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The Hobby Horses of Belief (and assorted hazards)

  • 28-04-2020 11:51am
    #1
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭


    Alas and alack Hazards of Belief thread reached the end of it's meandering musings and had to be stabled.

    Fear not - we have a new track to gallop upon.

    Previous thread started here in June, 2006 and finished here in April 2020.


«134567…19

Comments

  • #2
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    continued from previous thread...
    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    You are not comparing like with like here, and are instead talking about something where we would be much more in agreement. I would be applying the term "hobby" to pursuits one does of ones own volition. If religion, or religious practice, is being forced upon you and you have no choice in it then absolutely I would lose the term "hobby" and seek another. I would be looking for words in the direction of "Abuse" "indentured" and more to describe that.

    Thing is, the vast majority of people who are religious got their religion by dint of where they were born. It was never a matter of choice or preference. Religion is by and large something presented to children at a very young age by their family, reinforced during education and expected of them by their community. It is an intrinsic part of many societies not a leisure time adjunct.

    As religiosity diminishes in some countries like Ireland, it is easy to compare those few who remain more devout in the same light as obsessive hobbyists but I personally don't think this is reasonable.


  • #3
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    smacl wrote: »
    Thing is, the vast majority of people who are religious got their religion by dint of where they were born. It was never a matter of choice or preference.

    I kinda both agree and disagree with that. Though I do not see it as negating my use of the word the conversation started about. I see it as a useful different conversation entirely.

    I once heard the statistic for example that people in the US change religion more often than they change cell phone provider. Here in the west religion is more of a choice than it is in the more Fundamentalist Muslim areas you mentioned. Remember my original post, not about the word hobby at all, was about charity in a US context.

    And that is a useful distinction. Something forced upon you, that you can not NOT partake in, is not something I ever would, or ever had, called a hobby. I call it an abuse. An abuse that much of my work off line in the real world of activism has been directed at preventing or changing.


  • #4
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    had to be stabled.
    i read that as 'had to be stabbed' which seemed a little OTT.


  • #5
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    i read that as 'had to be stabbed' which seemed a little OTT.

    I'm keeping that as an option for some other threads.


  • #6
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    i read that as 'had to be stabbed' which seemed a little OTT.

    So on one thread people needed to be impregnated, and another stabbed.

    For a forum that has become very quite of late, it's getting vicious in here :)


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  • #7
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Hardly worth noting in the continuing trainwreck which is the USA these days, but recently, one Mark Grenon, a christian fndamentalist based in Florida, seemingly wrote to Mafia Don telling him that you could cure covid using bleach. Shortly after, #45 did his infamous press conference when he touted bleach injections and people shining lights inside them.

    https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/florida-church-leader-selling-bleach-as-coronavirus-cure-wrote-trump-11628259
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-leader-group-peddling-bleach-cure-lobbied-trump-coronavirus

    While the FDA has warned people off drinking bleach since at least 2019, people in the US do seem to have been calling poison control centers in increased numbers since the start of March.


  • #8
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    https://www.picpasteplus.com/v.php?i=1167850c17

    I always struggle to show the image, rather than the link, on this site. What am I doing wrong :) If I wrap the above in IMG tags, it just comes up blank.


  • #9
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I'm keeping that as an option for some other threads.




    ...shouldn't the thread be a sticky?


  • #10
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    https://www.picpasteplus.com/v.php?i=1167850c17

    I always struggle to show the image, rather than the link, on this site. What am I doing wrong :) If I wrap the above in IMG tags, it just comes up blank.

    That particular site is designed to thwart direct linking of pictures. Workaround is to capture the screen, save it locally, attach it to your post and IMG the attachment link, as shown below;

    511195.jpg


  • #11
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Odhinn wrote: »
    ...shouldn't the thread be a sticky?

    Just checking if anyone was paying attention.

    I did not wander off for a nap and forget to sticky it.
    *mental reservations*


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  • #12
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    So over here in Germany even many of those who disagree with the lock down (the usual arguments of course, of how much it's harming the economy and general well being) still at least FOLLOW the lock down. They realise that if we have to do it, we may as well do it right while we are doing it. No point buggering the economy and torpedoing the benefits of doing so too.

    So of course most get togethers over 2 people are banned and people generally are avoiding having them.

    Who goes to the Top German courts to get an exception to this because their little get togethers are more important than everyone elses, or the well being of peoples health or the economy? The religious of course.

