Catalan independence referendum, 2017

EagererBeaver · 13-11-2019 7:28am

Tear gas, forced removals, physically dragging people across the border.

It's just that when spanish police do it, you try to portray it as evidence of the oppressive nature of a fascist state. Just wondering why not such an outcry this time?

bertie 56 · 13-11-2019 4:59pm

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Tear gas, forced removals, physically dragging people across the border.

It's just that when spanish police do it, you try to portray it as evidence of the oppressive nature of a fascist state. Just wondering why not such an outcry this time?

I know that it would have been handy for the Spanish media , and the unionists in general , to have the same heavy repression from the French police than the one we saw the last weeks coming from the Spanish and Catalan police.

That would have been handy for justifying their own violence.

The same way than China is currently using the images of the Spanish and Catalan police repression, to justify their own.

The only problem is just that it didn't happen that way.

As said previously, I haven't found in the French police that day a disproportionate use of violence.

And the vast majority of the Catalans I heard are from the same opinion.
As said a message from the " Firefighters for the Republic association " : " Mossos has still a lot to learn." :rolleyes:

Yet, some incidents happened , as I said previously ,and I don't deny it : the removal from the road of Albert Casals , young paraplegic , for example is shocking . Some pepper sprays could have been avoided too .

But overall , there were no tear gas ( despite what you said, but you surely mixed up with pepper spray ) , no rubber balls and a very few baton kicks only , with an extra 12 hours of demonstrations negotiated calmly.
No violent charges from the police,the evacuation has been done calmly, no long arrests, etc... and above all : nobody hurt .

We are far from the " a por ellos " of the Spanish police there , and the number of their victims ! ( I lost the account of lost eyes , to be honest . Wasn't it 4 the last time ? ...)

By the way, I haven't see any shocking situations neither on the afternoon when the Mossos took the job after the French Police.

It's true that , shortly after that, Tsunami Democràtic called for a new demonstration in the same motorway, but further South . That brought people to leave the place by themselves.

( If you want to check back what I'm saying , there is plenty of videos online .

I don't intent to spam the thread with some, but you can search " La Jonquera " , with the correct date . ( and the correct color of helmet too !!!

)).

EagererBeaver · 13-11-2019 6:15pm

bertie 56 wrote: »

But overall , there were no tear gas ( despite what you said, but you surely mixed up with pepper spray ) , no rubber balls and a very few baton kicks only , with an extra 12 hours of demonstrations negotiated calmly.
No violent charges from the police,the evacuation has been done calmly, no long arrests, etc... and above all : nobody hurt .

No no, I can read just fine as it happens:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50387514

Tear gas.

bertie 56 · 13-11-2019 7:01pm

EagererBeaver wrote: »

No no, I can read just fine as it happens:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50387514

Tear gas.

That is a problem of vocabulary , then.

There is two types of " chemical repellents " used against demonstrators :

- Tear gas , which is shot with a riffle from a long distance, usually doing a parabolic trajectory, sometimes shot horizontally ( very dangerous ), or like a grenade-type that is thrown away.

https://www.google.com/search?q=tear+gas&safe=active&client=ubuntu&hs=4ZK&channel=fs&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_89W23uflAhVAUBUIHRuWA1kQ_AUIESgB&biw=1853&bih=928

- Pepper spray ( what BBC call " tear gas canisters ") , witch is basically a small extinguisher , triggered by hand at short distance .
https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&client=ubuntu&hs=CaK&channel=fs&biw=1853&bih=928&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=xUDMXfmPJIbEgQb25JWoAg&q=pepper+spray&oq=pepper+spray&gs_l=img.12..0l8j0i30l2.88372.91113..93284...0.0..0.102.1006.11j1......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i67.EwGeV047V6s&ved=0ahUKEwi5hty63uflAhUGYsAKHXZyBSUQ4dUDCAY

What I meant from the beginning is :

- the French Police used only the hand- mannered pepper spray ,( far less harmful ) and not the riffle-shot tear gas. ( that create instant panic ) that is extensively used by the Spanish and Catalan Police lately .
All this to say that the method of the pepper spray is a far softer one ( when use with parsimony, of course , like it was the case that day ).

