Unlearning what our society has taught us.

robinbird · 02-05-2020 01:53AM

NIMAN wrote: »

Well we are being told to be less socialable.

It was one great trait of us Irish.

1874 wrote: »

That we are unsociable, I agree. (I dont think thats what you mean though).

The idea that we are actually sociable is in my opinion at best a myth

NIMAN wrote: »

I think we are.

It's only when you travel and meet other nationalities do you discover how socialable us Irish actually are.

1874 wrote: »

You mean sociable, as in friendly or do you mean you realise how we aren't?

I have traveled and I have found some nationalities to be friendly and imo insincere, and others to be sociable and sincere, a lot of people are just out for themselves and what they can get and I think that includes Irish people. I think that used to be a lot to do with peoples individual circumstances, but now, I think Social media has a massive influence on how people behave. I think my experience growing up (in Ireland) prepared me for a variety of scenarios of how people might act.

Certain nationalities, or groups I found to be downright haughty, others seemingly blunt but reasonable/decent.
People can be sociable but mean nothing, Irish people can be friendly, but imo many can be quite shallow and self centred.

We are sociable but I think the superficial false friendliness of the irish is overrated. We are one of the most insincere cultures. I prefer bluntness to a knife in the back which seems to be the irish way.

whisky_galore · 02-05-2020 08:05AM

The notion that you have to have to live a certain way; borrow money, build the new house, drive the identikit SUV.

Worrying about what others think of you.

storker · 02-05-2020 11:39AM

da_miser wrote: »

So the best for your children was a catholic school, interesting!

Indeed. The interesting aspects to us were its location, its reputation and its results, not that it was catholic. In fact, given my experience of catholic education I'd say the school is a good one despite its catholic ethos and not because of it.

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debok · 02-05-2020 11:52AM

da_miser wrote: »

Is this the same Christopher Hitchens who said Christianity is needed to save Europe from Islam?
Surely no religion would be a better defence if his early anti religion warpath was to be believed?

All your replies to everyone seem to be trying to have a battle with them. Why. They man didn't believe in any religion. You can take any person in the world and give examples of a quote to suit your own narrative. Islam Catholic it's all bull**** . Go back now read the context of the quote and don't pretend to be offended on the behalf of Islam.

debok · 02-05-2020 11:54AM

da_miser wrote: »

So the best for your children was a catholic school, interesting!

Just because you add interesting to end of your post doesn't make your cleverer

ChelseaRentBoy · 02-05-2020 11:58AM

robinbird wrote: »

We are sociable but I think the superficial false friendliness of the irish is overrated. We are one of the most insincere cultures. I prefer bluntness to a knife in the back which seems to be the irish way.

I think we are friendly up to a point but yeah it really annoys me the way we as a people constantly pat ourselves on the back about how great we supposedly are.

debok · 02-05-2020 12:00PM

da_miser wrote: »

Is this the same Christopher Hitchens who said Christianity is needed to save Europe from Islam?
Surely no religion would be a better defence if his early anti religion warpath was to be believed?

Could provide link to that quote sorry I can't find it.
Not doubting ya just want to check the context. You seem to be one of those "so what your saying is" type of posters who infer things from comments to suit your own narrative

Kraft.l · 03-05-2020 01:08AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ahh well, I remember being told that the only reason for marriage was to produce children. Love wasn't a factor. Not even slightly. Without children being born, a couple had failed in their marriage...

That's sad.

Jim2007 · 03-05-2020 02:27AM

da_miser wrote: »

So the best for your children was a catholic school, interesting!

You live in a part of the world that is predominantly Christian in ethos and fail to appreciate that whether kids go to a state school or one run by a religious order, the ethos will be Christian and it is the same all over Europe. Interesting you have such a limited view!

Purple Mountain · 03-05-2020 02:31AM

debok wrote: »

You must be on same buzz as me tonight. Been watching Christopher hitchens debates and clips on YouTube. What annoys me is that people still bringing their children to make their communion and confirmation even though it means nothing to them except a few quid on the day. Fair enough if they have faith but it's the people who have no faith and then drag their children into it that are keeping the Catholic church going in this country.

I think you'd like the book 'The God Delusion.'

da_miser · 03-05-2020 10:45AM

debok wrote: »

All your replies to everyone seem to be trying to have a battle with them. Why. They man didn't believe in any religion. You can take any person in the world and give examples of a quote to suit your own narrative. Islam Catholic it's all bull**** . Go back now read the context of the quote and don't pretend to be offended on the behalf of Islam.

Would appear i struck a nerve?
Where did i pretend to be offended on the behalf of Islam?

da_miser · 03-05-2020 10:46AM

debok wrote: »

Just because you add interesting to end of your post doesn't make your cleverer

The way you have interpreted my post, Fascinating!

da_miser · 03-05-2020 10:49AM

storker wrote: »

Indeed. The interesting aspects to us were its location, its reputation and its results, not that it was catholic. In fact, given my experience of catholic education I'd say the school is a good one despite its catholic ethos and not because of it.

.

