Phoenix park

caff · 15-05-2020 12:58pm #1

Would it be feasible at all to have a phoenix park station from the phoenix park tunnel? Would it be too complex to develop a station there?

magicbastarder · 15-05-2020 1:04pm

where along the tunnel? conyngham road is already close to heuston, and it leaves the park under garda HQ, IIRC.
or do you mean a stop *in* the park?

Zebra3 · 15-05-2020 1:49pm

caff wrote: »

Would it be feasible at all to have a phoenix park station from the phoenix park tunnel? Would it be too complex to develop a station there?

Would it be financially viable to build an underground station where nobody lives and that a handful of tourists might use?

I seriously doubt it.

caff · 15-05-2020 3:17pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

where along the tunnel? conyngham road is already close to heuston, and it leaves the park under garda HQ, IIRC.
or do you mean a stop *in* the park?

Close to the zoo I was thinking. Due to responses about the calls to close the park to through traffic.

LeinsterDub · 15-05-2020 3:31pm

caff wrote: »

Close to the zoo I was thinking. Due to responses about the calls to close the park to through traffic.

Why would closing the park to through traffic make any odds? People can still drive to the zoo.

Birdie Num Num · 15-05-2020 3:44pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Would it be financially viable to build an underground station where nobody lives and that a handful of tourists might use?

I seriously doubt it.

It has been suggested in the framework for development of the phoenix park. In terms of people using it I think it would be viable considering that circa 1500 people work within the Park. Dublin Zoo is consistently one of the biggest visitor attractions in the country. There is a mass participant event held almost every weekend in the Phoenix Park, be that a road race, festival, music concert, etc.

I've often thought an underground station close to the Zoo entrance with minimal impact or presence above ground would be awesome. It was also touted as being just outside the walls of the Park. Wouldn't like to see the Park too impacted by developed infrastructure however and much of what was in the framework, concepts was unnecessary and over the top in my opinion, particularly plans for additional parking. Current and immediate economic situation will no doubt decide developments. For now the Park is just great.

CatInABox · 15-05-2020 4:11pm

The recent Phoenix Park Visitor Experience Strategic Review had a section on a possible Dart Station. It's unsurprising that you haven't heard of it, because the OPW are as opaque as a thick brick wall. Their public participation in their review was a sick joke, if you wanted to see anything more than the executive summary, then you had to go into a building and look at a single print out of the review.

They looked at a train station between Chesterfield Avenue and the Garda HQ, presumably to allow easy access to the zoo. It wouldn't be a significantly expensive station, as it would be relatively easy to build as a cut and cover station. No idea what's gone on with that review since, as OPW are, as I said above, opaque.

There's also a station planned between Cabra Rd and Faussagh Avenue, as part of the Dart Expansion.

You can see the black circle where they wanted the station here, from their executive review:

VonLuck · 15-05-2020 4:13pm

A station with the Garda HQ would kind of make sense. There's a car park directly over the train line in their grounds and is a stone's throw away from the zoo.

I'm not sure what the usage would be like though. Beyond zoo goers and the odd sunny day trip to the park, who's going to use that station?

Zebra3 · 15-05-2020 4:34pm

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

There is a mass participant event held almost every weekend in the Phoenix Park, be that a road race, festival, music concert, etc.

Really?

VonLuck · 15-05-2020 4:34pm

Another option could be to extend the Luas line from Heuston up Infirmary Road.

It would be great if they extended it even further along the North Road within the Phoenix Park. It's a road that sees barely any vehicular traffic and would have minimal disruption both during construction and when in use. Would link up all the houses along the Navan Road and even get usage from people getting off at Ashtown train station if they extended it as far as Ashtown Gate.

I'm not sure how well received a tram within the park would be though...

Pete_Cavan · 15-05-2020 5:34pm

Trying to build an underground station either side of a live underground rail line in a relatively small old tunnel is going to be extremely difficult and expensive. The tunnel may not be straight for the length of platforms either. You need to break out the walls either side of the track where the platforms will be which will almost certainly undermine the ceiling/roof part of the tunnel. You are probably rebuilding the whole tunnel for that section which would cause operational problems and probably shut down that route for a long time.