    And they got granted it. Specifically a Muslim Group in Lower Saxony who want to hold prayers for Ramadan. Apprently the court also added that the infringement of religious rights was "particularly large with respect to the Friday prayers during Ramadan". If everyones religious practices are being curtailed due to the lock down, why is it particularly large for any one specific practice of any one religion? Seems as odd to me as that time the Irish Government granted exemptions to some Jews because the Leaving Certificate exams fell on their personal Sabbath.

    Among the promises/concessions they made in order to make their little get together safer? Well apparently they promise not to sing. :-|

    Read me saying that last line in the same tone of voice and face Dave Allen delivered the line "And for your added safety when you are in the indian ocean, they give you a whistle".


  • #13
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Bit disgraceful this actually occurred let alone having to go to a court over it.


    A mother has welcomed a ruling that her son's primary school discriminated against him by rewarding his classmates with homework passes for participating in a first communion choir ceremony.
    She has told RTÉ News that she really hopes the ruling will "change things for children here who are not Catholic".
    The Workplace Relations Commission found that Yellow Furze Primary School in County Meath was wrong to incentivise attendance at a Catholic ceremony in such a way, and it awarded €5,000 to the child.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/0501/1136104-discrimination-primary-school/


  • #14
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Bit of good news -


    Sudan looks set to outlaw female genital mutilation (FGM), in a significant move welcomed by campaigners.
    Anyone found carrying out FGM will face up to three years in prison, according to a document seen by the Guardian.
    The council of ministers approved the new law on 22 April, but it still needs to be passed by members of the sovereign council, which was created following the ousting of former dictator Omar al-Bashir.
    Amira Azhary, from the National Council for Child Welfare and a campaigner for the Saleema initiative, which campaigns for an end to the practice, said: “We expect that the law will be passed by the sovereign council and if that happens, it will be an expression of the political will in this country.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/01/sudan-to-outlaw-female-genital-mutilation-fgm?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2nL1ShYWsI9GP0Prv-TLuN9fXtdT9t5wJYbYlU30RIiZm_0Goa7o5ESpE#Echobox=1588346324


    A start at least.


  • #15
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Gobshite removed from his platform. Not that that will stop him


    Facebook has taken down the official page of conspiracy theorist David Icke for publishing "health misinformation that could cause physical harm".
    Mr Icke has made several false claims about coronavirus, such as suggesting 5G mobile phone networks are linked to the spread of the virus.
    In one video, he suggested a Jewish group was behind the virus.
    Following the ban, his Twitter account posted: "Fascist Facebook deletes David Icke - the elite are TERRIFIED."
    Facebook said in a statement: "We have removed this Page for repeatedly violating our policies on harmful misinformation''.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52501453


  • #16
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Back seat poping from benny -


    The former pope Benedict XVI has accused opponents of wanting to silence him, while associating gay marriage with the Antichrist and attacking humanist ideologies in an authorised biography published in Germany.
    The 93-year-old, whose original name is Joseph Ratzinger, said in Benedict XVI – A Life he had fallen victim to a “malignant distortion of reality” in reactions to his interventions in theological debates.
    He said: “The spectacle of reactions coming from German theology is so misguided and ill-willed that I would prefer not to speak of it.”
    The former pope, who dramatically resigned in 2013, was especially criticised for a 2018 text that was considered critical of the Jewish faith. “I would rather not analyse the actual reasons why people want to silence my voice,” Benedict said in the book.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/ex-pope-benedict-xvi-accuses-opponents-of-wanting-to-silence-him?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1BFEm_w3Z6mzu1pWxN21MzCZsz_yyorAOcXSoMy_uV4hKR7XMthBgMfY0#Echobox=1588600194


  • #17
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    So I see Scotland has reintroduced blasphemy laws - frightening ...


  • #18
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    So I see Scotland has reintroduced blasphemy laws - frightening ...

    Have you a link for that?

    All I can find says a bill has been introduced to decriminalise blasphemy..

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/24/blasphemy-to-be-decriminalised-in-scottish-hate-bill


  • #19
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Have you a link for that?

    All I can find says a bill has been introduced to decriminalise blasphemy..

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/24/blasphemy-to-be-decriminalised-in-scottish-hate-bill

    There is "hate speech" laws in there and we all know what that means.
    Who defines the hate ?
    Here is the Scottish justice minister

    https://twitter.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1257348838521802752?s=20

    "Islamaphobia" is a made up bull**** term to silence critisism of Islam.
    On one hand it says it gets rid of blasphemy sure - for all other religions, except that special one which no one can say anything negative about.