Sorry if there was some confusion in the discussion about that.

( PS : By the way, a bit of experience of demonstrations " In Real Life " shows immediately that the use of the riffle-shot tear gas would have been useless with the wind that was on-site that day ...;) )
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saabsaab · 13-11-2019 8:18pm

For info'

Pepper spray (also known as capsaicin spray) is a lachrymatory agent (a chemical compound that irritates the eyes to cause a burning sensation, pain, and temporary blindness) used in policing, riot control, crowd control, and self-defense, including defense against dogs and bears.[1][2] Its inflammatory effects cause the eyes to close, taking away vision. This temporary blindness allows officers to more easily restrain subjects and permits people in danger to use pepper spray in self-defense for an opportunity to escape. It also causes temporary discomfort and burning of the lungs which causes shortness of breath.

Tear gas, formally known as a lachrymator agent or lachrymator (from the Latin lacrima, meaning "tear"), sometimes colloquially known as mace,[NB 1] is a chemical weapon that causes severe eye and respiratory pain, skin irritation, bleeding, and blindness. In the eye, it stimulates the nerves of the lacrimal gland to produce tears. Common lachrymators include pepper spray (OC gas), PAVA spray (nonivamide), CS gas, CR gas, CN gas (phenacyl chloride), bromoacetone, xylyl bromide, syn-propanethial-S-oxide (from onions), and Mace (a branded mixture), and household vinegar.
Lachrymatory agents are commonly used for riot control. The chemical weapon is used against civilian population during relatively peaceful times; but not against enemy soldiers during war times as using tear gas is prohibited by various international treaties.[NB 2] During World War I, increasingly toxic and deadly lachrymatory agents were used.

bertie 56 · 13-11-2019 11:17pm

ERC is meeting tomorrow with Sanchez team, to try to find an agreement on the investiture of Sanchez.

'ERC says : They will have to move a lot'

'We are going to the meeting to explain to the PSOE that for the moment they have our' no '

'We will explain that we are in a political conflict between Catalonia and the state, and that we are committed to a democratic resolution and a negotiating table where we will put self-determination and amnesty', said ERC .

Here, they are willing to hear what Lastra ( PSOE ) has to say.

However, they emphasize that their initial position is the 'no' in Sánchez, and that if they want ERC to rethink their position 'they will have to move a lot'.

https://www.vilaweb.cat/noticies/psoe-erc-comencaran-negociar-dema-investidura-sanchez/

( original in CAT )

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=fr&sl=ca&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vilaweb.cat%2Fnoticies%2Fpsoe-erc-comencaran-negociar-dema-investidura-sanchez%2F
( automatic translation, in ENG )

Hope Rufián won't go too far from what the ERC voters wants !
ERC is for the moment holding the keys to the investiture of Sanchez . They have to, at least , abstain during the second round . A " no " from them will block everything.

Strange that , when it's about to keep their comfortable places and salaries ( or to get more of the two ), Sanchez and Co are able to pick up the phone and propose a meeting to some independentists !!!

bertie 56 · 19-11-2019 10:26pm

Amnesty International has released a statement this morning , about the trial of the Catalan politicians and civil society leaders , calling for an immediate release of the two Jordis :

" The conviction of Jordi Sànchez and Jordi Cuixart for sedition violates their rights to freedom of expression and peaceful assembly "

" The jail terms handed down to the two civil society leaders and to seven other senior Catalan officials resulted from the vague definition of the crime of sedition in the Spain’s Criminal Code, and an overly broad and dangerous interpretation of this definition by the Supreme Court."

“Jordi Sànchez and Jordi Cuixart must be released immediately and their convictions on the charge of sedition must be quashed ”.

