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The Hobby Horses of Belief (and assorted hazards)

Bannasidhe

Alas and alack Hazards of Belief thread reached the end of it's meandering musings and had to be stabled.

Fear not - we have a new track to gallop upon.

Previous thread started here in June, 2006 and finished here in April 2020.

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nozzferrahhtoo

Hector Savage wrote: »

Like the attention seeking numpties that went into a RCC church in Ireland and performed in front of statues ? - but of course they were progressive heroes ...

To who? Exactly who is espousing the position they are heroes? Where are your citations? I would like to know exactly who we are talking about here and in what numbers.

I have looked online at your pet story here about the guys doing the Muslim prayer. There are the occasional poster commenters lauding AND condemning them too.

It is the mob Hector. You get someone dancing in a RCC church, a Muslim prayer room, using the wrong word, or teaching their dog a nazi salute.... the mob will ALWAYS have people out for their blood on one side and calling them heroes on the other side.

So why is it specifically only when it involves Islam that you go off on a rant? What, in effect, is actually your point?

Hector Savage wrote: »

and eh no, the police would not be having a word - and you well know it ...

Ah once again the "you know it" phrase when you have no evidence for your position. I believe another user commented on your continued use of that ploy above. Actually the police very much do "have a word" with people for more than just hate crimes against muslims.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45874265
"The religions that police count hate crimes for are: Buddhist; Christian; Hindu; Jewish; Muslim and Sikh. They also have categories of "no religion", "other" and "unknown"."

You seem to want to build this narrative that the outrage, and the law, and the cops, only come when Muslims have been offended. And the real world simply does not substantiate your position. Once again: What, in effect, is actually your point?

Hector Savage wrote: »

That's a laugh, before these last 2 days it's been months since I posted in here

And your record played has not changed one note of it's tune in the interim.

Hector Savage wrote: »

you have posters who literally are in here EVERY DAY slagging off the RCC (fine - but why don't you say they are fixated on Christianity) ??

I do think they are fixated on Christianity. The difference is I know WHY they are. We live in a country the religion of which is near totally dominated by Christianity/Catholicism. Nearly all their direct lived experience, impacts, and anecdotes are therefore going to be related to Christianity. It is therefore clear why the majority, sometimes even the totality, of their prose will be sent in that direction.

What your point, issue, problem is is not as easily explicable. The disparity in mockery and hate crimes, and response to them, simply is not as pronounced as your response to them would indicate.

So I know where THEY are coming from, with you I just have to keep asking: What, in effect, is actually your point?

Hector Savage wrote: »

And the reason I 'fixate' on Islam is because it is the greatest threat religion wise to modern society

Here we are mostly agreed, as I said in my post most of which you did not bother to reply to, I also think it is among the worst religions we have today.

But the content of the posts you make here, and your disproportionate reaction to users who do not see it your way (if I recall last time you even got carded for telling a user to P off) do not seem to scale with that position.

You trot out lines like "Yes indeed, anti RCC is "progressive" , while anything remotely anti Islam is "racist""

Or you post a video calling it "wrong" and when people ask you to explain the actual issue with the video you run off saying we should just know your point somehow.

Or you trot out the accusation "No surprise that most on here are getting behind the Islamists." when no one actually did and then run away saying "Jesus Christ, why did I ****ing come back!!!" before periodically just coming back anyway to repeat it all again.

I genuinely do not know what your point/goal here actually is, what you want from us, why you get so uppity when you do not get it, or what responses you'd PREFER we give. Because I recall that time you totally strawmanned Dara OBrian (again before running off) pretending he was a coward in the face of Islam and was essentially mollycoddling it, when he said/did no such thing at all in the clip you provided.

Hector Savage wrote: »

Islam however is growing and growing and seems to be getting more fundamental.

"Seems" is the word I would focus on there because once again I get the deep feeling you have no data for this but are responding to the rise in click bait articles on the matter.

And you have my sympathy there. You are not alone. We have people releasing studies and books on crime statistics showing that violent and sexual crimes are down. But when you ask people on the street they tell you they "seem" to be up. Why? Because the click bait shock bait HEADLINES on such things are up, and people get the commensurate impression the crimes themselves must therefore be too.

How much is Islam ACTUALLY increasing in this country and how much is fundamentalism specifically ACTUALLY increasing in this country? Do you have actual citations and evidence on this matter, or are you working solely off the feelz you get because the great Click Bait Alogorithm has learned what to show you to get your blood curdling?

