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Renault 19s - esp. phase 1 and TSE

135

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Just read the whole thread and has me fairly dewy eyed over old Renaults now.

    The first car I can really vividly remember the auld fella having was a 1986 Renault 18. Always remember thinking how big it was but maybe it's just how small it was.

    Never gave it much thought for the last few decades until just now, had a google of it and it's a right quirky looking thing by today's standards!

    Pretty sure the reg was 111 PNI. It was traded in off a 1993 Escort, which felt way more modern at the time.

    HERE YA GO:

    https://www.donedeal.ie/vintagecars-for-sale/renault-18-gtx-2-0e-nct-05-03-2022-perfect-con-/24336228

    Must be the most ogled classic car on Motors at this stage? :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭Toyotafanboi


    Looks very tidy in fairness. Dont know if I'd give €6k for it but that's not to take away from what it is. Ours was a red saloon, bit rough around the edges iirc, definitely had a beaded seat cover on the driver seat.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 815 ✭✭✭Collibosher


    Just read the whole thread and has me fairly dewy eyed over old Renaults now.

    The first car I can really vividly remember the auld fella having was a 1986 Renault 18. ...

    Likewise, my father had a succession of Renaults from the 70's onwards.

    I can remember a 4, 15, 17, 14, 11 and finally a 19.

    I had his old 1.7 1985 11 TXE, was a very comfortable car, wish I'd held on to it.

    Sorry to drag the 19 thread off topic :o


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,447 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Likewise, my father had a succession of Renaults from the 70's onwards.

    I can remember a 4, 15, 17, 14, 11 and finally a 19.

    I had his old 1.7 1985 11 TXE, was a very comfortable car, wish I'd held on to it.

    Sorry to drag the 19 thread off topic :o
    Did you have any luck with the photo of the Baccara. I still haven't found a photo of the wheels online or found them in Dialogys (Renault parts/manual database that the main dealers used to use)

    Thread has already strayed off topic on several occasions. As it seems to be fizzling out, I may introduce some dirty Mk1 Megane content soon ;) The Megane Mk1 was a better car than the 19, it would want to be given that it was an evolution of the 19. However the styling of the Megane was divisive from day 1. I remember seeing a delivery of Meganes to the Renault garage in Templeogue Dublin in early 1996, there were also a few last gasp new 19 saloons with the delivery - white with bodykit and alloys. I recall thinking that the 19 looked considerably better than the car which was replacing it.

    Megane design analysed
    https://driventowrite.com/2018/08/23/1995-renault-megane-review/


  • Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I hope it's ok to post this but it seems the place for it ...........
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113067319&postcount=244


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,477 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    Did you have any luck with the photo of the Baccara. I still haven't found a photo of the wheels online or found them in Dialogys (Renault parts/manual database that the main dealers used to use)

    Thread has already strayed off topic on several occasions. As it seems to be fizzling out, I may introduce some dirty Mk1 Megane content soon ;) The Megane Mk1 was a better car than the 19, it would want to be given that it was an evolution of the 19. However the styling of the Megane was divisive from day 1. I remember seeing a delivery of Meganes to the Renault garage in Templeogue Dublin in early 1996, there were also a few last gasp new 19 saloons with the delivery - white with bodykit and alloys. I recall thinking that the 19 looked considerably better than the car which was replacing it.

    Megane design analysed
    https://driventowrite.com/2018/08/23/1995-renault-megane-review/

    What’s your thoughts on the analysis of the design?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,447 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    What’s your thoughts on the analysis of the design?
    I don't really have any thoughts as I don't speak "designer". Perhaps from a designer POV the Megane Mk1 is interesting and better than the 19 but the average person might think differently.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    Did you have any luck with the photo of the Baccara. I still haven't found a photo of the wheels online or found them in Dialogys (Renault parts/manual database that the main dealers used to use)

    Thread has already strayed off topic on several occasions. As it seems to be fizzling out, I may introduce some dirty Mk1 Megane content soon ;) The Megane Mk1 was a better car than the 19, it would want to be given that it was an evolution of the 19. However the styling of the Megane was divisive from day 1. I remember seeing a delivery of Meganes to the Renault garage in Templeogue Dublin in early 1996, there were also a few last gasp new 19 saloons with the delivery - white with bodykit and alloys. I recall thinking that the 19 looked considerably better than the car which was replacing it.

