The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

LuasSimon · 11-05-2020 03:00PM

KyussB wrote: »

Nearly every leading economist is against a UBI.

€350 a week UBI costs €90 billion a year. We can't even fund €350 a week coronavirus payments, they are already about to be cut.

We urgntly need to mass produce PPE - and the entire state can make a profit from that, by paying the unemployed a living wage to do it.

Pavee Point are in favor of it , they seem to have a lot of pull getting their way!

salmocab · 11-05-2020 03:02PM

KyussB wrote: »

That's nonsense, it can already be done right now by hand without any industrial machinery - and we can ramp up a proper industrial mass manufacturing line within months.

Basic PPE is not rocket science, and it's in incredibly high demand. You don't need the ultimate most high tech PPE for general public use - only for hospitals.

It’s not nonsense because you say so, things like cutting and sewing take skills that are just not present in any numbers in our country. It’s pie in the sky to think we could ramp this up in a matter of months.

KyussB · 11-05-2020 03:02PM

RandomViewer wrote: »

Materials cost money, forced labour would produce poor quality stuff that couldn't be used, all you'd be doing is making a lot of crap that nobody wants and lots of pissed of people who paid lots of PRSI being pushed into forced Labour. Only good thing is that FG /FF would never darken anyone's door again

If people don't want the job they don't have to take it, they scan go to standard unemployment payments - nobody would be forcing anyone to do a thing.

We've just got the standard anti-government-everything crowd opposing it, by throwing up random obstacles lacking any credibility.

Basic materials, for basic PPE, cost next to nothing - you can improvise masks out of paper tissues on a DIY basis even - you don't need N95 for everyone.

KyussB · 11-05-2020 03:05PM

salmocab wrote: »

It’s not nonsense because you say so, things like cutting and sewing take skills that are just not present in any numbers in our country. It’s pie in the sky to think we could ramp this up in a matter of months.

Dear oh dear - people may have to learn how to use scissors and a sewing machine - it's so hard and insurmountable, lets just give up already...

salmocab · 11-05-2020 03:10PM

KyussB wrote: »

Dear oh dear - people may have to learn how to use scissors and a sewing machine - it's so hard and insurmountable, lets just give up already...

I didn’t say it was insurmountable so as you said to someone else only a few posts ago stop making up nonsense that wasn’t said.

KyussB · 11-05-2020 03:13PM

Just stop farcically blowing the challenges up out of proportion. It's piss easy to get PPE mass manfuacturing set up, at various skilled levels (even at an unskilled level), for all of the unemployed - it doesn't cost much - and it's massively profitable right now as well, it would pay for itself.

Instead of blowing a hole in the budget with coronavirus payments in return for nothing, and with the economy shut down - we can be mass rolling out PPE to everybody, and providing a guaranteed job to anyone who wants to make PPE, at a living wage - and it's so damn profitable, it pays for itself, and gets our economy running again way faster.

But - oh no... - de guberment would be employing people temporarily, we can't have that...lets just blow all the money on coronavirus payments, in return for nothing useful being done.

Tea drinker · 11-05-2020 03:49PM

boring accountant wrote: »

I don’t know anyone who thinks the bank bailouts are okay, on this thread or anywhere else for that matter.

Yeah again it just transferred debts on to the workers here.

Bit of welcome news:

New figures show that 589,000 people today will receive their Covid-19 weekly welfare payment of €350, at a cost of €206m.

But this is a fall of 9,000 - the first decrease in numbers seeking the emergency welfare since the scheme began in March.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/numbers-claiming-covid-19-welfare-payments-falls-for-first-time-998796.html

Geuze · 11-05-2020 04:11PM

KyussB wrote: »

That's nonsense, it can already be done right now by hand without any industrial machinery - and we can ramp up a proper industrial mass manufacturing line within months.

Basic PPE is not rocket science, and it's in incredibly high demand. You don't need the ultimate most high tech PPE for general public use - only for hospitals.

I have been wondering why more firms aren't getting into PPE prodcution?

https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2020/04/ppe-shortages-and-the-failure-to-increase-prices.html

https://www.flexport.com/blog/why-there-arent-enough-masks-and-how-to-get-more/

Fred Cryton · 11-05-2020 04:20PM

seamus wrote: »

I have no idea what other countries did or didn't do.