Despite the most obvious reason that it a good school, that it been a Catholic run school, you refuse to see the forrest for the trees, Fascinating!

s1ippy · 03-05-2020 10:52AM

Some of the whinging snivellers in here would want to learn less belligerence, definitely something I've gotten better at down through the years.

Leaving cert English teacher insisted we do the debate question. I stopped doing any sort of creative writing as a young adult and I've only resumed again recently after a regrettable hiatus because of getting involved with my local Fighting Words workshop. Doing the debate question meant that I got more emotionally charged about issues that mattered to me and I felt passionate about them, which was good. But it was a shame I didn't keep up the fiction because it's a very healthy outlet.

Recently I've realised that there is very little worth getting worked up about and my problems are laughable compared to what some people are going through.

the beer revolu · 03-05-2020 11:02AM

storker wrote: »

Mine go to a secondary school that has a catholic (with a small "c") ethos, so some times I Let the odd comment slip but otherwise I'm not going to try to indoctrinate them. I suspect that they already have doubts or at least see some holes in the story especially since religion class for them now includes all religions, which I think is likely to prompt questioning.

I'm sorry, but I don't get this.
You don’t want to "indoctrinate" with your beliefs, yet you are having them indoctrinated by Catholic beliefs.
I'm genuinely confused by this and I see it all the time. People saying the like of not wanting to enforce their atheist views as the kids can make up their own mind later - all the while being raised in a religion.

Paulownia · 03-05-2020 11:08AM

I’m not catholic but I think that society has lost something with turning away from the church. The baby has been thrown out with the bath water.
People today are less concerned about the welfare of others and more concerned with what they themselves want. It’s all right to be inconsiderate, steal what you want injure others etc
Social media has changed us as well, people do not communicate with others as they used and they often need drink on board to have face to face interaction

da_miser · 03-05-2020 11:11AM

the beer revolu wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I don't get this.
You don’t want to "indoctrinate" with your beliefs, yet you are having them indoctrinated by Catholic beliefs.
I'm genuinely confused by this and I see it all the time. People saying the like of not wanting to enforce their atheist views as the kids can make up their own mind later - all the while being raised in a religion.

Simple answer, they don't believe what they are preaching, but its cool and hip to be anti religion, especially anti Christian, it will win some internet thumbs up so they go along with it.

storker · 03-05-2020 11:24AM

the beer revolu wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I don't get this.
You don’t want to "indoctrinate" with your beliefs, yet you are having them indoctrinated by Catholic beliefs.
I'm genuinely confused by this and I see it all the time. People saying the like of not wanting to enforce their atheist views as the kids can make up their own mind later - all the while being raised in a religion.

They're being taught about Catholism and all other religions, so they're not just being exposed to exclusively Catholic teachings. There's a difference to being raised in a religion and simply being taught about it. They're also learning about science and evolution, so they're being exposed to a lot of different ideas. Religion is less than 10% of what their learning; the other 90% concerns me a lot more. I'm happy that they're inquisitive enough and smart enough to make up their own minds about things, and they have sufficient self-esteem (and not a little stubbornness) to prevent them from being successfully told what to think - by anyone.

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storker · 03-05-2020 11:26AM

da_miser wrote: »

Simple answer, they don't believe what they are preaching, but its cool and hip to be anti religion, especially anti Christian, it will win some internet thumbs up so they go along with it.

Wrong, wrong and wrong. You need to do a lot more work on your mind-melding ability. :rolleyes:

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storker · 03-05-2020 11:31AM

da_miser wrote: »

Despite the most obvious reason that it a good school, that it been a Catholic run school, you refuse to see the forrest for the trees, Fascinating!

What's more interesting is your inability to separate the school's overall quality of education from its Catholic origins. There have been very badly-run Catholic schools too, including those where pupils were savagely abused - are you happy for Catholicism to take the credit for that too?

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The Tetrarch · 03-05-2020 11:34AM

I was found under a cabbage.
Good grades will get you a good permanent, pensionable job.
Work hard and you will get ahead.
Believing what a financial institution/its staff say.

Buy a house now or prices will keep rising and you will never be able to one.

the beer revolu · 03-05-2020 11:59AM

storker wrote: »

They're being taught about Catholism and all other religions, so they're not just being exposed to exclusively Catholic teachings. There's a difference to being raised in a religion and simply being taught about it. They're also learning about science and evolution, so they're being exposed to a lot of different ideas. Religion is less than 10% of what their learning; the other 90% concerns me a lot more. I'm happy that they're inquisitive enough and smart enough to make up their own minds about things, and they have sufficient self-esteem (and not a little stubbornness) to prevent them from being successfully told what to think - by anyone.

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Still confused.
They aren't just taught about religion, they are members of the Catholic Church and participate in its sacraments. What ever way you dress it up, you chose for your children to be brought up in the Catholic faith.
I don't understand why an atheist would do this.

the beer revolu · 03-05-2020 12:01PM

da_miser wrote: »

Simple answer, they don't believe what they are preaching, but its cool and hip to be anti religion, especially anti Christian, it will win some internet thumbs up so they go along with it.