What I would see as more realistic is building a station in the open straight section along side McKee Barracks which would be a fraction of the cost and a lot less disruptive. It could also be used by residents in the Stoneybatter/Black Horse Ave area, redeveloped O'Deveney Gardens and even people going to/from the Grangegorman campus. A more direct route could then be provided from the station through already state owned land to the Park/Zoo. No doubt there would be lots of resistance to that but could be overcome with some political will, the obsticles aren't physical or economic.

Podge_irl · 15-05-2020 5:39pm

VonLuck wrote: »

Another option could be to extend the Luas line from Heuston up Infirmary Road.

It would be great if they extended it even further along the North Road within the Phoenix Park. It's a road that sees barely any vehicular traffic and would have minimal disruption both during construction and when in use. Would link up all the houses along the Navan Road and even get usage from people getting off at Ashtown train station if they extended it as far as Ashtown Gate.

I'm not sure how well received a tram within the park would be though...

Is this supposed to be a spur line or some weird loop? Considering Hueston isn't a terminus I'm not sure how this makes sense.

VonLuck · 15-05-2020 5:48pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Is this supposed to be a spur line or some weird loop? Considering Hueston isn't a terminus I'm not sure how this makes sense.

Spur lines coming off the existing Luas lines at Heuston bridge and Benburb Street. It wouldn't have to loop and I wouldn't see how Heuston not being a terminus would be an issue?

GerardKeating · 15-05-2020 5:58pm

VonLuck wrote: »

Spur lines coming off the existing Luas lines at Heuston bridge and Benburb Street. It wouldn't have to loop and I wouldn't see how Heuston not being a terminus would be an issue?

A Spur/branch of Luas to serve the Zoo, would be approx 1.5KM, and could also serve the New Criminal Courts and Garda HQ, but the "problem" would be a reduced frequency between Hueston and the city centre, to allow trams to serve the zoo.

LXFlyer · 15-05-2020 6:07pm

There is very little likelihood of such an underground station being built for the reasons already outlined, nor is there likely to be one directly between the northern tunnel portal and Blackhorse Avenue either, not least because of space constraints (new stations built on curves are not popular with the Commission for Railway Regulation).

There are likely to be three new stations added to the Phoenix Park tunnel line:

1) Heuston West - this could open onto Conyngham Road
2) Cabra - Located north of Cabra Road where there are to be apartments built adjacent to the railway line
3) Glasnevin Junction

Adding each new station will add 2 minutes to overall journey time. A fourth would just be overkill and make journey times much less competitive. Those three planned stations are fairly evenly spaced out, and I very much doubt another will be added.

LXFlyer · 15-05-2020 6:09pm

VonLuck wrote: »

Spur lines coming off the existing Luas lines at Heuston bridge and Benburb Street. It wouldn't have to loop and I wouldn't see how Heuston not being a terminus would be an issue?

Which trams would you remove south of Heuston to facilitate these additional trams, bearing in mind that existing trams (under normal conditions) are pretty full, and that there is a capacity limit to the number of trams that could operate between Heuston and Connolly?

LeinsterDub · 15-05-2020 6:12pm

VonLuck wrote: »

Another option could be to extend the Luas line from Heuston up Infirmary Road.

It would be great if they extended it even further along the North Road within the Phoenix Park. It's a road that sees barely any vehicular traffic and would have minimal disruption both during construction and when in use. Would link up all the houses along the Navan Road and even get usage from people getting off at Ashtown train station if they extended it as far as Ashtown Gate.

I'm not sure how well received a tram within the park would be though...

A complete non runner. There's no capacity left on the red line let alone cutting the frequency. The cost of this would would be about a quarter of to half of Dart expansion for a fraction of the gains

donvito99 · 15-05-2020 6:14pm

Why not just bring the 37 and possibly another route (the 38s?) into the park via the Zoo and the northern perimeter (which would capture a good deal of Ashtown)?

angel eyes 2012 · 15-05-2020 6:18pm

Am I missing something here. It's a fifteen minute walk from Heuston to the entrance of the Zoo and posters want an expensive transport link to be built for an unknown reason. Just leave the park the way it is, it's perfectly fine.