    Megane design analysed
    https://driventowrite.com/2018/08/23/1995-renault-megane-review/

    First Megane carried over most of the drive train from the 19 with some of the issues sorted, back axle etc.. the interior was better soundproofed and the seats firmer, Megane Coupe was a pretty little thing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    I don't really have any thoughts as I don't speak "designer". Perhaps from a designer POV the Megane Mk1 is interesting and better than the 19 but the average person might think differently.

    19 took a lot of design cues from the As tra/Kadett E, 85-92, the Megane softened or blunted some of the 19 s edges ,maybe some bits borrowed from the awful Safrane. Saloon 19 still a much prettier car then megane saloon.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,447 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    First Megane carried over most of the drive train from the 19 with some of the issues sorted, back axle etc.. the interior was better soundproofed and the seats firmer, Megane Coupe was a pretty little thing.
    Megane was considerably safer too - although the 19 was still near the top of its class despite the buckling evident in the below screenshot. Going back to something I asked earlier, I wonder if the roof arch added to the phase 2 would have made any difference.

    R19 phase 1 55 km/h offset test into solid barrier.
    510666.jpg

    Megane 1 55 km/h offset test into solid barrier
    510665.jpg


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,477 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    I don't really have any thoughts as I don't speak "designer". Perhaps from a designer POV the Megane Mk1 is interesting and better than the 19 but the average person might think differently.

    Thanks for posting it, but I really thought it was a load of nonsense, the answer to that is I don’t know my ar5e from my elbow when it comes to car design. Talking about organic shapes as if throwing in a few curves was rocket science.

    The Megane Estate was a dogs dinner to my eyes, was was the Classic, only the Scenic and the Coupe were in any way well proportioned*


    *imo


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 815 ✭✭✭Collibosher


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    Did you have any luck with the photo of the Baccara. I still haven't found a photo of the wheels online or found them in Dialogys (Renault parts/manual database that the main dealers used to use)

    I'll have a good look at the weekend and get into photo boxes in attic.

    Surely they weren't specific to Irish market ?

    I seem to remember them being something similar to these :-

    hqdefault.jpg


  • Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,447 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Augeo wrote: »
    Those are the 14 inch Zenith alloys that were also use on the Phase 1 TXE. There were a couple of other designs that were used on Baccaras in various markets - but the ones posted by Collibosher above are close to those that were standard on the Irish Baccaras in 1995 at least.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,447 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    I was watching some old footage of the British Touring Car Championship and thought of this thread as the Renault 19 16v competed in 1993. A bad racing car - but one that still managed to win two races in wet conditions. I've posted a typical screenshot of the 19 that year, 130 mph at Thruxton, up on 2 wheels, drifting and on the verge of flying off the track.

    Funny story about it from Tim Harvey, note the comments on cheese and wine :)
    https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/july-1998/57/worst-car-i-ever-drove-french-farce

    I find myself looking back with lot of nostalgia to this era of racing and it could explain why I seem to have a fetish for Mondeos, Cavaliers, Primeras, Alfa 155s and anything else that competed in this golden era.

    511179.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    I was watching some old footage of the British Touring Car Championship and thought of this thread as the Renault 19 16v competed in 1993. A bad racing car - but one that still managed to win two races in wet conditions. I've posted a typical screenshot of the 19 that year, 130 mph at Thruxton, up on 2 wheels, drifting and on the verge of flying off the track.

    Funny story about it from Tim Harvey, note the comments on cheese and wine :)
    https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/july-1998/57/worst-car-i-ever-drove-french-farce

    I find myself looking back with lot of nostalgia to this era of racing and it could explain why I seem to have a fetish for Mondeos, Cavaliers, Primeras, Alfa 155s and anything else that competed in this golden era.

    511179.jpg

    It was the TOCA Touring Car game era after that with the Laguna I where I started to get interested :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,447 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    The TOCA game was great - I still have it must fire up the old Windows 98 PC and give it a go.