Are your beliefs formed so as to impress others?
If not, why do you assume that others are?

the beer revolu · 03-05-2020 12:04PM

da_miser wrote: »

Despite the most obvious reason that it a good school, that it been a Catholic run school, you refuse to see the forrest for the trees, Fascinating!

So, you don't know what school is in question, yet you know what it is that makes it a good school?
That's as fcuking bonkers as your inability to write English.

storker · 03-05-2020 12:14PM

the beer revolu wrote: »

Still confused.
They aren't just taught about religion, they are members of the Catholic Church and participate in its sacraments. What ever way you dress it up, you chose for your children to be brought up in the Catholic faith.
I don't understand why an atheist would do this.

Well, I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. I'm just not that militant about my atheism, especially when I don't see the religion that they are exposed to doing any harm. My wife and I were brought up immersed in catholicism to much greater degree, and we still ended up going our own way. I have enough confidence in my kids' intelligence that they will do the same, if they haven'y done so already. And (again :rolleyes:) they're not brought up in the catholic faith - there are no prayers at home, they don't go to mass, except sometimes with their grandmother, their parents are even rarer attenders - they just learn about it and other religions at school. Big difference.

Atheism isn't a religion, by the way; there is no set catechism of required beliefs, opinions and actions, even though some atheists do act as if there is.

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the beer revolu · 03-05-2020 12:33PM

storker wrote: »

Well, I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. I'm just not that militant about my atheism, especially when I don't see the religion that they are exposed to doing any harm. My wife and I were brought up immersed in catholicism to much greater degree, and we still ended up going our own way. I have enough confidence in my kids' intelligence that they will do the same, if they haven'y done so already. And (again :rolleyes:) they're not brought up in the catholic faith - there are no prayers at home, they don't go to mass, except sometimes with their grandmother, their parents are even rarer attenders - they just learn about it and other religions at school. Big difference.

Atheism isn't a religion, by the way; there is no set catechism of required beliefs, opinions and actions, even though some atheists do act as if there is.

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We're going nowhere here, I reckon.
Just one question, which I alluded to before.

Why do you not want to indoctrinate them with your beliefs?
And following from that, why is it OK for them to be indoctrinated with Catholic beliefs?

Say what you want but babtised children who have made/will make their communion and confirmation and who sometimes go to mass are brought up in the Catholic faith. How can you say otherwise?

03-05-2020 12:41PM

the beer revolu wrote: »

Say what you want but babtised children who have made/will make their communion and confirmation and who sometimes go to mass are brought up in the Catholic faith. How can you say otherwise?

There's a hole in your logic. The attendance of communion, confirmation, and some masses, is often due to social concerns. Their friends are attending, and so the kids want to go. There's no automatic association between attending, and belief.

If they were being brought up in the Catholic Faith, then their parents would be involved, along with whatever focus within the schools.... but even when I went to Catholic schools, the use of prayers in classes were declining rapidly (30 odd years ago). Some schools do it, many don't. In most cases, the encouragement to become part of the faith has to be reinforced by the parents/relations. Sometimes, a child might have their own driving interest to learn but that's going to be rare, especially in this modern world of ours.

storker · 03-05-2020 12:50PM

the beer revolu wrote: »

We're going nowhere here, I reckon.

I agree.

Why do you not want to indoctrinate them with your beliefs?

I'm happy for them to form their own opinions.

And following from that, why is it OK for them to be indoctrinated with Catholic beliefs?

I don't believe they're being indoctrinated. Alternatives are being presented to the set of catholic beliefs, and there's more to indoctrination than just teaching someone about something. And just two religious ceremonies in a childhood that are seen as much as rites of passage as expressions of belief don't alter that.

Say what you want but babtised children who have made/will make their communion and confirmation and who sometimes go to mass are brought up in the Catholic faith. How can you say otherwise?

See above and previous posts. You seem to be saying that any religious education is that same as indoctrination. I think that's a false dichotomy, I see it as a sliding scale that has "make no reference to religion" at one end and "teach only catholicism and lots of it" at the other, and there are positions that lie between the two.

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the beer revolu · 03-05-2020 12:51PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There's a hole in your logic. The attendance of communion, confirmation, and some masses, is often due to social concerns. Their friends are attending, and so the kids want to go. There's no automatic association between attending, and belief.

If they were being brought up in the Catholic Faith, then their parents would be involved, along with whatever focus within the schools.... but even when I went to Catholic schools, the use of prayers in classes were declining rapidly (30 odd years ago). Some schools do it, many don't. In most cases, the encouragement to become part of the faith has to be reinforced by the parents/relations. Sometimes, a child might have their own driving interest to learn but that's going to be rare, especially in this modern world of ours.

I wonder if the children of non practising Muslims, Jews and Buddhists, in Catholic schools casually get baptised, make their communion, get confirmed and go to mass, all while being "not brought up in the Catholic faith"?
Somehow, I doubt it.

Junkyard Tom · 03-05-2020 12:55PM

'Jaws' isn't the name of the shark.

Unlearning what our society has taught us.

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