  • #20
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    There is "hate speech" laws in there and we all know what that means.
    Who defines the hate ?
    Here is the Scottish justice minister

    https://twitter.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1257348838521802752?s=20

    "Islamaphobia" is a made up bull**** term to silence critisism of Islam.
    On one hand it says it gets rid of blasphemy sure - for all other religions, except that special one which no one can say anything negative about.

    Ah, I see.

    The SNP have introduced a bill to remove 'blasphemy' form the statue books but will have 'hate crime' legislation which according to the Scottish Justice Minister
    Justice minister Humza Yousaf said the law would be modernised and also cover discrimination against age, disability, race, religion and sexual orientation.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/24/blasphemy-to-be-decriminalised-in-scottish-hate-bill

    You have extrapolated this to mean it's a law that places the religion of Islam off limits and your proof is a tweet referencing a vocal anti-Scottish independence/SNP person or other.

    You do realise the same law would protect... oh...let's say Catholics from discrimination in areas that are Orange in terms of religion/politics,like parts of Glasgow?

    It does not say you cannot criticise a religion - it says you cannot get your hat and sash on and start hating on someone because they are of a particular religion.


  • #21
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    We all know it will be used to stop any criticism of Islam - who defines it btw ?

    Who gets to define this "hate speech" ?


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  • #22
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,644 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    We all know it will be used to stop any criticism of Islam - who defines it btw ?

    Who gets to define this "hate speech" ?

    No!

    This is just your claim and you are using this to fit your agenda, anyone can tell from a quick glance at your posting history exactly what agenda I am referring to.


  • #23
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    We all know it will be used to stop any criticism of Islam - who defines it btw ?

    Who gets to define this "hate speech" ?

    The legislators write the Bill.
    The Parliament votes on the Bill.
    If passed it is enacted.
    Then it is up to the Courts to interpret it.

    Same as every, single, other, piece of legislation.

    Are you claiming the Scottish (devolved) government, parliament, and legal profession are now all so in thrall that they would consider the word 'religion' in hate crime legislation to mean Islam and Islam only?


  • #24
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    There is "hate speech" laws in there and we all know what that means.
    Hector Savage wrote: »
    We all know it


    "we" don't.


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    "Islamaphobia" is a made up bull**** term to silence critisism of Islam.
    .............




    No, it's term used to describe the attitudes of those with a deep and irrational hatred of Islam and - especially - muslims.


  • #25
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Are you claiming the Scottish (devolved) government, parliament, and legal profession are now all so in thrall that they would consider the word 'religion' in hate crime legislation to mean Islam and Islam only?
    In the strange world of the professionally-propagandized, yes - you've hit the nail on the head :rolleyes:
    Odhinn wrote: »
    Hector Savage wrote: »
    There is "hate speech" laws in there and we all know what that means.
    "we" don't.
    The "we all know XXX" phrase is one of Trump's more commonly-deployed tropes - deferring to the listener to fill in the gaps while allowing the speaker to deny responsibility for whatever the speaker dreams up. It's a fairly transparent debating tactic, it has to be said.


  • #26
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    No!

    This is just your claim and you are using this to fit your agenda, anyone can tell from a quick glance at your posting history exactly what agenda I am referring to.

    agenda ? which agenda ?


  • #27
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Bit of good news -




    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/01/sudan-to-outlaw-female-genital-mutilation-fgm?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2nL1ShYWsI9GP0Prv-TLuN9fXtdT9t5wJYbYlU30RIiZm_0Goa7o5ESpE#Echobox=1588346324


    A start at least.

    Good news ? for you really ???


  • #28
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,190 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Good news ? for you really ???

    For any feeling, thinking, empathetic human being really.


  • #29
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Good news ? for you really ???






    ...a state ending, or at least trying to end, female genital mutilation is "good news", I would have thought. Why the "?"


  • #30
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Back seat poping from benny -




    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/ex-pope-benedict-xvi-accuses-opponents-of-wanting-to-silence-him?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1BFEm_w3Z6mzu1pWxN21MzCZsz_yyorAOcXSoMy_uV4hKR7XMthBgMfY0#Echobox=1588600194
    Odhinn wrote: »
    ...a state ending, or at least trying to end, female genital mutilation is "good news", I would have thought. Why the "?"

    Since you constantly defend the ideology otherwise ....

