Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

The EU 'rescue' package comes at a big price

Options
245

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    fash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,271 ✭✭✭fash


    ArchXStanton wrote: »
    You really think the plebs will get a vote on a federal Europe? And even if some of them do they'll have to vote again or just get outright ignored, they seem to be in a mad dash to federalise or drive the "project" in such a direction were countries will have no choice since Brexit, it's a dirty organisation

    Oh no- being asked to voting a 2nd time (& not even by the EU)! That's so oppressive!
    Are you saying that the powers that be don't understand that no means no in relation to divorce or abortion or Sinn Fein getting into government?


  • Options
    #33
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,225 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    If this money comes with conditions, especially anything that requires 'harmonization' of corporate tax, we should certainly tell the EU to get fcuked.

    My biggest worry is that we'll have a weak government, snowed under by financial pressures, who'll be inclined to take the cash even if we end up getting completely fcuked over for it.


  • Options
    #34
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    .But the issue with that (as I said above) is that there is no overriding EU identity.

    There is no overriding EU Identity and yet we are committed to ever increasing integration via the Maastricht Treaty. Different languages, different interests, different cultures...different identities.


  • Options
    #35
    joseywhales
    Registered Users Posts: 4,009 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    There is a debt market out there, why do we need these schemes to borrow or redistribute money? Let the market decide , if the respective countries are good long term investments, they'll be queueing up to buy their bonds. Why create this politically contentious allocation scheme. Simply looks like a way to create power from nothing, like a dad cutting cake for his children.


  • Options
    #36
    Varik
    Registered Users Posts: 12,486 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    Anyone find a full list of the amounts per country.

    Greek economy isn't the best but with a population just over twice ours they've managed to only have 5% the deaths per capita and are getting 10 times the amount.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    ArchXStanton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭ArchXStanton


    fash wrote: »
    Oh no- being asked to voting a 2nd time (& not even by the EU)! That's so oppressive!
    Are you saying that the powers that be don't understand that no means no in relation to divorce or abortion or Sinn Fein getting into government?

    It only seems to work one way though, when the EU doesn't get the desired result, it's laughable that it claims to be some gold standard in democracy, in the EU a no vote is only ever temporary and a yes vote is forever..


  • Options
    #38
    Fred Cryton
    Registered Users Posts: 949 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    Harpon wrote: »
    This is outrageous and yet FG have come out in support of it. On a per capita basis we should be getting about 7 billion.

    This is simply a transfer of wealth from Irish taxpayers to those benefiting the most- German/French/Italian taxpayers. They claim these countries are getting more proportionally because they have been ‘harder hit.’ Very hard to believe these countries will be any worse off than Ireland. And funny how the Germans never thought of doing that when Ireland was amongst the hardest hit during the financial crises.

    Oh and that’s not all. As if that wasn’t bad enough, the plan requires tax reforms, and the introduction of digital taxes, which will be the end of Ireland’s status as a tax haven, our economy is going to get decimated from this.


    Actually we'll probably get zero, because it is voluntary to avail of the funds and it's likely we won't do so.



    Better for Ireland to finance itself on the international markets and get its budget balanced in short order, rather than take money from a bailout fund with various strings attached.


    It would be interesting to know how they calculate which countries are "hardest hit". If we're talking about a peak to trough hit to GDP, this is skewed against Ireland as our GDP is inflated by multinationals. These sorts of details need to be worked out.


  • Options
    #39
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,796 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    I think we are better off getting out before this. I see trouble ahead on the continent if this path continues. There will be trouble in Ireland. I don't think we should be a part of that.

    We get to the nub with your post here.

    You pretty much want Ireland to leave the EU (get off the "path" now before it is "too late").

    Do you think that will cause us any problems or will it be a great move?

    Do you think it will be a boon for Ireland's wealth, Ireland's political stability, even Ireland's sovereignty?

    If there is, as you darkly suggest "trouble ahead on the continent if this path continues" how exactly do you think we will stay clear of it by leaving the EU now?