Birdie Num Num · 15-05-2020 6:47pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Why not just bring the 37 and possibly another route (the 38s?) into the park via the Zoo and the northern perimeter (which would capture a good deal of Ashtown)?

No way. was proposed a few years back and rightly didn't go ahead. Would be a mess bringing buses through the park.

CatInABox · 15-05-2020 6:50pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Trying to build an underground station either side of a live underground rail line in a relatively small old tunnel is going to be extremely difficult and expensive. The tunnel may not be straight for the length of platforms either. You need to break out the walls either side of the track where the platforms will be which will almost certainly undermine the ceiling/roof part of the tunnel. You are probably rebuilding the whole tunnel for that section which would cause operational problems and probably shut down that route for a long time.

What I would see as more realistic is building a station in the open straight section along side McKee Barracks which would be a fraction of the cost and a lot less disruptive. It could also be used by residents in the Stoneybatter/Black Horse Ave area, redeveloped O'Deveney Gardens and even people going to/from the Grangegorman campus. A more direct route could then be provided from the station through already state owned land to the Park/Zoo. No doubt there would be lots of resistance to that but could be overcome with some political will, the obsticles aren't physical or economic.

If they were to build a station in the park, then I can't see them keeping the line open while building it. Perhaps they'd do it as part of the Dart Expansion, I can't see them keeping the line open for that either.

Other than that, your location for a station makes sense to me too. It's about a kilometre to the proposed site at Cabra, that's an acceptable distance for another station in a mostly dense area.

donvito99 · 15-05-2020 6:51pm

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

No way. was proposed a few years back and rightly didn't go ahead. Would be a mess bringing buses through the park.

What's the issue?

magicbastarder · 15-05-2020 6:51pm

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

No way. was proposed a few years back and rightly didn't go ahead. Would be a mess bringing buses through the park.

why would that be more of a mess than allowing cars through the park?

Birdie Num Num · 15-05-2020 6:56pm

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

Am I missing something here. It's a fifteen minute walk from Heuston to the entrance of the Zoo and posters want an expensive transport link to be built for an unknown reason. Just leave the park the way it is, it's perfectly fine.

I'm with you to a degree but the Heuston line only caters for a few. Ashtown station is even closer to the Park. A 5 - 10 minute walk. I love the Park as it is too. Would not like to see more traffic, buses and carparks. I do have this ideal of a station with minimum impact above ground close to the Park or under the Park which links to a bigger network linking the Heuston to Connolly lines.

Birdie Num Num · 15-05-2020 6:59pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

why would that be more of a mess than allowing cars through the park?

The roads are not made for heavy vehicles. Roundabouts would be removed. That's probably the reason why commercials vehicles are banned. You can already see the damage that tour buses do to the surfaces.

donvito99 · 15-05-2020 7:00pm

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

I'm with you to a degree but the Heuston line only caters for a few. Ashtown station is even closer to the Park. A 5 - 10 minute walk. I love the Park as it is too. Would not like to see more traffic, buses and carparks. I do have this ideal of a station with minimum impact above ground close to the Park or under the Park which links to a bigger network linking the Heuston to Connolly lines.

You don't want "more buses" but you're quite happy to dig a monumental hole in the ground, fill it with concrete, build all the associated buildings for plant and access, and then throw some soil back on top of it for, what, some tourists who want to visit the zoo and who are happy to originate their journey at about Tara St and go the long way around?

donvito99 · 15-05-2020 7:01pm

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

The roads are not made for heavy vehicles. Roundabouts would be removed. That's probably the reason why commercials vehicles are banned. You can already see the damage that tour buses do to the surfaces.

Resurfacing Chesterfield Avenue would do far less damage to the park than a 200 metre long, 20 metre wide and 20 metre deep trench.

VonLuck · 15-05-2020 8:03pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Which trams would you remove south of Heuston to facilitate these additional trams, bearing in mind that existing trams (under normal conditions) are pretty full, and that there is a capacity limit to the number of trams that could operate between Heuston and Connolly?

LeinsterDub wrote: »

A complete non runner. There's no capacity left on the red line let alone cutting the frequency. The cost of this would would be about a quarter of to half of Dart expansion for a fraction of the gains

That's probably a fair point. I'm not hugely familiar with the capacity of the Luas as peak hours.