    UNCIVIL TEXT DELETED


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  • #31
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    https://metro.co.uk/video/man-mocks-muslims-pretending-pray-aladdin-1921152/

    Police investigated this, if this guy was slagging off any other religion it would be grand, but even "liberals" were looking for him to be jailed for this.

    This is the kind of shyte that will be defined as "hate speech" ...


  • #32
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Since you constantly defend the ideology otherwise ....


    I don't defend the ideology behind it, at all. I do, however, take pains to not tar all muslims with the same brush and call out those who do. Obviously you dislike disagreeing voices, which makes you far closer to conservative Islam in attitude than myself.


  • #33
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,644 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    agenda ? which agenda ?

    As i said, your post history is there for all to see, your agenda comes across VERY clearly.


  • #34
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    https://metro.co.uk/video/man-mocks-muslims-pretending-pray-aladdin-1921152/

    Police investigated this,
    No mention of that in the link.


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    if this guy was slagging off any other religion it would be grand, but even "liberals" were looking for him to be jailed for this.


    No mention of that in the link either.


  • #35
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    https://metro.co.uk/video/man-mocks-muslims-pretending-pray-aladdin-1921152/

    Police investigated this, if this guy was slagging off any other religion it would be grand, but even "liberals" were looking for him to be jailed for this.

    This is the kind of shyte that will be defined as "hate speech" ...

    What does this have to do with a proposed Scottish law? Is he Scottish? Living in Scotland?
    I never heard of this and certainly didn't call for him to be jailed.
    He's obviously a bit of a numpty looking to get a bit of attention. I don't believe Scotland have a law making being an attention seeking muppet illegal yet.


  • #36
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Odhinn wrote: »
    No mention of that in the link.






    No mention of that in the link either.

    Denial denial denial ...

    here ya go ..

    https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/17629644.video-man-mocking-muslim-prayer-room-bolton-hospital-investigated-hate-crime/
    Chief inspector John Charlton of GMP’s Bolton district said: “Those who think they can hide behind a keyboard and disseminate this kind of harmful material should expect to be investigated.

    Meanwhile if this was mockery of christians nothing would be done - and of course rightly so, but why can't they be consistent.
    Like that crowd in Ireland that were posing in front of a statue of Jesus mocking it, and that was considered progressive and liberal - again fair enough, fair play to them , but again
    be consistent of your mocking, the same crowd would fawn all over Islam.


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  • #37
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    What does this have to do with a proposed Scottish law? Is he Scottish? Living in Scotland?
    I never heard of this and certainly didn't call for him to be jailed.
    He's obviously a bit of a numpty looking to get a bit of attention. I don't believe Scotland have a law making being an attention seeking muppet illegal yet.

    This is an example of the mindset, if this is being treated as a "hate crime", what will they use this new law as an excuse to charge people with ?
    don't be so naive to think there won't be cases - just wait.

    We are talking about the British police here, people who are hiding in the bushes trying to catch out people hiking in national parks during this lockdown crap


  • #38
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Mod:
    Hector Savage wrote: »
    UNCIVIL TEXT DELETED
    Any more incivility and you'll be receiving some moderatorly discipline, pronto.


  • #39
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 8,136 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Denial denial denial ...



    https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/17629644.video-man-mocking-muslim-prayer-room-bolton-hospital-investigated-hate-crime/

    I didn't deny anything, I just pointed out that none of that was mentioned in the link you provided.


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Meanwhile if this was mockery of christians nothing would be done



    A bold claim.


  • #40
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    This is an example of the mindset, if this is being treated as a "hate crime", what will they use this new law as an excuse to charge people with ?
    don't be so naive to think there won't be cases - just wait.

    We are talking about the British police here, people who are hiding in the bushes trying to catch out people hiking in national parks during this lockdown crap

    The 'British' police?
    No such beast.
    There are many police forces in the UK plus another in Northern Ireland.

    Apparently this attention seeking numpty went into the Muslim Prayer Room in Bolton General Hospital to perform his little "Look at Me" performance art piece to camera. No doubt if a person of a more 'ethnic' appearance went into a Catholic Prayer Room wearing a frock and started to a little piece to camera where he mimicked a part of the RCC liturgy and called on Cheesus the Greater Manchester Police would be having a word.

    None of the various Scottish police forces, however, would be involved. As it didn't happen in Scotland. So it has nothing to do with a proposed Scottish Law.


  • #41
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Police investigated this, if this guy was slagging off any other religion it would be grand, but even "liberals" were looking for him to be jailed for this.