    On the "rescue" ideas (keeping the scare quotes) I assume there will be no onus on us to accept assistance if we do not want it (even if it is less likely we could shirk helping to pay for it).

    It's funny/tragic - if there were no EU level moves/discussion going on about economic aid in the advent of the virus we'd be hearing from your ilk about how the EU is failing to protect its members, has left Italy/Spain/Greece in the lurch as usual/is an utterly useless organisation etc etc.


  • Options
    #40
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,796 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Varik wrote: »
    Anyone find a full list of the amounts per country.

    Greek economy isn't the best but with a population just over twice ours they've managed to only have 5% the deaths per capita and are getting 10 times the amount.

    Just on Greece, although they coped well so far, I think they have a massive reliance on tourism [will be stuffed for a while post-Covid].
    Their economy is still very weak from previous crisis + they have huge amounts of public debt.


  • Options
    #41
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,772 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    And there will be nothing said and it will be accepted meekly as we like to show we're the best little boys in the EU.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Once the uk offically leaves (1st Jan 2021) and from then onwards there will have to be increases in contributions to pay into the EU's new defecit.

    Further down the line there's 6 more countries looking to join (West Balkans Six), they on average have about 1/2 the GDP-PP compared to Germany.
    Factor this in future budgets. Expansion will likely increase as time goes on (Barcelona Agreement) with further partnerships across N.Africa and the Cold Front.
    Turkey is keen to join, however they haven't been ideal buddies of late, having threatend to dump their 3m unwanted economic migrants into Greece.
    Beyond that (Turkey) 2040+, and Ukraine wouldn't be out of the question.


  • Options
    #43
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Overall I do think the EU is good for Europe and Ireland.

    Its a bit like the mafia though, come to us and we will mind you look after you, but you have to obey and you can never leave.

    The UK did.


  • Options
    #44
    Varik
    Registered Users Posts: 12,486 ✭✭✭✭Varik


    Don't mind Ireland having it's contributions increased, those rising means we're doing well ( or at least we're arguably doing well) and they could fall as well as rise. Acquiescing on these tax changes is just a negative, there's no benefit and it's all downhill.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    The UK did.

    The UK thought it'd be a firm no to brexit and they could tell their detractors at home to shut it. If the government at the time thought it would be yes they'd never have had the vote.


  • Options
    #45
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Overall I do think the EU is good for Europe and Ireland.

    Its a bit like the mafia though, come to us and we will mind you look after you, but you have to obey and you can never leave.

    The UK did.


  • Options
    #46
    Harpon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 166 ✭✭Harpon


    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    Actually we'll probably get zero, because it is voluntary to avail of the funds and it's likely we won't do so.



    Better for Ireland to finance itself on the international markets and get its budget balanced in short order, rather than take money from a bailout fund with various strings attached.


    It would be interesting to know how they calculate which countries are "hardest hit". If we're talking about a peak to trough hit to GDP, this is skewed against Ireland as our GDP is inflated by multinationals. These sorts of details need to be worked out.

    250bn of the package is loans, the rest is grants, we would be made not to get as much of the grants as we could


  • Options
    #47
    Sweet.Science
    Registered Users Posts: 2,837 ✭✭✭Sweet.Science


    Time to leave the EU


  • Options
    #48
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    You dont have to take the package.
    You can get your middle income workers to sweat blood for it instead.


  • Options
    #49
    greenfield21
    Registered Users Posts: 976 ✭✭✭greenfield21


    Don is going to come for our tax incentives anyway, the Germans will never let autos be hit to get the long awaited trade deal through. I think we may aswell take the 2b now.


  • Options
    #50
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,481 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    I remember I was showing sympathy with the Germans when they were told to bail out everyone in 2010. Almost everyone here was saying "they should give more".

    Not so nice when we are in the same situation. Net contributors and getting screwed.

    1.9bn out of 750bn.

