers were black themselves I suspect the death rate would go up as they would not try to avoid black areas in case they made the headlines, they'd go and do the job.

    The poverty and neglect in black communities is a large part of the problem but it is far too simplistic to say that this is the fault of the black communities themselves. That is part of the larger problems in America in relation to inequality and the political structures that ensure it perpetuates.

    Police killings are not all shootouts with criminals in many cases the victims are unarmed and killings are unjustified Floyd is just one example.


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    #4107
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,500 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Homelander wrote: »
    Or else he just incorrectly recalled figures. Almost half the recorded crime with just 12 percent of the population hardly radically changes the point being made.

    The figure for Travelers in Ireland is somewhat relatable. Can't remember the exact figure but it's wildly disproportionate, they make up one or two percent of the general population but a significant percentage of the incarcerated population.

    No, it can't be that, and while his referenced post showed much the same, that their is an incredible crisis there.

    I'm in the "literally Hitler" category.

    I'm off to read David Irving's holocaust studies and drink coffee from my Jeremy Corbyn mug.


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    #4108
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Danzy wrote: »
    Yet black males are at 6.5% commit 53% of murders.

    A serious crime rate about 8 times as high as whites.

    So African Americans are dying at the hands of a police at a significantly lower rate given the scale of interactions for serious and violent crime.

    Culture and values, its not skin pigmentation.
    ok lets try and understand WHY 6.5% of the population commit 53% of the murders.

    Anti black racism makes it harder for black men to get jobs so they turn to crime - yep, i buy that. But when business owners look at the crime stats such as the one above, even if they dont hate black people, it may well give them pause. So we saw the emergence of Gangsta culture, a celebration of machismo, thuggery and misogyny: the Fresh Prince's mother had to send him from Philadelphia to Bel Air because a couple of guys who were up to no good started making trouble in their neighbourhood. Uncle Phil had no truck with that kinda carry on and so Will grew up safe.

    About 70% of african american children are born out of wedlock. does that matter? we're not allowed to say that kids benefit from the traditional family unit so lets just gloss over that one.

    The common denominator is always poverty.


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    #4109
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Billy Mays wrote: »
    I'm gonna have to know this guy Floyd's criminal history before I decide whether the cop should be charged with his death or should walk away scott free icon14.png

    Er, what? Seriously, what?????

    America prides itself on being a democracy, founded in liberty and with its citizens endowed with certain inalienable rights.

    And the thing about rights is that they accrue to people even if you don't particularly like them. Suspects have rights, accused people have rights, police officers have rights. Cops have the right to life and security the same as anyone else, and they have the right to use minimum force to restrain people who may be a threat to their own or the public safety.

    That does not extend to a cop, kneeling on a prone suspect's neck for any length of time longer than it takes to restrain him by other means. Like, er, handcuffs, or the inside of a secure police vehicle.

    Sadly, the Supreme Court of the USA once ruled that no black person in America had ANY rights that any white American was bound to respect. That was back in the 1850s, fair enough, and it has been superseded by later Supreme Court rulings enshrining equality of rights between all races. But sometimes what the Law says and what certain people "feel" are not the same things at all.

    The spirit of the ruling of the Dred Scott case still infuses many in America to this day. And, it appears, many posting on this forum.


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    #4110
    callmehal
    Site Banned Posts: 461 ✭✭callmehal


    What's going on with this being everywhere? Why do people care so much about riots in America and so on? It's been talked about everywhere.


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    #4111
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,500 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    ok lets try and understand WHY 6.5% of the population commit 53% of the murders.

    Anti black racism makes it harder for black men to get jobs so they turn to crime - yep, i buy that. But when business owners look at the crime stats such as the one above, even if they dont hate black people, it may well give them pause. So we saw the emergence of Gangsta culture, a celebration of machismo, thuggery and misogyny: the Fresh Prince's mother had to send him from Philadelphia to Bel Air because a couple of guys who were up to no good started making trouble in their neighbourhood. Uncle Phil had no truck with that kinda carry on and so Will grew up safe.

    About 70% of african american children are born out of wedlock. does that matter? we're not allowed to say that kids benefit from the traditional family unit so lets just gloss over that one.


    Unemployment for African Americans is very low, with the crack down on illegal immigration, the jobs overrepresented by black people are seeing serious wage growth over the last few years.

    West Africans are among the most successful immigrant communities in America. No one should doubt that African Americans have had it rough in America but the main crisis in the community is internal and values driven. Everything else is secondary to that in scale and damage done.


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