    Why are we importing this american talk into ours, calling everyone liberals and so on? You put something like that online and you will always get a vocal minority calling for the persons head or their freedom or their jobs. The mob are mad, but consistent.

    The problem is YOU tend to fixate solely on stories regarding Islam. And then act surprised and offended when people do not fall over and hate it/them as much as you do.

    But why cherry pick stories in this way? There was a man who used the word "n*gger" while explaining an ANTI racist position and they went for his head too. And they got it if I recall, he lost his job I think. I need to recheck the details there, but he was EXACTLY the wrong person to go after for racism and the mob went there anyway. There was a guy who trained his dog to do a nazi salute. They went for him online too. FFS that was actually funny, and they still wanted blood.

    You will ALWAYS find an online mob foaming at the mouth at people over little or no slight at all. YOU choose to focus on the Islam stories and build a narrative out of that. And I think that is what people above meant by your ongoing posting history.

    Read my latest post about Germany above for example. It happened to be about Muslims actually, not sure if you bothered to read it. I mentioned it was Muslims as an aside. I did not make the focus of my post or point AT ALL however. I would have written the same post regardless of what religion it was and in fact I got a dig in at some Jews too.

    Islamaphobia is not the right word for you here I think. There is a phrase "Trump Derangement Syndrome". I think we can create a new phrase like "Islam derangement syndrome" to describe the ongoing narrative with you.
    Hector Savage wrote: »
    This is the kind of shyte that will be defined as "hate speech" ...

    I do not have your psychic powers or crystal ball. But if anyone in any country I have any power or say or activism in does try to criminalise people making dumb ass videos with no actual hate in them I will be on the side fighting against it. And I will not be making it about Islam while I do it, because to do so would only create the impression of an agenda I do not actually have and make ME look bad, not them.
    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Denial denial denial ...

    Stall up the rant there horse. The user simply said that the two claims you made were not contained in, or supported by, the link you cited. That is not "denial", but a perfectly valid and proper thing to say. If you make a claim and a citation, and the citation has nothing to do with the claim, it is proper order to point this fact out.

    Now that you actually HAVE bothered to provide a relevant link it can be discussed. I would certainly like to have a word with the Cop in question and ask him what he thinks is "harmful material" there. I see poor humour that is in bad taste. Actually I LIKE bad taste humor myself when it is actually funny. But when it is bad taste AND unfunny, I just find it dumb. Not harmful.

    I got legal threats and death threats (occasionally still get the latter, never the former any more, and even have one guy who must have an annual reminder set in Outlook to tell me he is still after me) for this article here. Not just death threats against me but against my family. In fact in one example someone said they wanted to kidnap and hold captive my little daughter because to them it was the SAME THING as me holding the "body" of their "lord". Holding a little girl child captive away from their family, alone and scared and confused, is the SAME thing to this "Christian" as me having a cracker in a drawer. Get your head around that one and what core beliefs are required to reach that conclusion.

    You are simply wrong to think the mob does not go for people when they mock or blaspheme Christianity. The problem is the MEDIA knows stories about Islam get people with your issue to click bait like clockwork, so they only sensationalise and hype those stories. Was it not Christians who for example murdered abortion doctors and blew up their clinics?

    It is a cyclical process. The online mob go for this crap, the media report on the mob, and people like you click the clickbait and rant that the world does not particularly and specifically hate Muslims as much as you do when they do not fall over the story the same way.

    As for me? I hold all religions in equal regard when it comes to mockery and I have never been censored for it, and I do point out that of all our religions Islam is currently the most dangerous and deranged, and is centred around a personality cult of a guy who appears to have possibly been a pedophile and a cynophobe and an OCD control freak..... all again without censor.

    So the "left wing liberal conspiracy" you seem to think is going on around this forum does not seem to be there. The issue is that I conduct myself in a civil and coherent fashion when I go after that religion. I do not choose to rant and rave or instantly go on the attack against other posters.
    Hector Savage wrote: »
    "Islamaphobia" is a made up bull**** term to silence critisism of Islam.

    Not quite, but you are half right. Islamaphobia is a term that like...... lets say "mansplaining" or "nazi"...... is a term that was made up with a real meaning, with a genuinely useful application, and could be used coherently.

    But much like words like "mansplaining" and "nazi" the words were commandeered by those who like to silence others in debate, rather than engage with them in debate, and they have rendered the word near useless and meaningless.