    The 1993-1998 period was IMO the golden era of BTCC super tourers, the number of entires was a bit light in the years before and after that. Although 1992 did have some classic moments

    THE MAN'S AN ANIMAL


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,472 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    Lol. Alain Menu and Jason Plato in the Lagunas were very competative in TOCA. The Primera and Accord could live with them once you learned your tracks and stayed off the green stuff. The A4 looked gorgeous and the Volvo was a right old brick. The Mondeo and Vectra were really crap at the back.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,447 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Just going back to R19s and in case anyone is interested in safety, I collated some results from the early 90s ADAC offset crash testing. This was similar to but a bit less stringent than the Auto Motor und Sport tests that were done in the 1990s. The picture of the red 19 and white Megane Mk1 that I posted in an earlier post are from the AMS testing.

    Below are the results and some screenshots from the ADAC testing. The R19 did well and considerably better than the similar design age Fiat Tipo and Peugeot 405. In this test, the 19 had problem with slippage of the rear seat base which caused a dummy to slip under its seatbelt, if the results for the rear seat are disregarded the 19 was the second best car after the Mercedes 190 - with the caveat that a heavier D segment car is going to be safer than a ligher C segment car even if both have the same rating.

    511554.jpg
    34789574kd.jpg
    Screenshot_2018_08_03_11_41_30.png
    Screenshot_2018_08_03_11_41_20.png
    Screenshot_2018_08_03_11_41_06.png
    Screenshot_2018_08_03_11_40_36.png


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,617 ✭✭✭ba_barabus


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    Anyone here own a 19 or have a fetish for them.
    I bought that brochure! I've a very big collection of R19 brochures etc which is helping me to put mine as close to the spec I'd like as possible. It helped me to pickup what was a Renault Boutique accessory car phone!
    colm_mcm wrote: »
    ba_barabus has just restored his, it’s a ph2 though.
    It's not fully finished but it's well on it's way. Its had a ceramic coating applied this week. I'll be picking it up tomorrow. I've the pictures here but I'm waiting for Taff to post them to his Facebook page first.

    Currently, I've a few jobs to tackle which will be done over the next couple of weeks. Front brake calipers, discs and pads will all be changed, along with powersteering and fan belt. Also brake fluid and P/S fluid while I'm at it and finally I'll need to clean up the engine bay.

    It's very clean underneath which is good.

    Last thing I need to locate is a proper radio for it as some buttons are missing on mine. Window trims are hopefully coming from Spain once their lockdown is lifted.....they're like hens teeth.

    I absolutely love it. I had a phase 1 convertible last year which I sold, sorry I did now. And I'm already on the look out for any 19 as my next project. I love them!

    I'll post more pictures as it is now when I see them online.

    And great to see all the 19 love, I assumed a 12 months ago when I started that everyone would think I was a moron for going to the lengths and expense I have.........well I am but at least the car is liked!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,477 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    ba_barabus wrote: »
    I bought that brochure! I've a very big collection of R19 brochures etc which is helping me to put mine as close to the spec I'd like as possible. It helped me to pickup what was a Renault Boutique accessory car phone!


    It's not fully finished but it's well on it's way. Its had a ceramic coating applied this week. I'll be picking it up tomorrow. I've the pictures here but I'm waiting for Taff to post them to his Facebook page first.

    Currently, I've a few jobs to tackle which will be done over the next couple of weeks. Front brake calipers, discs and pads will all be changed, along with powersteering and fan belt. Also brake fluid and P/S fluid while I'm at it and finally I'll need to clean up the engine bay.

    It's very clean underneath which is good.

    Last thing I need to locate is a proper radio for it as some buttons are missing on mine. Window trims are hopefully coming from Spain once their lockdown is lifted.....they're like hens teeth.

    I absolutely love it. I had a phase 1 convertible last year which I sold, sorry I did now. And I'm already on the look out for any 19 as my next project. I love them!

    I'll post more pictures as it is now when I see them online.

    And great to see all the 19 love, I assumed a 12 months ago when I started that everyone would think I was a moron for going to the lengths and expense I have.........well I am but at least the car is liked!

    We just like Ph1.


    Sorry :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,617 ✭✭✭ba_barabus


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    We just like Ph1.


