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Public service pay cut?

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24567…126

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    #32
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,369 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    VillageIdiot71 wrote: »
    And the Clerical Officer scale goes up to €40,000 p.a., which is double the Covid payment. Quite good money.

    On nurses, at some stage we've got to get over it. The honest ones frankly admit that they're having the easiest couple of months they've ever had, as the hospitals are empty.

    Low paid care assistants in nursing homes are under pressure, and genuinely in the so called front line. But they're mostly in the private sector. Ditto supermarket workers, who've had much more exposure to the general population than nurses, frequently for nothing more than minimum wage.

    Luckly this has not happened here
    https://www.thejournal.ie/pregnant-nurse-uk-5075351-Apr2020/

    Again there are hundreds of thousands of public servants who are not nurses, again can some explain why they are referenced so much in discussion on public pay?


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    #33
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,369 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Also in what way are low paid health care assistants or retail workers relevant to public service pay?


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    #34
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Luckly this has not happened here
    https://www.thejournal.ie/pregnant-nurse-uk-5075351-Apr2020/

    Again there are hundreds of thousands of public servants who are not nurses, again can some explain why they are referenced so much in discussion on public pay?

    Because pay is generally linked across the public sector, although the nurses did get a deal recently outside that.
    mariaalice wrote: »
    Also in what way are low paid health care assistants or retail workers relevant to public service pay?


    Well the guy who posted that made the explanation, he said they were frontline during the crisis.


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    #35
    Creol1
    Registered Users Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Creol1


    addaword wrote: »
    Of course there will be pay cuts, the country is living way beyond its means and is spending much more than it is taking in. It is unsustainable.

    Is that really you, Charles J.?


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    #36
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,796 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Luckly this has not happened here
    https://www.thejournal.ie/pregnant-nurse-uk-5075351-Apr2020/

    Not sure what the point of that was/relevance to discussion? :confused:

    They should be grateful for their coming paycut & rejoice they aren't dropping like flies of Covid 19 on the job they are (no doubt) lucky to have!


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    #37
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,369 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    FVP3 wrote: »
    Because pay is generally linked across the public sector, although the nurses did get a deal recently outside that.




    Well the guy who posted that made the explanation, he said they were frontline during the crisis.

    That is a point, if nurses get some sentimental based pay rise it will raise the pay of every publics servent, but I doubt if any public servant will getting much of a pay rise soon.


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    #38
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,369 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    fly_agaric wrote: »
    Not sure what the point of that was/relevance to discussion? :confused:

    They should be grateful for their coming paycut & rejoice they aren't dropping like flies of Covid 19 on the job they are (no doubt) lucky to have!

    Absolutely not, its a general discussion on publice services pay nothing to do with nurses pre say.

    My daughter is a nurse.


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    #39
    VillageIdiot71
    Registered Users Posts: 578 ✭✭✭VillageIdiot71


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Again there are hundreds of thousands of public servants who are not nurses, again can some explain why they are referenced so much in discussion on public pay?
    A number of reasons.

    They are one of the largest groups of public servants. There's 40,000 nurses. By comparison, there's only 14,000 Gardai

    Nurses have a very vocal union

    They've a positive public image, so they're a good group to raise if people want to cut your pay. 'What about the TV licence inspectors' wouldn't suspend critical faculties in the same way.


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    #40
    epo addict
    Registered Users Posts: 199 ✭✭epo addict


    no public service worker should have their pay cut

    The country cannot afford asylum seekers and the direct provision free hotels

    We can no longer afford the luxury of funding this there will be no jobs here


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    #41
    radiotrickster
    Registered Users Posts: 859 ✭✭✭radiotrickster


    People focus a lot on nurses being ‘frontline’ but health care assistants and tons of admin staff and porters can be on the front line as much as them.

    Not all admin staff are hidden away in offices either. There are a lot that are helping patients, whether it’s acting effectively as security in the front of the hospital to stop visitors or linking someone to help them walk from A to B. At the end of the day, that’s all frontline work too.

    People have been redeployed, had their jobs changed and are dealing with situations they couldn’t have expected before this.


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    #42
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,796 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Absolutely not, its a general discussion on publice services pay nothing to do with nurses pre say.

    My daughter is a nurse.

    Wasn't clear what you were driving at there.
    Of course nurses, doctors, guards etc get dragged into discussions on public sector pay rate for a lot of reasons.

    Public servants themselves will obviously want to point to people doing extremely important + high profile jobs who interact with the "public" regularly (so are somewhat relatable) when trying to defend their pay rates generally.

    Those who argue for pay cuts will want to airbrush them out of discussion or at least put them in a special category/label them as outliers (the "good"/"worthy" front line who should be paid more, not cut).

    It helps them argue the scythe should be wielded against the rest of the pen pushers and other feather-bedded ne'er do wells on a cushy number which they argue populate the rest of the public sector.