    However the tactic does not always require simply misusing an otherwise useful word. For example above when you wrote to a user "Since you constantly defend the ideology otherwise ...." you were essentially engaged in the same thing people are doing NOW when they use the word "Islamophobia" which is attempting to shut down discourse with cheap points scoring and firing accusations that do not even fit the target.

    So while you deride the use of the word "Islamophobia" you essentially move to become what you hate by doing the very same thing with unsubstantiated mis-labeling of those you disagree with. For shame sir. For. Shame. Sir.
    Hector Savage wrote: »
    for all other religions, except that special one which no one can say anything negative about.

    No one who? I say negative things about it all the time. So does Sam Harris. No one has stopped either of us.


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  • #42
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    The 'British' police?
    No such beast.



    There are many police forces in the UK plus another in Northern Ireland.
    Disingenuous - you know what I mean.
    Apparently this attention seeking numpty went into the Muslim Prayer Room in Bolton General Hospital to perform his little "Look at Me" performance art piece to camera.
    Like the attention seeking numpties that went into a RCC church in Ireland and performed in front of statues ? - but of course they were progressive heroes ...
    No doubt if a person of a more 'ethnic' appearance went into a Catholic Prayer Room wearing a frock and started to a little piece to camera where he mimicked a part of the RCC liturgy and called on Cheesus the Greater Manchester Police would be having a word.

    ethnic ? why are you bringing race into this ? sounds racist to be honest ... and eh no, the police would not be having a word - and you well know it ...


  • #43
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

    The problem is YOU tend to fixate solely on stories regarding Islam. And then act surprised and offended when people do not fall over and hate it/them as much as you do.
    .

    That's a laugh, before these last 2 days it's been months since I posted in here, you have posters who literally are in here EVERY DAY slagging off the RCC (fine - but why don't you say they are fixated on Christianity) ??

    And the reason I 'fixate' on Islam is because it is the greatest threat religion wise to modern society, RCC is pretty much dead in Ireland, Christianity is dying out,
    Islam however is growing and growing and seems to be getting more fundamental.

    You have Odhinn here posting about ex Pope Benedict - yeah he's a real threat, no one takes notice of him, he'll be dead in the next few years and is basically a laughing stock - he has zero power

    Meanwhile, you have bookshops in the UK being investigated by police for throwing out Korans they couldn't sell...


  • #44
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Like the attention seeking numpties that went into a RCC church in Ireland and performed in front of statues ? - but of course they were progressive heroes ...

    To who? Exactly who is espousing the position they are heroes? Where are your citations? I would like to know exactly who we are talking about here and in what numbers.

    I have looked online at your pet story here about the guys doing the Muslim prayer. There are the occasional poster commenters lauding AND condemning them too.

    It is the mob Hector. You get someone dancing in a RCC church, a Muslim prayer room, using the wrong word, or teaching their dog a nazi salute.... the mob will ALWAYS have people out for their blood on one side and calling them heroes on the other side.

    So why is it specifically only when it involves Islam that you go off on a rant? What, in effect, is actually your point?
    Hector Savage wrote: »
    and eh no, the police would not be having a word - and you well know it ...

    Ah once again the "you know it" phrase when you have no evidence for your position. I believe another user commented on your continued use of that ploy above. Actually the police very much do "have a word" with people for more than just hate crimes against muslims.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45874265
    "The religions that police count hate crimes for are: Buddhist; Christian; Hindu; Jewish; Muslim and Sikh. They also have categories of "no religion", "other" and "unknown"."

    You seem to want to build this narrative that the outrage, and the law, and the cops, only come when Muslims have been offended. And the real world simply does not substantiate your position. Once again: What, in effect, is actually your point?
    Hector Savage wrote: »
    That's a laugh, before these last 2 days it's been months since I posted in here

    And your record played has not changed one note of it's tune in the interim.
    Hector Savage wrote: »
    you have posters who literally are in here EVERY DAY slagging off the RCC (fine - but why don't you say they are fixated on Christianity) ??

    I do think they are fixated on Christianity. The difference is I know WHY they are. We live in a country the religion of which is near totally dominated by Christianity/Catholicism. Nearly all their direct lived experience, impacts, and anecdotes are therefore going to be related to Christianity. It is therefore clear why the majority, sometimes even the totality, of their prose will be sent in that direction.

    What your point, issue, problem is is not as easily explicable. The disparity in mockery and hate crimes, and response to them, simply is not as pronounced as your response to them would indicate.