    Sorry :D

    I never back the winning horse. :p


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,447 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Nice one ba_barabus! IMO the phase 2 is more colour and wheel sensitive than the phase 1, I must admit that I'm not mad about the Turbine trims on the RSI and would prefer a set of 14 inch Zeniths. I think the below pic is of the 14 inchers. Back in the day I mainly saw these on phase 2 turbodiesels although the ones I saw might have been 13 inchers like those on the TSE.
    512829.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,617 ✭✭✭ba_barabus


    Funny I like the turbine trims but a set of Zenith would be great. Can't find them sadly. I'm here unpacking a load of NOS parts I bought from a garage in the UK. Mainly just service items and a few boutique bits. Nothing exciting sadly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,477 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    That looks like new, fair play!

    Renault and PSA really knew how to make nice tail lights in the 90s, I don’t think anyone used black and red rear lights as often as the French.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,617 ✭✭✭ba_barabus


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    That looks like new, fair play!

    Renault and PSA really knew how to make nice tail lights in the 90s, I don’t think anyone used black and red rear lights as often as the French.

    French cars of the 80s and 90s in general always looked handsome. They really went off the boil after 2000. Things are looking up however, Peugeot are especially on form right now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭Oops!


    ba_barabus wrote: »
    French cars of the 80s and 90s in general always looked handsome. They really went off the boil after 2000. Things are looking up however, Peugeot are especially on form right now.

    Have to agree about Peugeot... A new 208 caught my eye in the local Aldi car park the other day, first one i've seen in the flesh.... Nice.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,617 ✭✭✭ba_barabus


    Oops! wrote: »
    Have to agree about Peugeot... A new 208 caught my eye in the local Aldi car park the other day, first one i've seen in the flesh.... Nice.

    I'd genuinely consider a 208E in yellow bloody handsome looking.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    Nice one ba_barabus! IMO the phase 2 is more colour and wheel sensitive than the phase 1, I must admit that I'm not mad about the Turbine trims on the RSI and would prefer a set of 14 inch Zeniths. I think the below pic is of the 14 inchers. Back in the day I mainly saw these on phase 2 turbodiesels although the ones I saw might have been 13 inchers like those on the TSE.
    512829.jpg

    Alloys were nearly always 14's lower profile tyres so higher rim


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,042 ✭✭✭kaizersoze


    ba_barabus wrote: »
    Funny I like the turbine trims but a set of Zenith would be great. Can't find them sadly. I'm here unpacking a load of NOS parts I bought from a garage in the UK. Mainly just service items and a few boutique bits. Nothing exciting sadly.

    Wow...just WOW


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,447 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    The Baccara wheel question may have been answered thanks to an ad on donedeal. My memory must be going, i'm familar with those wheels as they are on higher spec Megane Mk1 phase 2s but I didn't make the connection.

    The Baccara on donedeal is fairly rough looking and it says it hasn't been NCT'd since 2007 but check out those seats!

    Ad
    https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/renault-19-baccara-1-4/24928077

    Pics
    515199.jpeg

    515200.jpeg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,159 ✭✭✭bigroad


    Nice spec seats for a small saloon car they are like armchairs.was the Baccarat the top spec possible with the 1.7 motor.
    Renault were a great company for giving a load of extras in the run out models without pumping up the price.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,447 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    bigroad wrote: »
    Nice spec seats for a small saloon car they are like armchairs.was the Baccarat the top spec possible with the 1.7 motor.
    Renault were a great company for giving a load of extras in the run out models without pumping up the price.
    The Baccara in the Irish market was a 1.4, well there might have been Baccara diesels too but I don't think so. Anyway 1.4s and diesels were 99% of 19s on the roads here. I only ever saw a small handful of 16v cars and don't know if they were officially sold here or imported privately.

    I never saw a 1.7/1.8 8 valve here but a poster earlier in the thread worked for a Renault dealer and said they sold a very small number of GTXs (phase 1 1.7) before they were dropped.

    As can be seen from the 1989 pricelist I posted earlier it looks like we didn't get V6 versions of the Renault 25 and the overall Renault range here was pretty small.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,159 ✭✭✭bigroad


    All I can remember was the Renault 25 gts.maybe the gtx but no diesels .although I did hear a few 25s with conversions ,probably the 2.1 from the 18 or the later 21.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    bigroad wrote: »
    All I can remember was the Renault 25 gts.maybe the gtx but no diesels .although I did hear a few 25s with conversions ,probably the 2.1 from the 18 or the later 21.