Hector Savage

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

The problem is YOU tend to fixate solely on stories regarding Islam. And then act surprised and offended when people do not fall over and hate it/them as much as you do.
.

That's a laugh, before these last 2 days it's been months since I posted in here, you have posters who literally are in here EVERY DAY slagging off the RCC (fine - but why don't you say they are fixated on Christianity) ??

And the reason I 'fixate' on Islam is because it is the greatest threat religion wise to modern society, RCC is pretty much dead in Ireland, Christianity is dying out,
Islam however is growing and growing and seems to be getting more fundamental.

You have Odhinn here posting about ex Pope Benedict - yeah he's a real threat, no one takes notice of him, he'll be dead in the next few years and is basically a laughing stock - he has zero power

Meanwhile, you have bookshops in the UK being investigated by police for throwing out Korans they couldn't sell...

Hector Savage

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The 'British' police?
No such beast.

There are many police forces in the UK plus another in Northern Ireland.

Disingenuous - you know what I mean.

Apparently this attention seeking numpty went into the Muslim Prayer Room in Bolton General Hospital to perform his little "Look at Me" performance art piece to camera.

Like the attention seeking numpties that went into a RCC church in Ireland and performed in front of statues ? - but of course they were progressive heroes ...

No doubt if a person of a more 'ethnic' appearance went into a Catholic Prayer Room wearing a frock and started to a little piece to camera where he mimicked a part of the RCC liturgy and called on Cheesus the Greater Manchester Police would be having a word.

ethnic ? why are you bringing race into this ? sounds racist to be honest ... and eh no, the police would not be having a word - and you well know it ...

nozzferrahhtoo

Hector Savage wrote: »

Police investigated this, if this guy was slagging off any other religion it would be grand, but even "liberals" were looking for him to be jailed for this.

Why are we importing this american talk into ours, calling everyone liberals and so on? You put something like that online and you will always get a vocal minority calling for the persons head or their freedom or their jobs. The mob are mad, but consistent.

The problem is YOU tend to fixate solely on stories regarding Islam. And then act surprised and offended when people do not fall over and hate it/them as much as you do.

But why cherry pick stories in this way? There was a man who used the word "n*gger" while explaining an ANTI racist position and they went for his head too. And they got it if I recall, he lost his job I think. I need to recheck the details there, but he was EXACTLY the wrong person to go after for racism and the mob went there anyway. There was a guy who trained his dog to do a nazi salute. They went for him online too. FFS that was actually funny, and they still wanted blood.

You will ALWAYS find an online mob foaming at the mouth at people over little or no slight at all. YOU choose to focus on the Islam stories and build a narrative out of that. And I think that is what people above meant by your ongoing posting history.

Read my latest post about Germany above for example. It happened to be about Muslims actually, not sure if you bothered to read it. I mentioned it was Muslims as an aside. I did not make the focus of my post or point AT ALL however. I would have written the same post regardless of what religion it was and in fact I got a dig in at some Jews too.

Islamaphobia is not the right word for you here I think. There is a phrase "Trump Derangement Syndrome". I think we can create a new phrase like "Islam derangement syndrome" to describe the ongoing narrative with you.

Hector Savage wrote: »

This is the kind of shyte that will be defined as "hate speech" ...

I do not have your psychic powers or crystal ball. But if anyone in any country I have any power or say or activism in does try to criminalise people making dumb ass videos with no actual hate in them I will be on the side fighting against it. And I will not be making it about Islam while I do it, because to do so would only create the impression of an agenda I do not actually have and make ME look bad, not them.

Hector Savage wrote: »

Denial denial denial ...

Stall up the rant there horse. The user simply said that the two claims you made were not contained in, or supported by, the link you cited. That is not "denial", but a perfectly valid and proper thing to say. If you make a claim and a citation, and the citation has nothing to do with the claim, it is proper order to point this fact out.

Now that you actually HAVE bothered to provide a relevant link it can be discussed. I would certainly like to have a word with the Cop in question and ask him what he thinks is "harmful material" there. I see poor humour that is in bad taste. Actually I LIKE bad taste humor myself when it is actually funny. But when it is bad taste AND unfunny, I just find it dumb. Not harmful.

I got legal threats and death threats (occasionally still get the latter, never the former any more, and even have one guy who must have an annual reminder set in Outlook to tell me he is still after me) for this article here. Not just death threats against me but against my family. In fact in one example someone said they wanted to kidnap and hold captive my little daughter because to them it was the SAME THING as me holding the "body" of their "lord". Holding a little girl child captive away from their family, alone and scared and confused, is the SAME thing to this "Christian" as me having a cracker in a drawer. Get your head around that one and what core beliefs are required to reach that conclusion.