    So I know where THEY are coming from, with you I just have to keep asking: What, in effect, is actually your point?
    Hector Savage wrote: »
    And the reason I 'fixate' on Islam is because it is the greatest threat religion wise to modern society

    Here we are mostly agreed, as I said in my post most of which you did not bother to reply to, I also think it is among the worst religions we have today.

    But the content of the posts you make here, and your disproportionate reaction to users who do not see it your way (if I recall last time you even got carded for telling a user to P off) do not seem to scale with that position.

    You trot out lines like "Yes indeed, anti RCC is "progressive" , while anything remotely anti Islam is "racist""

    Or you post a video calling it "wrong" and when people ask you to explain the actual issue with the video you run off saying we should just know your point somehow.

    Or you trot out the accusation "No surprise that most on here are getting behind the Islamists." when no one actually did and then run away saying "Jesus Christ, why did I ****ing come back!!!" before periodically just coming back anyway to repeat it all again.

    I genuinely do not know what your point/goal here actually is, what you want from us, why you get so uppity when you do not get it, or what responses you'd PREFER we give. Because I recall that time you totally strawmanned Dara OBrian (again before running off) pretending he was a coward in the face of Islam and was essentially mollycoddling it, when he said/did no such thing at all in the clip you provided.
    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Islam however is growing and growing and seems to be getting more fundamental.

    "Seems" is the word I would focus on there because once again I get the deep feeling you have no data for this but are responding to the rise in click bait articles on the matter.

    And you have my sympathy there. You are not alone. We have people releasing studies and books on crime statistics showing that violent and sexual crimes are down. But when you ask people on the street they tell you they "seem" to be up. Why? Because the click bait shock bait HEADLINES on such things are up, and people get the commensurate impression the crimes themselves must therefore be too.

    How much is Islam ACTUALLY increasing in this country and how much is fundamentalism specifically ACTUALLY increasing in this country? Do you have actual citations and evidence on this matter, or are you working solely off the feelz you get because the great Click Bait Alogorithm has learned what to show you to get your blood curdling?


  • #45
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    ^^ good post actually, and with that, i'll bow out, it's as close as we'll get to agreement... ;)


  • #46
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    That's a laugh, before these last 2 days it's been months since I posted in here, you have posters who literally are in here EVERY DAY slagging off the RCC (fine - but why don't you say they are fixated on Christianity) ??

    The reason that there is more focus on Christianity in general and the RCC specifically is that boards.ie is an Irish site where the majority of the posters come from an Irish Catholic background, many of whom have issues with how they or their families have been treated by the RCC church. There is a relatively tiny amount of first hand experience with Islam by comparison. The notion that posters here show special deference to Islam is specious. The criticism tends to be against all forms of discrimination, whether it be gender, sexual orientation, religion or ethnicity. Plenty of us have experienced this discrimination first hand by the RCC because we live in a country that was once dominated by the RCC. As such the RCC gets plenty of flak.
    And the reason I 'fixate' on Islam is because it is the greatest threat religion wise to modern society, RCC is pretty much dead in Ireland, Christianity is dying out,
    Islam however is growing and growing and seems to be getting more fundamental.

    Not according to the last census. The RCC is in decline, but Islam is absolutely tiny in this country by comparison. I don't think Islam represents any level of threat unless it is accompanied by ghettoisation, which in turn is a function of how society treats minority groups. The problem arises when you discriminate against any minority such that they become isolated from the rest of society and marginalised. Strong anti-Islamic sentiment fuels this and is deservedly given a hard time as a result.


  • #47
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Disingenuous - you know what I mean.


    Like the attention seeking numpties that went into a RCC church in Ireland and performed in front of statues ? - but of course they were progressive heroes ...



    ethnic ? why are you bringing race into this ? sounds racist to be honest ... and eh no, the police would not be having a word - and you well know it ...

    Disingenuous is being all outraged by a false interpretation of a change in law being discussed by the government in one legal jurisdiction and using the actions of an attention seeking numpty in another legal jurisdiction to bolster your non argument. The Bolton Bobber would not be affected in anyway by a law in Scotland. However, those who are the victims in Scotland of the same Christian Sectarian violence that has also affected Northern Ireland will be affected - hopefully in a positive way.

    Attention seeking is attention seeking. I am as unaware of the Irish ones as I was of the Bolton Bobber - and I remain unaware as you have not provided any link. So I can safely say I hailed them not at all.