If you're asking why €350 was picked, it's unlikely to be a coincidence that it's close to the threshold where you start to incur income tax. I'm sure there's a calculation somewhere that justifies both.

That assumes that every country's civil service works in exactly the same way and what works in another country will work here.

I would rather it had been done whatever way necessary than sitting and watching and waiting to see what everyone else did. It's not a huge cost in the long-term.

Totally evaded my question and pretended Ireland lives in a bubble. You'd be quick to compare us to other countries if we did something you didn't like!

Geuze · 11-05-2020 04:24PM

KyussB wrote: »

Just stop farcically blowing the challenges up out of proportion. It's piss easy to get PPE mass manfuacturing set up, at various skilled levels (even at an unskilled level), for all of the unemployed - it doesn't cost much - and it's massively profitable right now as well, it would pay for itself.

Instead of blowing a hole in the budget with coronavirus payments in return for nothing, and with the economy shut down - we can be mass rolling out PPE to everybody, and providing a guaranteed job to anyone who wants to make PPE, at a living wage - and it's so damn profitable, it pays for itself, and gets our economy running again way faster.

But - oh no... - de guberment would be employing people temporarily, we can't have that...lets just blow all the money on coronavirus payments, in return for nothing useful being done.

If it so easy, and profitable, are many firms switching into producing PPE?

I hope so.

If that is happening, great.

I read that the HSE plans to spend 1,000 million on PPE this year, a shocking figure, and has agreed a deal with a South Korean firm.

AFAIK, South Korea is not a low-cost location.

Steer55 · 11-05-2020 04:37PM

Geuze wrote: »

If it so easy, and profitable, are many firms switching into producing PPE?

I hope so.

If that is happening, great.

I read that the HSE plans to spend 1,000 million on PPE this year, a shocking figure, and has agreed a deal with a South Korean firm.

AFAIK, South Korea is not a low-cost location.

Maybe they looking for quality products not the cheap Chinese stuff.

FVP3 · 11-05-2020 04:56PM

Steer55 wrote: »

Maybe they looking for quality products not the cheap Chinese stuff.

The chinese have formidable manufacturing processes.

Xertz · 11-05-2020 05:20PM

KyussB wrote: »

We're not going to the fucking moon - we need to produce masks/PPE.

The unemployed, not the entire economy - stop making up nonsense that wasn't said.

Out of what and where?

We don’t have the machinery, the skills pool, the raw materials etc.

PPE is mass produced largely from paper and plastic and it’s done on an absolutely huge scale. The stuff that hasn’t come from the usual supply chains has been the stuff that’s been seriously problematic.

Massive volume production isn’t straight forward.

Are you suggesting the state should build plants and production should be by command economy? That was a complete disaster in the past - you typically end up with some substandard product.

Also the demand for PPE, hopefully should this be tackled be drugs and a vaccine, will be something that will peak and fizzle.

I could see somewhere like Finland doing this due to huge scale paper mills. Same with Canada. We don’t have those types of resources.

kippy · 11-05-2020 06:09PM

Fred Cryton wrote: »

This point keeps getting made- all they needed was their previous payslip. Would have been a week turnaround max.

Surely better to have a very slight delay in payments, rather than cost the State hundreds of millions if not billions extra.

You reckon the saving would be in the billions?

How would you have apportioned the payment?
I just want to put some sense on your savings of billions....

KyussB · 11-05-2020 06:56PM

Xertz wrote: »

Out of what and where?

We don’t have the machinery, the skills pool, the raw materials etc.

PPE is mass produced largely from paper and plastic and it’s done on an absolutely huge scale. The stuff that hasn’t come from the usual supply chains has been the stuff that’s been seriously problematic.

Massive volume production isn’t straight forward.

Are you suggesting the state should build plants and production should be by command economy? That was a complete disaster in the past - you typically end up with some substandard product.

Also the demand for PPE, hopefully should this be tackled be drugs and a vaccine, will be something that will peak and fizzle.

I could see somewhere like Finland doing this due to huge scale paper mills. Same with Canada. We don’t have those types of resources.