You are simply wrong to think the mob does not go for people when they mock or blaspheme Christianity. The problem is the MEDIA knows stories about Islam get people with your issue to click bait like clockwork, so they only sensationalise and hype those stories. Was it not Christians who for example murdered abortion doctors and blew up their clinics?

It is a cyclical process. The online mob go for this crap, the media report on the mob, and people like you click the clickbait and rant that the world does not particularly and specifically hate Muslims as much as you do when they do not fall over the story the same way.

As for me? I hold all religions in equal regard when it comes to mockery and I have never been censored for it, and I do point out that of all our religions Islam is currently the most dangerous and deranged, and is centred around a personality cult of a guy who appears to have possibly been a pedophile and a cynophobe and an OCD control freak..... all again without censor.

So the "left wing liberal conspiracy" you seem to think is going on around this forum does not seem to be there. The issue is that I conduct myself in a civil and coherent fashion when I go after that religion. I do not choose to rant and rave or instantly go on the attack against other posters.

Hector Savage wrote: »

"Islamaphobia" is a made up bull**** term to silence critisism of Islam.

Not quite, but you are half right. Islamaphobia is a term that like...... lets say "mansplaining" or "nazi"...... is a term that was made up with a real meaning, with a genuinely useful application, and could be used coherently.

But much like words like "mansplaining" and "nazi" the words were commandeered by those who like to silence others in debate, rather than engage with them in debate, and they have rendered the word near useless and meaningless.

However the tactic does not always require simply misusing an otherwise useful word. For example above when you wrote to a user "Since you constantly defend the ideology otherwise ...." you were essentially engaged in the same thing people are doing NOW when they use the word "Islamophobia" which is attempting to shut down discourse with cheap points scoring and firing accusations that do not even fit the target.

So while you deride the use of the word "Islamophobia" you essentially move to become what you hate by doing the very same thing with unsubstantiated mis-labeling of those you disagree with. For shame sir. For. Shame. Sir.

Hector Savage wrote: »

for all other religions, except that special one which no one can say anything negative about.

No one who? I say negative things about it all the time. So does Sam Harris. No one has stopped either of us.

Bannasidhe

Hector Savage wrote: »

This is an example of the mindset, if this is being treated as a "hate crime", what will they use this new law as an excuse to charge people with ?
don't be so naive to think there won't be cases - just wait.

We are talking about the British police here, people who are hiding in the bushes trying to catch out people hiking in national parks during this lockdown crap

The 'British' police?
No such beast.
There are many police forces in the UK plus another in Northern Ireland.

Apparently this attention seeking numpty went into the Muslim Prayer Room in Bolton General Hospital to perform his little "Look at Me" performance art piece to camera. No doubt if a person of a more 'ethnic' appearance went into a Catholic Prayer Room wearing a frock and started to a little piece to camera where he mimicked a part of the RCC liturgy and called on Cheesus the Greater Manchester Police would be having a word.

None of the various Scottish police forces, however, would be involved. As it didn't happen in Scotland. So it has nothing to do with a proposed Scottish Law.

Odhinn

Hector Savage wrote: »

Denial denial denial ...

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/17629644.video-man-mocking-muslim-prayer-room-bolton-hospital-investigated-hate-crime/

I didn't deny anything, I just pointed out that none of that was mentioned in the link you provided.

Hector Savage wrote: »

Meanwhile if this was mockery of christians nothing would be done

A bold claim.

robindch

Mod:

Hector Savage wrote: »

UNCIVIL TEXT DELETED

Any more incivility and you'll be receiving some moderatorly discipline, pronto.

Hector Savage

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What does this have to do with a proposed Scottish law? Is he Scottish? Living in Scotland?
I never heard of this and certainly didn't call for him to be jailed.
He's obviously a bit of a numpty looking to get a bit of attention. I don't believe Scotland have a law making being an attention seeking muppet illegal yet.

This is an example of the mindset, if this is being treated as a "hate crime", what will they use this new law as an excuse to charge people with ?
don't be so naive to think there won't be cases - just wait.

We are talking about the British police here, people who are hiding in the bushes trying to catch out people hiking in national parks during this lockdown crap

Hector Savage

Odhinn wrote: »

No mention of that in the link.

No mention of that in the link either.

Denial denial denial ...

here ya go ..

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/17629644.video-man-mocking-muslim-prayer-room-bolton-hospital-investigated-hate-crime/

Chief inspector John Charlton of GMP’s Bolton district said: “Those who think they can hide behind a keyboard and disseminate this kind of harmful material should expect to be investigated.