    It's enough to make you agree with Nigel Farage! Hungary, a far smaller economy than ours (and a quasi dictatorship), gets 9bn!


  • Options
    #51
    BluePlanet
    Registered Users Posts: 2,344 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    I remember I was showing sympathy with the Germans when they were told to bail out everyone in 2010. Almost everyone here was saying "they should give more".

    Not so nice when we are in the same situation. Net contributors and getting screwed.

    1.9bn out of 750bn.

    It's enough to make you agree with Nigel Farage! Hungary, a far smaller economy than ours (and a quasi dictatorship), gets 9bn!
    Yeah because we operate as a tax haven depriving our allies of revenue and THEN we refuse to take Apple's tax windfall.
    It's little wonder we aren't getting a better handout


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    brickster69
    Registered Users Posts: 5,409 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Wait till Irelands sons and daughters get deployed to the Western front. Just the start this.

    All roads lead to Rome.



  • Options
    #53
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    The EU package is a way for them to tie everyone harder together.

    If the recovery programme is approved, it would represent a significant change for the EU because it would involve borrowing by the commission that is jointly guaranteed by member states.

    How will the loans be paid back?
    The commission has proposed that it should be allowed to raise money itself.
    It has suggested it could do this through taxes designed to pursue its political aims of more equitable taxation and combating climate change.


  • Options
    #54
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,481 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    893bet wrote: »
    This windfall would never come Ireland’s way. It was funnelled through Ireland at a low tax rate. If that is deemed to have been incorrect the tax due will be due in the relevant jurisdictions of which a tiny percentage will be owed to Ireland.

    Stop reading the Sun.

    100%

    There was a guy on radio this morning defending this and claiming Ireland could take €15bn from Apple.

    Not true. Every other country in Europe would be in the European courts looking for their cut.

    This has already been flagged by other countries.


  • Options
    #55
    Sheep_shear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 138 ✭✭Sheep_shear


    brickster69 wrote: »
    Wait till Irelands sons and daughters get deployed to the Western front. Just the start this.

    The Western front... Mayo?


  • Options
    #56
    RobbingBandit
    Registered Users Posts: 18,087 ✭✭✭✭RobbingBandit


    I can see them taking the two billion with open arms they're gonna need to find their own wages and the massive political pensions from somewhere. There will be serious fallout from this crisis but the rulers have to keep themselves looked after


  • Options
    #57
    Ulysses Gaze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    Sweet.Science wrote: »
    Time to leave the EU

    Agreed.

    The EU is a dying whore.


  • Options
    #58
    McHardcore
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭McHardcore


    I reckon the econmy will recover fast enough. It was in hibernation during the crises, it is not like past financial crises. Plus, people will be looking to spend all their saved money during this time.


  • Options
    #59
    the purple tin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,943 ✭✭✭✭the purple tin


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    This is gas.

    https://www.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/eus-750bn-aid-plan-comes-with-tax-sting-in-the-tail-for-ireland-39239811.html



    Maybe I have missed something but I don't recall giving permission along with every other Irish person for Brussels to tax us.

    From 2028 we'll start being taxed from Brussels apparently - who knew!?

    So we should accept €2 billion (Ireland's miniscule quota in this "rescue") from the EU in return for what? Calling Brussels our capital and surrendering what is left of our fiscal and just about every other vestige of sovereignty?

    Doesn't sound like a great deal.

    The government should say no and simply borrow the money ourselves.


    Brussels is just where the headquarters are. Everyone knows that it is Germany that calls the shots in Europe.


  • Options
    #60
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Do you anti-EU lot just sit around waiting for these threads, or are you sent out at a particular time to start one? Just wondering.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    greenfield21
    Registered Users Posts: 976 ✭✭✭greenfield21


    Anybody who thinks Ireland should leave the EU now is a complete idiot, I'd be more annoyed at the government squandering the windfalls of tax income knowing it's completely unsustainable. They should be putting this money to far better uses for long term benefit


Advertisement