It's weird the kind of learned helplessness people have, as soon as it involves government doing anything - suddenly everything becomes far too complicated to achieve, and people can only conceive of it being done with a command economy - as if there is no idle labour, and available resources ready to be used - that suddenly, putting together simple masks or other PPE (that you can do at home on a DIY basis ffs...), becomes a gargantuan task that involves taking control of all business and labour in the whole economy, in order to achieve...

Such slippery slope nonsense - which is obviously ideologically motivated, as being anti-government-everything.

The basic materials for basic PPE equiment, are available in abundance - and we have plenty of manufacturing ability for producing it, as well as more than enough ability to buy and develop the manufacturing equipment needed to produce the higher end PPE - and a gigantic number of unemployed people, many of them skilled in the relevant areas, required to make it all happen.

Instead of blowing €350 quid a week for coronavirus payments - which is worth 28 hours of work at the living wage - we should be employing these people to manufacture, and expand the manufacturing ability, for producing enormous amounts of PPE.

It's socially beneficial, it's economically beneficial, it can be done rapidly with little supply or skill constraints, and right now it's so high in demand that it pays for itself...it's a win-win situation all around, and the only possible objections to it is ideological, from people who oppose government providing jobs for the unemployed.

salmocab · 11-05-2020 07:07PM

KyussB wrote: »

It's weird the kind of learned helplessness people have, as soon as it involves government doing anything - suddenly everything becomes far too complicated to achieve, and people can only conceive of it being done with a command economy - as if there is no idle labour, and available resources ready to be used - that suddenly, putting together simple masks or other PPE (that you can do at home on a DIY basis ffs...), becomes a gargantuan task that involves taking control of all business and labour in the whole economy, in order to achieve...

Such slippery slope nonsense - which is obviously ideologically motivated, as being anti-government-everything.

The basic materials for basic PPE equiment, are available in abundance - and we have plenty of manufacturing ability for producing it, as well as more than enough ability to buy and develop the manufacturing equipment needed to produce the higher end PPE - and a gigantic number of unemployed people, many of them skilled in the relevant areas, required to make it all happen.

Instead of blowing €350 quid a week for coronavirus payments - which is worth 28 hours of work at the living wage - we should be employing these people to manufacture, and expand the manufacturing ability, for producing enormous amounts of PPE.

It's socially beneficial, it's economically beneficial, it can be done rapidly with little supply or skill constraints, and right now it's so high in demand that it pays for itself...it's a win-win situation all around, and the only possible objections to it is ideological, from people who oppose government providing jobs for the unemployed.

I may have missed it but has anyone said they oppose this because of the government providing jobs?

Steer55 · 11-05-2020 08:35PM

KyussB wrote: »

That's nonsense, it can already be done right now by hand without any industrial machinery /QUOTE]

Get yourself a needle and thread, find a rocking chair and stitch away to your heart's content :-)

Steer55 · 11-05-2020 08:58PM

KyussB wrote: »

you don't need N95 for everyone.

Yes we do need the N95's for everyone, to.suggest otherwise is ludicrous. They the only mask that keep the virus out. Using the cheaper alternatives made out of tissue paper and cloth would be the same as simply just wrapping a scarf around our faces.

KyussB · 11-05-2020 09:31PM

salmocab wrote: »

I may have missed it but has anyone said they oppose this because of the government providing jobs?

Your own post didn't give that impression, no - it's when people start posting as if the government employing people temporarily, leads inexorably to a Communist police state.

KyussB · 11-05-2020 09:43PM

Steer55 wrote: »

Yes we do need the N95's for everyone, to.suggest otherwise is ludicrous. They the only mask that keep the virus out. Using the cheaper alternatives made out of tissue paper and cloth would be the same as simply just wrapping a scarf around our faces.

The masks are not for keeping you safe, they are for keeping the people around you safe - simple paper masks limit the chance of spreading the virus to others, significantly. Add to that all of the other basic PPE we need, and there's a huge amount that can and needs to be done.

na1 · 11-05-2020 09:55PM

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I would say the complete opposite . This temporary payment will reduce people getting into debt during this time . This increased payment is mostly for people who were legally working and are now unemployed through no fault of their own.

By giving this payment now we are placing people in a good position to spend when the economy reopens . They will spend in restaurants bars and hotels all of which are labour intensive industries which will boost employment fast.

Educate yourself on economics , listen to some podcasts such as David McWilliams .