Meanwhile if this was mockery of christians nothing would be done - and of course rightly so, but why can't they be consistent.
Like that crowd in Ireland that were posing in front of a statue of Jesus mocking it, and that was considered progressive and liberal - again fair enough, fair play to them , but again
be consistent of your mocking, the same crowd would fawn all over Islam.

Bannasidhe

Hector Savage wrote: »

https://metro.co.uk/video/man-mocks-muslims-pretending-pray-aladdin-1921152/

Police investigated this, if this guy was slagging off any other religion it would be grand, but even "liberals" were looking for him to be jailed for this.

This is the kind of shyte that will be defined as "hate speech" ...

What does this have to do with a proposed Scottish law? Is he Scottish? Living in Scotland?
I never heard of this and certainly didn't call for him to be jailed.
He's obviously a bit of a numpty looking to get a bit of attention. I don't believe Scotland have a law making being an attention seeking muppet illegal yet.

Odhinn

Hector Savage wrote: »

https://metro.co.uk/video/man-mocks-muslims-pretending-pray-aladdin-1921152/

Police investigated this,

No mention of that in the link.

Hector Savage wrote: »

if this guy was slagging off any other religion it would be grand, but even "liberals" were looking for him to be jailed for this.

No mention of that in the link either.

Timberrrrrrrr

Hector Savage wrote: »

agenda ? which agenda ?

As i said, your post history is there for all to see, your agenda comes across VERY clearly.

Odhinn

Hector Savage wrote: »

Since you constantly defend the ideology otherwise ....

I don't defend the ideology behind it, at all. I do, however, take pains to not tar all muslims with the same brush and call out those who do. Obviously you dislike disagreeing voices, which makes you far closer to conservative Islam in attitude than myself.

Hector Savage

https://metro.co.uk/video/man-mocks-muslims-pretending-pray-aladdin-1921152/

Police investigated this, if this guy was slagging off any other religion it would be grand, but even "liberals" were looking for him to be jailed for this.

This is the kind of shyte that will be defined as "hate speech" ...

Hector Savage

Odhinn wrote: »

Back seat poping from benny -

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/ex-pope-benedict-xvi-accuses-opponents-of-wanting-to-silence-him?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1BFEm_w3Z6mzu1pWxN21MzCZsz_yyorAOcXSoMy_uV4hKR7XMthBgMfY0#Echobox=1588600194

Odhinn wrote: »

...a state ending, or at least trying to end, female genital mutilation is "good news", I would have thought. Why the "?"

Since you constantly defend the ideology otherwise ....

UNCIVIL TEXT DELETED

Odhinn

Hector Savage wrote: »

Good news ? for you really ???

...a state ending, or at least trying to end, female genital mutilation is "good news", I would have thought. Why the "?"

Pherekydes

Hector Savage wrote: »

Good news ? for you really ???

For any feeling, thinking, empathetic human being really.

Hector Savage

Odhinn wrote: »

Bit of good news -

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/01/sudan-to-outlaw-female-genital-mutilation-fgm?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2nL1ShYWsI9GP0Prv-TLuN9fXtdT9t5wJYbYlU30RIiZm_0Goa7o5ESpE#Echobox=1588346324

A start at least.

Good news ? for you really ???

Hector Savage

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

No!

This is just your claim and you are using this to fit your agenda, anyone can tell from a quick glance at your posting history exactly what agenda I am referring to.

agenda ? which agenda ?

robindch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Are you claiming the Scottish (devolved) government, parliament, and legal profession are now all so in thrall that they would consider the word 'religion' in hate crime legislation to mean Islam and Islam only?

In the strange world of the professionally-propagandized, yes - you've hit the nail on the head :rolleyes:

Odhinn wrote: »

Hector Savage wrote: »

There is "hate speech" laws in there and we all know what that means.

"we" don't.

The "we all know XXX" phrase is one of Trump's more commonly-deployed tropes - deferring to the listener to fill in the gaps while allowing the speaker to deny responsibility for whatever the speaker dreams up. It's a fairly transparent debating tactic, it has to be said.

Odhinn

Hector Savage wrote: »

There is "hate speech" laws in there and we all know what that means.

Hector Savage wrote: »

We all know it

"we" don't.

Hector Savage wrote: »

"Islamaphobia" is a made up bull**** term to silence critisism of Islam.
.............

No, it's term used to describe the attitudes of those with a deep and irrational hatred of Islam and - especially - muslims.