    Would you prefer I spelled it 'effnick'? I could also explain why it had inverted commas. But sure - you try and play the race card against me while you continue frothing about the threat of Islam....


  • #48
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Disingenuous is being all outraged by a false interpretation of a change in law being discussed by the government in one legal jurisdiction and using the actions of an attention seeking numpty in another legal jurisdiction to bolster your non argument. The Bolton Bobber would not be affected in anyway by a law in Scotland. However, those who are the victims in Scotland of the same Christian Sectarian violence that has also affected Northern Ireland will be affected - hopefully in a positive way.

    Attention seeking is attention seeking. I am as unaware of the Irish ones as I was of the Bolton Bobber - and I remain unaware as you have not provided any link. So I can safely say I hailed them not at all.

    Would you prefer I spelled it 'effnick'? I could also explain why it had inverted commas. But sure - you try and play the race card against me while you continue frothing about the threat of Islam....
    OK in fairness I just noticed the quotes ...

    effnick - thats a low one ....


  • #49
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    smacl wrote: »
    Strong anti-Islamic sentiment fuels this and is deservedly given a hard time as a result.
    A propos of anti-immigrant sentiment, was a link to that recent petition concerning Ms O'Doherty + Mr Waters posted? 90,000 signatures and counting at the time of posting now.

    https://www.change.org/p/irish-court-services-gemma-o-doherty-and-or-john-waters-do-not-speak-for-us
    Michelle Ryan wrote:
    We as Irish citizens (AKA ‘the people of Ireland’) want the Irish Court services and frontline workers to know that Gemma O’Doherty and/or John Waters do not speak for us.


  • #50
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    robindch wrote: »
    A propos of anti-immigrant sentiment, was a link to that recent petition concerning Ms O'Doherty + Mr Waters posted? 90,000 signatures and counting at the time of posting now.

    https://www.change.org/p/irish-court-services-gemma-o-doherty-and-or-john-waters-do-not-speak-for-us

    Yes indeed, signed it myself last week. We have a fair number of immigrants throughout our health care system at the moment.


  • #51
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,475 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    robindch wrote: »
    While the FDA has warned people off drinking bleach since at least 2019, people in the US do seem to have been calling poison control centers in increased numbers since the start of March.

    Australian ‘healing church’ fined for selling bleach as a coronavirus cure
    A “healing church” that promoted a solution containing industrial bleach as a cure for coronavirus has been fined more than $150,000 for multiple allegedly unlawful advertising offences.

    On Wednesday Australia’s drugs regulator, the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA), said the Australian chapter of the Genesis II Church of Health and Healing had been fined for selling and promoting a solution containing sodium chlorite, a chemical used as a textile bleaching agent and disinfectant.

    The Australian website for the church, MMS Australia, falsely claimed the solution could treat, cure, prevent and alleviate diseases including Covid-19, HIV and cancer, the TGA said.

    It has been revealed that Genesis II church US leader, Mark Grenon, wrote to Donald Trump just days before the US president claimed disinfectant could be a coronavirus cure.

    The letter stated that chlorine dioxide - a powerful bleach used in industrial processes such as textile manufacturing that can have fatal side-effects when drunk - is “a wonderful detox that can kill 99 per cent of the pathogens in the body”. He added that it “can rid the body of Covid-19”.

    An Australian representative of the church’s MMS Australia Foundation previously told Guardian Australia: “Do you go into the Catholic church and question them about the wine or the bread that they serve in the Eucharist? No, so why doesn’t the world leave us alone? These are our sacraments and we should be free to use it and teach other people to use it.”

    Dr Ken Harvey, an associate professor of public health from Monash University, said he welcomed the fine but it was not a strong enough deterrent given the product had been causing issues for years.

    “Yes the TGA issued infringement notices but this is just essentially an invitation to pay the fine or go to court and argue their case,” Harvey said. “In the meantime the MMS website is still up selling the products, with a few extras disclaimers, and they are now trying to label it as some kind of religious sacrament.

    “What the TGA needs to do is order the website be taken down and a safety and warning notice and apology put in its place. While an infringement notice is a good step, it hasn’t done anything to stop the website, which is still promoting and selling it.”

    Somehow I don't think these people are as stupid as they make themselves out to be, they know a good money making opportunity when they see one. $150k probably not even all of the profit they've made so far. Any organisation puling this sort of crap should be shut down and have all its assets confiscated.

    Scrap the cap!



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