    25 s sold here were all 2.0 patrols, saw a French turbodiesel one once, used the 2.1 Trafic/18 engine, any conversions would have been from the 18GTD , the longitudely mounted 21s were scarce on the ground and 21diesels from the 1990 facelift up were 1.9 same as the 19.
    25 was actually a pretty good car, some bushing issues but nice old thing to drive and well specced ,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭Oops!


    Know a fella that had a 25 that was run on LPG one time, some bus.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,447 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    The 25 was great - loved by most owners despite some build quality problems in the early days and auto gearboxes which had a bad rep.

    A very economical car too for its size. A lot of them had the 103 bhp carb engine, steel wheels, rear drum brakes and yet there was more than a hint of "exotic" about the car. Not surprising I suppose given styling by Robert Opron and Marcello Gandini. The 19 and 21 were more understated.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    The 25 was great - loved by most owners despite some build quality problems in the early days and auto gearboxes which had a bad rep.

    A very economical car too for its size. A lot of them had the 103 bhp carb engine, steel wheels, rear drum brakes and yet there was more than a hint of "exotic" about the car. Not surprising I suppose given styling by Robert Opron and Marcello Gandini. The 19 and 21 were more understated.

    21 was terrible car, bad coolant caused huge issues, seat frames fell apart, heater matrix leaked into the cabin, door locks failed, no power steering in most phase 1 models, front suspension shared most common parts with R5


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,159 ✭✭✭bigroad


    They were nice and usually had the 20 TS badge but for me the 30 tx had the more aggressive look with the twin headlights and the v6.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    The Baccara on donedeal is fairly rough looking and it says it hasn't been NCT'd since 2007 but check out those seats!

    What a throwback. Those seats were so comfy!

    For the car you linked, are those the standard wheels for them?

    I thought they came with the wheels the one in this advert has as standard, although it was 20 odd years ago since I last went in one regularly, so my mind could well be playing tricks on me!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,159 ✭✭✭bigroad


    He says in the advert that those wheels are from a 16v .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,447 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    What a throwback. Those seats were so comfy!

    For the car you linked, are those the standard wheels for them?
    My memory of the Baccara wheels was that they were "fancier" and had more spokes than the ones on that green saloon but that is probably just my memory playing up.

    As bigroad said, the wheels on the car you linked to are phase 2 16v wheels and were not standard or optional on non 16v cars.

    The PCD and offset on the 19 is the same as that on the Mk1 and Mk2 Clios and the Mk1 Megane (maybe excepting the Scenic) so lots of wheels fit. Some of the wider ones might foul the arch liners on full lock.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,447 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    Oh yeah I see that Ba_barabus is not content with just one 19 and is looking for another to restore. That Baccara needs saving. Even if it can't be, it would yield lots of parts including possibly those seats and interior. Unfortunately I have not got the skills for restoration or the space for another car. Well I do have space but it would be on grass - and once I start with that I'll be on a slippery slope to becoming one of "those" lads with 20 Morris Marinas rotting into the ground in the back garden.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 815 ✭✭✭Collibosher


    bigroad wrote: »
    He says in the advert that those wheels are from a 16v .


    Those wheels were fitted to my early '95 Baccara saloon.

    I remember seeing them on quite a few at the time, assumed they came as standard, but perhaps they were an optional extra.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Those wheels were fitted to my early '95 Baccara saloon.

    I remember seeing them on quite a few at the time, assumed they came as standard, but perhaps they were an optional extra.

    95 was the run out year, think they came with alloys ,disc brakes and leather, dark green was the common colour , 25 years so slightly hazy


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    curvedxl wrote: »

    The wee 5 petrol van sold quite well, sort of alternative to the mk3 Fiesta which was a big seller at the time, 47 bhp!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,447 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    curvedxl wrote: »
    Thanks for posting that - confirms that the Supervan was a non turbo diesel, I don't see a 0-60 time in there but from other sources it is 15.7 seconds. A figure that was slow even back in the day yet many people including myself remember them as being one of the fastest vehicles on the road :) I had a couple of scary experiences as passenger in them, the fact that it is an old school noisy diesel probably made it seem faster again.

    Are there any left? I haven't seen a 19 van on donedeal for years. I don't think they were sold in the UK so importing not an option.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Haven't seen one around for years. Probably all driven into the ground like most vans.


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