I was looking at the old OSI maps and see that there was a tram that went from O'Connell Street to the top of Infirmary Road along the North Circular. If only it had been retained. Would be financially unviable to construct now.

Birdie Num Num · 15-05-2020 8:09pm

donvito99 wrote: »

You don't want "more buses" but you're quite happy to dig a monumental hole in the ground, fill it with concrete, build all the associated buildings for plant and access, and then throw some soil back on top of it for, what, some tourists who want to visit the zoo and who are happy to originate their journey at about Tara St and go the long way around?

Yes of course, that is exactly what I want. It is so evident from my post. I said as an ideal it would be great to have a convenient station with minimum impact. I don't know if it is even possible build one. ...And as for your post regarding resurfacing, if you know the Park well, you'd realise it is resurfaced almost every second year due to traffic. The ground underneath is not up to heavy traffic. Large parts of the Park are quite peaty.

magicbastarder · 15-05-2020 8:12pm

i'm not in the park nearly as much as i used to be, and i do remember the damage the buses were doing to the surface before the big job a few years back - what sort of damage are they doing now?

the biggest issue with the park is that it lies between dublin 15 and the city centre.
it's possible (betraying my own biases here) that some of the commuter traffic might ease *slightly* if both the cycle route on the quays, and the greenway along the royal canal provide a meaningful alternative to other forms of transport.

angel eyes 2012 · 15-05-2020 8:33pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm not in the park nearly as much as i used to be, and i do remember the damage the buses were doing to the surface before the big job a few years back - what sort of damage are they doing now?

the biggest issue with the park is that it lies between dublin 15 and the city centre.
it's possible (betraying my own biases here) that some of the commuter traffic might ease *slightly* if both the cycle route on the quays, and the greenway along the royal canal provide a meaningful alternative to other forms of transport.

The surface is fine.

The only issue I observe is some visitors to the park feeding and petting the wild deer, which is against OPW guidelines. Encouraging more footfall and tourism will only lead to their natural habitat being at risk. I really don't see the benefits of changing any aspect of the park, it just looks like change for change's sake on the part of OPW instead of targeting investment in other areas of their estate.

Bit of a moot point anyway, I'd say any strategic review concerning the park will not be implemented now due to massive budgetary pressures.

magicbastarder · 15-05-2020 8:36pm

it's not quite a natural habitat though? it's managed parkland that they were introduced to, and the herd is itself managed.

caff · 15-05-2020 8:51pm

Loving the park at the moment without the through traffic. Previously I would regularly see how lines of cars in the evening backed up from the Castlelknock gate.
Nice to see people able to walk around and cycle up the roads now closed to traffic.
Car access still required for visitors to events and to the zoo but that could be mitigated to an extent with improvements to public transport into the park.
Chesterfield avenue itself is 5km long end to end and dublin bus doesn't travel into the park so an underground station around the zoo seemed like it would tick a lot of boxes with regard convenience from a visitors point of view. Most of the sports events and concerts in addition to the like of bloom would start beside it too.

angel eyes 2012 · 15-05-2020 8:54pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's not quite a natural habitat though? it's managed parkland that they were introduced to, and the herd is itself managed.

Well it's as natural as you will find in these parts:

Phoenix-Park-Deer-Frequently-Asked-Questions.pdf

I've grown up beside the park and we knew growing up that you leave the deer alone. This feeding them business only became prominent in the last few years, anyway not a major point in the discussion but it just really annoys me.

cgcsb · 15-05-2020 9:00pm

Would prefer if small electric buses done loops around the inside of the park and down to terminate at Heuston station and close it off to cars entirely.

caff · 15-05-2020 9:04pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Would prefer if small electric buses done loops around the inside of the park and down to terminate at Heuston station and close it off to cars entirely.

Could work electric shuttle from heuston zoo visitor center and new ashtown station?

donvito99 · 15-05-2020 9:04pm

caff wrote: »

Chesterfield avenue itself is 5km long end to end and dublin bus doesn't travel into the park so an underground station around the zoo seemed like it would tick a lot of boxes with regard convenience from a visitors point of view. Most of the sports events and concerts in addition to the like of bloom would start beside it too.

What is with the aversion to buses??