“Whilst the Catalan political leaders might have committed an offence that could have been legitimately prosecuted given their official positions, their conviction for sedition - a crime that is too vaguely defined - is in breach of the principle of legality. "

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/11/spain-conviction-for-sedition-of-jordi-sanchez-and-jordi-cuixart-threatens-rights-to-freedom-of-expression-and-peaceful-assembly/

( in ENG )

Also in the New York Times :

https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2019/11/19/world/europe/19reuters-spain-politics-report.html

According to EITB ( Basque television ) , Amnesty International will soon launch an international campaign for the release of the two Jordis.

saabsaab · 20-11-2019 11:45am

Just read about the Amnesty statement. I can't see how anyone without an axe to grind can say that Spain is being reasonable or handling this situation in any proper fashion.

BluePlanet · 29-11-2019 11:36am

The article says "“Whilst our analysis did not find any factors suggesting that the trial as a whole was unfair, it is clear that the Supreme Court's interpretation of the crime of sedition was overly broad and resulted in criminalizing legitimate acts of protest".

Fair enough to have an opinion but the Spanish Supreme Court is really the arbitrator on Spanish law regarding sedition.

bertie 56 · 30-11-2019 12:59am

BluePlanet wrote: »

Fair enough to have an opinion but the Spanish Supreme Court is really the arbitrator on Spanish law regarding sedition.

Well, the final sentence of the Spanish Court is nothing more and nothing less than another opinion , based on their own vision of the events and their own interpretation of the laws...

But strangely enough, that opinion is at the opposite of human-rights specialists who expressed themselves on the subject ( and as well raising questions in the Council of Europe and the European Court of Justice lately ).

The International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH) and EuroMed Rights have denounced ‘serious irregularities’ in the Catalan independence trial that " didn’t offer the minimum guarantees to be qualified as fair’, with " repeated violations of the rights to defense and to a fair trial.

https://www.spainenglish.com/2019/10/10/serious-irregularities-catalan-trial/

A United Nations (UN) Working Group on Arbitrary Detention has called for the immediate release of three jailed Catalan pro-independence leaders , considering " their detention and imprisonment to be a violation of fundamental rights, especially freedom of speech."

https://www.spainenglish.com/2019/05/29/un-group-demands-release-sanchez-cuixart-junqueras/

The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe in a motion for a resolution, is asking : Should politicians be prosecuted for statements made in the exercise of their mandate?

" The authors of the motion underlying this report were “concerned about the growing number of national, regional and local politicians prosecuted for statements made in the exercise of their mandate, in particular in Spain and Turkey."

http://assembly.coe.int/nw/xml/XRef/Xref-DocDetails-EN.asp?FileID=25279&lang=EN

At the EU Court of Justice : " Spain does not have the right to deny a jailed Catalan MEP his right to sit in the European Parliament, the advocate general of the Court of Justice of EU, Maciej Szpunar, has advised it. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/catalan-nationalist-s-right-to-recognition-as-mep-endorsed-1.4080570

BluePlanet · 01-12-2019 8:53am

bertie 56 wrote: »

I know that it would have been handy for the Spanish media , and the unionists in general , to have the same heavy repression from the French police than the one we saw the last weeks coming from the Spanish and Catalan police..

You are intentionally using that word to be evocative on an irish internet forum.
None of the parties in Spain refer to themselves as unionists.
It's a propaganda word.
Wikipedia even has as article about it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_unionism

"The adoption of the term unionism into the Spanish context and its loaded usage with negative connotation relates to attempts to draw parallels with the Orange Order of the Unionist movement in Ireland."

In reality the major parties of Spain are Nationalists and may end up having to get into bed with ultra Nationalists like Vox.

bertie 56 · 01-12-2019 1:29pm

BluePlanet wrote: »

You are intentionally using that word to be evocative on an irish internet forum.
None of the parties in Spain refer to themselves as unionists.
It's a propaganda word.
Wikipedia even has as article about it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_unionism

"The adoption of the term unionism into the Spanish context and its loaded usage with negative connotation relates to attempts to draw parallels with the Orange Order of the Unionist movement in Ireland."