How does borrowing the money and giving it to the crowd help the economy? Especially when the is no manufacturing or services provided by those who out of work?

Why for example not cancel the income tax? then the working people can spend more money & help the economy?

HeidiHeidi · 11-05-2020 10:01PM

na1 wrote: »

How does borrowing the money and giving it to the crowd help the economy? Especially when the is no manufacturing or services provided by those who out of work?

Why for example not cancel the income tax? then the working people can spend more money & help the economy?

Because those who abruptly lost their jobs all of a sudden had no income to pay tax on, maybe?

na1 · 11-05-2020 10:01PM

RandomViewer wrote: »

Same here, the OP seems to think everyone is part time , minimum wage

I think OP would not mind if anyone out of work get the PROPORTIONAL payments:
for example 70% of the last income.

na1 · 11-05-2020 10:03PM

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

Because those who abruptly lost their jobs all of a sudden had no income to pay tax on, maybe?

Maybe they should get % of their last wage? (same as in most of the world)
you lost your job, you get what you've earned.

I personally know 2 people who're getting 350 'covid payment':
1) has just worked 2-3 weeks in the country on a minimal wage
2) was on a minimal wage job, quit it voluntarily - got 350

HeidiHeidi · 11-05-2020 10:05PM

na1 wrote: »

Maybe they should get % of their last wage? (same as in most of the world)
you lost your job, you get what you've earned.

As has been said so many times already, and was explained at the time - this happened so suddenly that there was no time get systems in place to means test the payment - it was considered the lesser of two evils to just pay a flat amount immediately, and temporarily, and ensure that everyone was covered.

na1 · 11-05-2020 10:15PM

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

As has been said so many times already, and was explained at the time - this happened so suddenly that there was no time get systems in place to means test the payment

I know the 'official explanation' of these payments.
I think maybe its the system needs to be fixed?

For example: the working people are allowed a tax relief up to €3.20 per day!

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/health_and_safety/working_at_home.html#l742d3

But even to get these 3.2 per day, you need to apply at the end of the year, and provide the evidence. And they will verify your eligibility

So:
- to get 350 a week one just need to apply without any proof.
- to get up to 16 per week you need to wait until the end of the year, and provide the evidence

HeidiHeidi · 11-05-2020 10:18PM

na1 wrote: »

I know the 'official explanation' of these payments.
I think maybe its the system needs to be fixed?

For example: the working people are allowed a tax relief up to €3.20 per day!

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/health_and_safety/working_at_home.html#l742d3

But even to get these 3.2 per day, you need to apply at the end of the year, and provide the evidence. And they will verify your eligibility

So:
- to get 350 a week one just need to apply without any proof.
- to get up to 16 per week you need to wait until the end of the year, and provide the evidence

I don't really understand most of your post, tbh.

But two things -

Firstly, there was no "system" for this. It happened suddenly, and they put in place what they thought was the best arrangement that could be organised quickest. They knew there was a flaw in it that resulted in moral hazard in some cases, but decided to run with it anyway.

And the €350 is taxable.

sydthebeat · 11-05-2020 10:24PM

Steer55 wrote: »

Yes we do need the N95's for everyone, to.suggest otherwise is ludicrous. They the only mask that keep the virus out. Using the cheaper alternatives made out of tissue paper and cloth would be the same as simply just wrapping a scarf around our faces.

masks are not to keep the virus out... they are to keep it in

combat14 · 11-05-2020 10:26PM

dont worry the covid payment and bank mortgage holidays will soon be coming to an end the country and banks cant afford it

time for some of the commercial landlords to take some of the pain

na1 · 11-05-2020 10:29PM

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

I don't really understand most of your post, tbh.
But two things -
Firstly, there was no "system" for this. It happened suddenly, and they put in place what they thought was the best arrangement that could be organised quickest.

I still don't understand: they DO have the capacity to calculate every one's taxes at the end of the year, right?
So why don't they make it a self assessment payment of for example 70% income, where everyone can evaluate how much the state 'owns' them and make a claim?
They DON'T need the resources to evaluate payment, and make anyone get the amount they calculated?

And at the end of the year they can calculate the exact amount for everyone? And if somebody got overpayed - they can claim it back, and if somebody get underpayed - get the refund.

The 350 a week was a catastrophic and costly mistake

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