Bannasidhe

Hector Savage wrote: »

We all know it will be used to stop any criticism of Islam - who defines it btw ?

Who gets to define this "hate speech" ?

The legislators write the Bill.
The Parliament votes on the Bill.
If passed it is enacted.
Then it is up to the Courts to interpret it.

Same as every, single, other, piece of legislation.

Are you claiming the Scottish (devolved) government, parliament, and legal profession are now all so in thrall that they would consider the word 'religion' in hate crime legislation to mean Islam and Islam only?

Timberrrrrrrr

Hector Savage wrote: »

We all know it will be used to stop any criticism of Islam - who defines it btw ?

Who gets to define this "hate speech" ?

No!

This is just your claim and you are using this to fit your agenda, anyone can tell from a quick glance at your posting history exactly what agenda I am referring to.

Hector Savage

We all know it will be used to stop any criticism of Islam - who defines it btw ?

Who gets to define this "hate speech" ?

Bannasidhe

Hector Savage wrote: »

There is "hate speech" laws in there and we all know what that means.
Who defines the hate ?
Here is the Scottish justice minister

https://twitter.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1257348838521802752?s=20

"Islamaphobia" is a made up bull**** term to silence critisism of Islam.
On one hand it says it gets rid of blasphemy sure - for all other religions, except that special one which no one can say anything negative about.

Ah, I see.

The SNP have introduced a bill to remove 'blasphemy' form the statue books but will have 'hate crime' legislation which according to the Scottish Justice Minister

Justice minister Humza Yousaf said the law would be modernised and also cover discrimination against age, disability, race, religion and sexual orientation.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/24/blasphemy-to-be-decriminalised-in-scottish-hate-bill

You have extrapolated this to mean it's a law that places the religion of Islam off limits and your proof is a tweet referencing a vocal anti-Scottish independence/SNP person or other.

You do realise the same law would protect... oh...let's say Catholics from discrimination in areas that are Orange in terms of religion/politics,like parts of Glasgow?

It does not say you cannot criticise a religion - it says you cannot get your hat and sash on and start hating on someone because they are of a particular religion.

Hector Savage

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Have you a link for that?

All I can find says a bill has been introduced to decriminalise blasphemy..

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/24/blasphemy-to-be-decriminalised-in-scottish-hate-bill

There is "hate speech" laws in there and we all know what that means.
Who defines the hate ?
Here is the Scottish justice minister

https://twitter.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1257348838521802752?s=20

"Islamaphobia" is a made up bull**** term to silence critisism of Islam.
On one hand it says it gets rid of blasphemy sure - for all other religions, except that special one which no one can say anything negative about.

Bannasidhe

Hector Savage wrote: »

So I see Scotland has reintroduced blasphemy laws - frightening ...

Have you a link for that?

All I can find says a bill has been introduced to decriminalise blasphemy..

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/24/blasphemy-to-be-decriminalised-in-scottish-hate-bill

Hector Savage

So I see Scotland has reintroduced blasphemy laws - frightening ...

Odhinn

Back seat poping from benny -

The former pope Benedict XVI has accused opponents of wanting to silence him, while associating gay marriage with the Antichrist and attacking humanist ideologies in an authorised biography published in Germany.
The 93-year-old, whose original name is Joseph Ratzinger, said in Benedict XVI – A Life he had fallen victim to a “malignant distortion of reality” in reactions to his interventions in theological debates.
He said: “The spectacle of reactions coming from German theology is so misguided and ill-willed that I would prefer not to speak of it.”
The former pope, who dramatically resigned in 2013, was especially criticised for a 2018 text that was considered critical of the Jewish faith. “I would rather not analyse the actual reasons why people want to silence my voice,” Benedict said in the book.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/ex-pope-benedict-xvi-accuses-opponents-of-wanting-to-silence-him?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1BFEm_w3Z6mzu1pWxN21MzCZsz_yyorAOcXSoMy_uV4hKR7XMthBgMfY0#Echobox=1588600194

Odhinn

Gobshite removed from his platform. Not that that will stop him

Facebook has taken down the official page of conspiracy theorist David Icke for publishing "health misinformation that could cause physical harm".
Mr Icke has made several false claims about coronavirus, such as suggesting 5G mobile phone networks are linked to the spread of the virus.
In one video, he suggested a Jewish group was behind the virus.
Following the ban, his Twitter account posted: "Fascist Facebook deletes David Icke - the elite are TERRIFIED."
Facebook said in a statement: "We have removed this Page for repeatedly violating our policies on harmful misinformation''.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52501453