Why spend €100m+ on an underground station when you can get people to the Phoenix Park more quickly and with less of an environmental impact for the cost of sticking a yellow pole outside the Zoo and Garda HQ?

Phil.x · 15-05-2020 9:09pm

Just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be, its totally, totally pointless.

magicbastarder · 15-05-2020 9:20pm

Phil.x wrote: »

Just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be, its totally, totally pointless.

not sure which point you're reacting to there?

Birdie Num Num · 15-05-2020 9:50pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Would prefer if small electric buses done loops around the inside of the park and down to terminate at Heuston station and close it off to cars entirely.

There is a proposal as part of the strategic plan for shuttle buses, driverless I think. There was actually a shuttle bus launched some years back, a hail and stop single deck bus. It was brought in for Park visitors and staff working within the Park. The 1500 or so workers within the Park was brought up as a case for bringing it in. Personally I was never gone on the idea. Not that I ever mattered. It never really took off as there was very little passengers that used it. I'm not sure I ever saw a passenger onboard.

As regards closing to traffic altogether I think there would be massive opposition. In fact I know there would be. I wouldn't be in favour myself but equally wouldn't like to see it opened up to more traffic or heavier vehicles. Additional car parks were also part of that plan and I would hate to see that come to fruition.

Effects · 15-05-2020 10:01pm

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

Just leave the park the way it is, it's perfectly fine.

No, it's not. traffic needs to be reduced and people encouraged to get there by means other than car.

Phil.x · 15-05-2020 10:07pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

not sure which point you're reacting to there?

Sorry, underground station.

Phil.x · 15-05-2020 10:08pm

Effects wrote: »

No, it's not. traffic needs to be reduced and people encouraged to get there by means other than car.

No it's fine as is.

magicbastarder · 15-05-2020 10:19pm

as it is, or as it was before the pox hit?

Phil.x · 15-05-2020 10:51pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

as it is, or as it was before the pox hit?

Sorry again, fine before the pox.
I must remember people cannot read my mind.

cgcsb · 15-05-2020 11:16pm

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

There is a proposal as part of the strategic plan for shuttle buses, driverless I think. There was actually a shuttle bus launched some years back, a hail and stop single deck bus. It was brought in for Park visitors and staff working within the Park. The 1500 or so workers within the Park was brought up as a case for bringing it in. Personally I was never gone on the idea. Not that I ever mattered. It never really took off as there was very little passengers that used it. I'm not sure I ever saw a passenger onboard.

As regards closing to traffic altogether I think there would be massive opposition. In fact I know there would be. I wouldn't be in favour myself but equally wouldn't like to see it opened up to more traffic or heavier vehicles. Additional car parks were also part of that plan and I would hate to see that come to fruition.

If there was effectively a ban on cars and it was either the bus or on foot or bike, it would be very popular all day all year round

LeinsterDub · 15-05-2020 11:55pm

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

No way. was proposed a few years back and rightly didn't go ahead. Would be a mess bringing buses through the park.

Hundreds if not thousands of cars per hours? Sure no problem. A dozen or so buses per hour? That would be a right mess. Hmm makes sense

Birdie Num Num · 16-05-2020 12:55am

cgcsb wrote: »

If there was effectively a ban on cars and it was either the bus or on foot or bike, it would be very popular all day all year round

It is already very popular all day all year round. I’d argue if you currently banned cars through it / to it, it would be noticeably less popular.

caff · 16-05-2020 2:06am

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

It is already very popular all day all year round. I’d argue if you currently banned cars through it / to it, it would be noticeably less popular.

Currently there is a car ban. It is noticeably more popular

Peregrine · 16-05-2020 3:24am

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

It is already very popular all day all year round. I’d argue if you currently banned cars through it / to it, it would be noticeably less popular.

Argue it so.

How exactly would stopping cars from driving through a park on their way to somewhere else make the park noticeably less popular?

Do you think park goers come for the traffic and pollution on Chesterfield Avenue and the rat runs through the back roads or something?

beauf · 16-05-2020 3:54am

caff wrote: »

Currently there is a car ban. It is noticeably more popular

No one is working. They have nothing else to do. Every park is more popular, even the ones with no roads. :rolleyes:

Phoenix park

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