    The public doesn't really know what a lot of these faceless bureaucrats do in any case so surely they should be paid less (are lucky to have their job, would not be missed if laid off)?


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    #43
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,225 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    ted1 wrote: »
    The thing with public service pay is that those on low incomes shouldn’t be cut. While those on higher incomes are paying 52% tax which goes back to the employer.

    Do really lots of times it’s just optics.

    Take a 2,000 pay cut
    State that’s 1040 euro
    Employee gets 960.
    Employee pays 23% VAT on say 600 worth if good
    So another 138 goes back to employer
    Say other 360 goes on services at 13% tax, so another 48 euro.

    Out of 2,000. The state are taking back 1,226 anyway. But the 2,000 is supporting business and jobs. So really the state would achieve nothing by pay cuts


    Those on higher incomes are not just paying 52% in tax, PRSI and USC. With their pension contributions, over 60% of their marginal salary is going back to the taxpayer.


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    #44
    The_Brood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 838 ✭✭✭The_Brood


    mariaalice wrote: »
    The COVID payment has nothing to do with it, its a short term emergency payment. a very odd view to take, the lower end of the basic clerical salary is poor alright.

    It matters like hell - any suggestion to cut the pay of full time workers who already are barely making anything above Covid payments to the unemployed is bat**** insane.


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    #45
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    mariaalice wrote: »
    Will, there be public service pay cuts and cuts to services themselves after COVID 19? interesting discussion on RTE 1 radio about this, on the other hand, the likes of David McWilliams take a different view on how we can pay for this.

    No. Public service pay cuts are ideologically driven and serve little purpose but to achieve upset.

    We've done enough listening to likes of Colm McCarthy.

    Our issues are politicians standing over and preserving unaffordable social welfare programs.

    Not much of thank you to those in the HSE after all this to go and cut their income is it?


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    #46
    Birneybau
    Registered Users Posts: 10,229 ✭✭✭✭Birneybau


    I'm a public servant of 14 years, I do not earn 40k a year and I've already had pay cuts/deferments over the years, due to the crash etc. I'm paraphrasing P. Flynn here but try it, see how far that money gets you.

    Why don't any of these mouthpieces ever go for jobs in the public service if they think we are all on the pig's back?

    And I work hard, working harder from home last few months than I would be in the office, and it's bloody awkward as well.


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    #47
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,369 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Birneybau wrote: »
    I'm a public servant of 14 years, I do not earn 40k a year and I've already had pay cuts/deferments over the years, due to the crash etc. I'm paraphrasing P. Flynn here but try it, see how far that money gets you.

    Why don't any of these mouthpieces ever go for jobs in the public service if they think we are all on the pig's back?

    And I work hard, working harder from home last few months than I would be in the office, and it's bloody awkward as well.

    He was a retired ex-public servant able it from the upper echelons.


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    #48
    saabsaab
    Registered Users Posts: 7,760 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Public service pay agreements are should be obvious across the public service. Cuts affect all including health service not a popular move right now.


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    #49
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,369 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    John Moran, Former Secretary-General Department of Finance.

    The irony of it :pac: former public servent on massive pension recommends pay cut for current public servants.

    What kind of pension would he be on.


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    #50
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,418 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    nigeldaniel wrote: »
    Well if they clamped down on expenses I would not see a need for pay cuts.

    What expenses would these be that you're referring to now?
    Fred Cryton wrote: »
    No no, silly. This is Ireland. In Ireland, we don't "cut" anything. We instead identify the narrow band of hard working middle income private sector higher rate taxpayers (around 20% of the population), and we simply increase their taxes yet again. More welfare and more public sector pay, sure why not? Wouldn't it be cruel not to? Just identify those people, tax them once again, and then pat yourself on the back for reducing "inequality".
    You know there's more to tax than just income tax, right?
    mariaalice wrote: »
    John Moran, Former Secretary-General Department of Finance.

    The irony of it :pac: former public servent on massive pension recommends pay cut for current public servants.

    What kind of pension would he be on.
    So just to be clear, you've no idea what pension he is on, but you've already decided it is massive. Is he on any pension at all, given his date of joining, his age and his fixed term contract?


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    #51
    Birneybau
    Registered Users Posts: 10,229 ✭✭✭✭Birneybau


    mariaalice wrote: »
    He was a retired ex-public servant able it from the upper echelons.

    Yeah, you missed the point. You have said your daughter is a nurse, and fair play to her. The HSE is ridiculously top heavy salary-wise, it's a bloated fit for nothing bureaucratical organisation.

    There should be more, better paid nurses and doctors, and less pencil pushers. Rid the HSE of most of the 'brain' trust and you'll have a more efficient entity, funding and work wise.


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    #52
    dinneenp
    Registered Users Posts: 8,102 ✭✭✭dinneenp


    Not sure 8f already posted but public servants are already paying USC & pension levy.