No. I use the word " unionist " because it is the one that is used in Catalonia and in Catalan language.
A quick search in Google with the key words " unionista/unionisme espanya " will show you that.
I could be wrong, but I don't think that all these press articles in Catalan or Spanish are " intentionally using that word to be evocative " to the Irish people.:rolleyes:

BluePlanet wrote: »

None of the parties in Spain refer to themselves as unionists.

You are right. They call themselves " defender of the unity of the country " .
Exactly like theEnglish Unionists,no ?
That said, there is nothing wrong at being called a Unionist per se .
Some Spanish are even proud of it :
( Original in SPA ) : https://elpais.com/politica/2015/10/20/actualidad/1445365551_910797.html
( automatic translation in ENG ) : https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=fr&sl=es&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Felpais.com%2Fpolitica%2F2015%2F10%2F20%2Factualidad%2F1445365551_910797.html

BluePlanet wrote: »

In reality the major parties of Spain are Nationalists and may end up having to get into bed with ultra Nationalists like Vox.

" May end up ???"

It's done already , and it's just the beginning, I'm afraid ...

See Andalusia last January : https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/09/spanish-conservatives-sign-deal-far-right-vox-party-govern-andalusia/

Or lately in Madrid : https://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/madrid-assembly-passes-motion-calling-for-banning-of-separatist-parties

PS: when using Wikipedia, it's always interesting to read the same article in different languages. See your same link in French or Catalan, for example

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BluePlanet · 01-12-2019 3:28pm

bertie 56 wrote: »

No. I use the word " unionist " because it is the one that is used in Catalonia and in Catalan language.
A quick search in Google with the key words " unionista/unionisme espanya " will show you that.
I could be wrong, but I don't think that all these press articles in Catalan or Spanish are " intentionally using that word to be evocative " to the Irish people.:rolleyes:

That's a straw man.
I didn't claim that Catalans use the word unionist here.
I said that you do, and that you do so to propagandize.

Spaniards generally do not refer to themselves or their political parties as 'unionist'.

An Ciarraioch · 01-12-2019 6:33pm

BluePlanet wrote: »

That's a straw man.
I didn't claim that Catalans use the word unionist here.
I said that you do, and that you do so to propagandize.

Spaniards generally do not refer to themselves or their political parties as 'unionist'.

Actually, they do - this website (the Spanish equivalent of Britain Elects) discusses referendum polling, and uses the very terms "independentistas" and "unionistas":

https://electomania.es/catp30n1/

Also, a cursory selection of news stories when googling the term "unionismo" :

http://www.google.ie/search?tbm=nws&sxsrf=ACYBGNTw85px-PLd9KhznigfCytFHBKzDg%3A1575221710213&q=unionismo&oq=unionismo&aqs=heirloom-srp..0l5

bertie 56 · 01-12-2019 7:14pm

BluePlanet wrote: »

That's a straw man.
I didn't claim that Catalans use the word unionist here.
I said that you do, and that you do so to propagandize.

No need to beat around the bush : it's not propaganda to call a spade a spade.

As previously said and proved, they are called " unionists " all around Catalonia and Spain, I therefore don't see any need to create a sterile polemic around that .

bertie 56 · 19-12-2019 10:58pm

Big slap in the face of the Spanish " justice " this morning , coming from Europe .

EU court: Spain wrong to stop Catalan separatist taking up MEP seat .
Oriol Junqueras should have been released from pre-trial detention, ruling says.

Europe's top court ruled on Thursday that a leading Catalan separatist should have been allowed to leave prison to take up his seat in the European Parliament

"A person who is elected to the European Parliament acquires the status of Member of Parliament as a result of and from the time of the declaration of the election results," the court stated in a press release . "

https://www.politico.eu/article/oriol-junqueras-eu-court-spain-catalonia-mep-decision/

( in ENG )

https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2019-12/cp190161en.pdf
( in ENG )

The President of the European Parliament, David Sassoli, declared shortly after that :

" It is a very important ruling which has a direct impact on the composition of this institution (...) I call upon the competent Spanish authorities to urge to align with the ruling."

https://twitter.com/EP_President/status/1207647230783569920

Another slap in the face arrived later during the day :

The European Parliament lifts former Catalan president Carles Puigdemont and former Catalan minister Toni Comín's ban on entering the European chamber .