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    #53
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,227 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    epo addict wrote: »
    no public service worker should have their pay cut

    The country cannot afford asylum seekers and the direct provision free hotels

    We can no longer afford the luxury of funding this there will be no jobs here

    That's such, such small money in the scheme of the 20bn or so deficit we will have this year.

    People always get hung up on the wrong things (TD pay for example, which you could half, and save about 4m- tho one would do it then).


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    #54
    august12
    Registered Users Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭august12


    What expenses would these be that you're referring to now?

    Travel would be top of the list and the further the travel, the more lucrative,


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    #55
    Rikand
    Registered Users Posts: 20,341 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    I'm on the 461 supporting a wife who has lost her job and have 2 kids. The thoughts of a paycut on a salary that is already quite low is terrifying


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    #56
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,369 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    august12 wrote: »
    What expenses would these be that you're referring to now?

    Travel would be top of the list and the further the travel, the more lucrative,
    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    What expenses would these be that you're referring to now?


    You know there's more to tax than just income tax, right?


    So just to be clear, you've no idea what pension he is on, but you've already decided it is massive. Is he on any pension at all, given his date of joining, his age and his fixed term contract?

    My mistake but I do think a retire public servant proposing cutting the pay of current one's is a bit ironic.


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    #57
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,092 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    mariaalice wrote: »
    John Moran, Former Secretary-General Department of Finance.

    The irony of it :pac: former public servent on massive pension recommends pay cut for current public servants.

    What kind of pension would he be on.

    He is not on any CS pension.

    He may have left the CS, and he now works elsewhere.

    I don't know his age, but to me he looks below pension age.

    Also, as he was a Civil Servant for less than four years, he will receive a small pension when he hits pension age.


    Anyways, although I am expecting some policy to reduce PS pay, I also feel that there isn't much appetite for "austerity" or pay cuts.

    So what will actually happen, I'm not sure?

    No pay restoration, autumn 2020?
    Increments frozen?


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    #58
    ethical
    Registered Users Posts: 719 ✭✭✭ethical


    What we must realise this time around its not just Ireland,Spain,Portugal and Greece a lá 2010. now its virtually the whole westernised world.
    Our Government screwed the life out of us last time.They will not this time,eventhough I hear a few of them throwing shapes about austerity.
    Let them just try it and we will be out on the street like the French...maybe with the French.
    One thing to note so far is the awful,terrible picture the present caretaker Gov. is painting is the "unemployment" figures! We went from 4.6% to 28.4% virtually overnight!!! They counted all the people that were told to STOP working and that their jobs would be there for them when this cursed thing is over.Come Monday namy of those people will thankfully be back at work and the end of month "unemployment" figures will be down to probably around 22%.
    the next date ,step 2, will see another tranche of people going back to work meaning the "unemployment" figure will fall (rapidly) further and this will hopefully continue and Paschal will be well pleased and will pontificate on the great job he did in getting "unemployment" down from 28.4% in April to maybe c14% in December which is absolutely fabulous.
    Irish people like working apart from the feckers (4.6%) who never want to work and will be glad to get back to normal.And fair play to Paschal for making the Covid payment available to the many thousands who were told to STOP working . But please do not fool the people by pretending some magic happened.My cat would have had the same effect on "unemployment" figures!
    These billions borrowed will NOT be paid back over 5 yeras or ten years or indeed 50 years so no need to try and screw the ordinary working people.Do it like the Americans,long term borrowing and service the debt.Paschal said our underlying figures were good pre Covid and this enables us to borrow at very ,very low,virtually non-existant rates.All of Europe is in the same boat and woe to the politican who tries to shaftthe people this time.We will NOT stand for it.There will be anarchy on the streets should this happen.


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    #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    This thread can be summed up as take from thee but not from me.

    PS got hammered in the last ressession after the government and bankers messed up. They had their pay cut and extra hours added to them along with a pension levy. I cant see the government going back to the same well again. It wouldn't be tolerated.


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    #60
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,225 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Geuze wrote: »
    He is not on any CS pension.

    He may have left the CS, and he now works elsewhere.

    I don't know his age, but to me he looks below pension age.

    Also, as he was a Civil Servant for less than four years, he will receive a small pension when he hits pension age.


    Anyways, although I am expecting some policy to reduce PS pay, I also feel that there isn't much appetite for "austerity" or pay cuts.

    So what will actually happen, I'm not sure?

    No pay restoration, autumn 2020?
    Increments frozen?


    If he was on 200k for four years, his pension entitlement would be a maximum of 10k a year, that would have to be integrated with his PRSI pension. Under the old rules, if he qualified for the maximum PSRI pension, he would get nothing from the civil service, however, with pro-rata integration this has changed, but I am not familiar with the calculations, so all I can say is that John Moran's pension would be less than 10k, and could be a great deal less than 10k.


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    #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Rikand wrote: »
    I'm on the 461 supporting a wife who has lost her job and have 2 kids. The thoughts of a paycut on a salary that is already quite low is terrifying

    Nobody posting on this thread will be making decisions on paycuts anyway.


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