President of the European Parliament David Sassoli has lifted the entry ban on the institution he imposed against Carles Puigdemont and Toni Comín tonight, when the European Order against them was reactivated in October, after the Court of Justice. of the European Union has sentenced in favor of Oriol Junqueras . The decision has already been notified to Puigdemont and Comín by email and telephone, which will be accessible to them to prove themselves as MEPs.

https://www.vilaweb.cat/noticies/el-parlament-europeu-aixeca-el-vet-a-puigdemont-i-comin/
( in CAT )
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=fr&sl=ca&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vilaweb.cat%2Fnoticies%2Fel-parlament-europeu-aixeca-el-vet-a-puigdemont-i-comin%2F
( in ENG - automatic translation )

We will hopefully see these three MEP taking their seats soon !

( With a fourth one for Clara Ponsati, currently in exile in Scotland , who is in the " MEP waiting list " , ready to take one of the UK seat once Brexit is done .)
Note that these four MEP has been elected with more than 2 Millions of votes, votes that are not currently represented in the EU Parliament at all...

v638sg7k1a92bx · 27-05-2020 1:08am

Interesting how pro independence advocates are very quiet these days when they are propping a communist government who are stripping ALL citizens of their rights. Where is all the outrage now when PSOE and Podemos are in government as they tick off their communist checklist under the guise of a “state of emergency”.

Bienvenido Venezuela 2

Barna77 · 27-05-2020 10:01am

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Interesting how pro independence advocates are very quiet these days when they are propping a communist government who are stripping ALL citizens of their rights. Where is all the outrage now when PSOE and Podemos are in government as they tick off their communist checklist under the guise of a “state of emergency”.

Bienvenido Venezuela 2

Hola Cayetano

v638sg7k1a92bx · 27-05-2020 12:41pm

Barna77 wrote: »

Hola Cayetano

Hola perroflauta. Have you any opinions of your own today or are you still going with whatever the received opinion is on twitter?

Barna77 · 27-05-2020 12:57pm

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Hola perroflauta. Have you any opinions of your own today or are you still going with whatever the received opinion is on twitter?

I don't have a dog, a flute, twitter.
I can lend you a pot if you want it. I'll clean it properly beforehand.

I heard though about Casado's sickening agenda, bringing up terrorism. What else could we expect from PP. Terrorism is always on their minds...

v638sg7k1a92bx · 27-05-2020 2:26pm

Barna77 wrote: »

I don't have a dog, a flute, twitter.
I can lend you a pot if you want it. I'll clean it properly beforehand.

I heard though about Casado's sickening agenda, bringing up terrorism. What else could we expect from PP. Terrorism is always on their minds...

What part of the agenda do you have a problem with exactly or is it just that you have a problem PP no matter what that agenda my be? You do know that PP are not in government but no doubt you (and others) will try and deflect blame back to them even though they are not in government.

Btw it was actually Iglesias (one of the new several vice-presidents and leader of Podemos) who invoked his own father, a convicted terrorist, on several occasions. Just today, he invited his father to live up to his reputation in a veiled threat to opposition members in the Spanish parliament. They then tried to have comments struck from the minutes. Literally rewriting history and striping peoples rights on a daily basis. But you won't say anything about that because your confirmation bias doesn't allow you to.

Only yesterday, the minister of the interior sacked the chief of the civil guard because he was implicated in an investigation. But yet again we hear nothing from those on the left who cry foul at even the slightest thought of a perceived injustice.

Barna77 · 27-05-2020 2:50pm

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

What part of the agenda do you have a problem with exactly or is it just that you have a problem PP no matter what that agenda my be? You do know that PP are not in government but no doubt you (and others) will try and deflect blame back to them even though they are not in government.

I'm well aware that PP are not in government. But they are already in electoral campaign mode.

People die? it is the government's fault.
Unemployment because of economy meltdown? Government's fault.
If there were a second wave, hopefully not? It's the government's fault for opening up the country.
People were ****ing stupid to travel before lockdown? Government's fault.
The infamous feminist march AND Vox rally? Government's fault for not banning them.

Madrid is a joke. Meaning the regional government (PP).

ancapailldorcha · 27-05-2020 2:55pm

Barna77 wrote: »

Hola Cayetano

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Hola perroflauta. Have you any opinions of your own today or are you still going with whatever the received opinion is on twitter?

Be civil, please.

Barna77 · 27-05-2020 3:04pm

And for the record, I'm no fan of Iglesias.

Attending the cabinet meeting that established the state of alarm, when he was in quarantine, was foolish and reckless. But he's power hungry and he had to be there to be heard.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 27-05-2020 3:04pm

Barna77 wrote: »

I'm well aware that PP are not in government. But they are already in electoral campaign mode.

People die? it is the government's fault.
Unemployment because of economy meltdown? Government's fault.
If there were a second wave, hopefully not? It's the government's fault for opening up the country.
People were ****ing stupid to travel before lockdown? Government's fault.
The infamous feminist march AND Vox rally? Government's fault for not banning them.

Madrid is a joke. Meaning the regional government (PP).

So what have all those things got to do with PP?

Barna77 · 27-05-2020 3:22pm

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

So what have all those things got to do with PP?

I'm trying to say they are pretty much using the pandemic for their own advantage.
Has anyone suggested yet that the virus may have been man made in a Basque lab? :v

But this has nothing to do with Cataluña

v638sg7k1a92bx · 27-05-2020 4:13pm

Barna77 wrote: »

I'm trying to say they are pretty much using the pandemic for their own advantage.
Has anyone suggested yet that the virus may have been man made in a Basque lab? :v

But this has nothing to do with Cataluña

It does because the Catalans are supporting the current minority Government which has been stripping all citizens of their rights by using the state of emergency to push through their shopping list of socialist/communist legislation.

Where are the Catalans independence advocates when for the last 2 years they were up in arms about how their rights were supposedly being taken away because nobody would recognise their illegal referendum?

Now, when their own independence politicians are propping up PSOE and Podemos with their umpteen vice presidents and multiple ministers for X, Y and Z we don't hear a dickybird???

Why aren't the jailed Catalan politicians not being released considering that there is now an ultra left wing government - which the Catlans are keeping there?

When PP was in Government, Catalans were screaming foul that their rights were being trampled - they had Youtube videos for people to come to the rescue, they were calling for EU intervention, the ECJ, amnesty international and anyone else who would listen. Puidgemont is still in Belgium and the others are in prison, so whose fault is it now???

Barna77 · 27-05-2020 4:38pm

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

It does because the Catalans are supporting the current minority Government which has been stripping all citizens of their rights by using the state of emergency to push through their shopping list of socialist/communist legislation.

Oh Jesus Christ! Haven't you heard Torra complaining? Ah wait, he's too busy getting a pay rise to cry foul

I see the people out in the (wealthy) streets of Madrid have been stripped of their right to protest

v638sg7k1a92bx · 27-05-2020 10:37pm

Barna77 wrote: »

Oh Jesus Christ! Haven't you heard Torra complaining? Ah wait, he's too busy getting a pay rise to cry foul

I see the people out in the (wealthy) streets of Madrid have been stripped of their right to protest
(They probably touched kitchenware for the first time in their lives)

Not after they secured a court order because the govt tried to shut it down but you can also ignore that fact.

Wealthy streets? Half the city was out. Are you resentful that some people have more money than you, would you say the same about the "poorer" streets in Madrid?

Barna77 · 29-05-2020 1:44pm

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Wealthy streets? Half the city was out. Are you resentful that some people have more money than you, would you say the same about the "poorer" streets in Madrid?

Of course it's all down to money envy and class struggle :rolleyes:

Catalan independence referendum, 2017

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