Unlearning what our society has taught us.

Kraft.l

Hello, what things do people feel they've had to unlearn in Irish society that they've
been taught from a young age and they're more happier because of it?

Your Face

Don't trust anyone.

NIMAN

Well we are being told to be less socialable.

It was one great trait of us Irish.

1874

NIMAN wrote: »

Well we are being told to be less socialable.

It was one great trait of us Irish.

That we are unsociable, I agree. (I dont think thats what you mean though).

The idea that we are actually sociable is in my opinion at best a myth

NIMAN

1874 wrote: »

That we are unsociable, I agree. (I dont think thats what you mean though).

The idea that we are actually sociable is in my opinion at best a myth

I think we are.

It's only when you travel and meet other nationalities do you discover how socialable us Irish actually are.

mulbot

Not to question authority. Its an absolute must that you do

Wanderer2010

The concept of having to worship the Catholic Church and follow the bible to the letter of the law, lest I burn in eternal damnation. Im so glad I kicked that ridiculous mantra to the floor. The older I get, the more I realise that no religion has all the answers and that we are divine beings who have existed forever, and are here for just a brief period before we evolve on to the next stage of our spiritual development.

The concept of a God who creates billions of people and expects each and every one of them to 100% obey a text created 2000+ years ago is ludicrous, when seen with enlightened eyes.

debok

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

The concept of having to worship the Catholic Church and follow the bible to the letter of the law, lest I burn in eternal damnation. Im so glad I kicked that ridiculous mantra to the floor. The older I get, the more I realise that no religion has all the answers and that we are divine beings who have existed forever, and are here for just a brief period before we evolve on to the next stage of our spiritual development.

The concept of a God who creates billions of people and expects each and every one of them to 100% obey a text created 2000+ years ago is ludicrous, when seen with enlightened eyes.

You must be on same buzz as me tonight. Been watching Christopher hitchens debates and clips on YouTube. What annoys me is that people still bringing their children to make their communion and confirmation even though it means nothing to them except a few quid on the day. Fair enough if they have faith but it's the people who have no faith and then drag their children into it that are keeping the Catholic church going in this country.

storker

debok wrote: »

You must be on same buzz as me tonight. Been watching Christopher hitchens debates and clips on YouTube. What annoys me is that people still bringing their children to make their communion and confirmation even though it means nothing to them except a few quid on the day. Fair enough if they have faith but it's the people who have no faith and then drag their children into it that are keeping the Catholic church going in this country.

Hitchens is always great to watch/listen to. I mean was but still is thanks to YouTube.

I'm one of those who let my kids go through the ceremonies even though I'm an atheist. Their mother isn't devout by any means but still has some belief, and there was also their grandparents, to whom it meant a lot, so we did communions and confirmations. I wasn't prepared to deprive the grandparents and kids and ride roughshod over their feelings just for the sake of being true to my own opinion.

Among the things we talk to them about is how to think for themselves and critically evaluate the things the read, see and hear. They're smart kids; they'll figure it out eventually and if they don't I won't force it on them.

I don't feel bad about helping them believe in Santa Claus either.

NIMAN

Once they are past the Santa phase, they will be getting plenty of anti-CC stuff from me!

Delirah

The Catholic Church is all knowing and always correct.

It is best to sweep things under the carpet and not talk about anything

Boys are bad

storker

NIMAN wrote: »

Once they are past the Santa phase, they will be getting plenty of anti-CC stuff from me!

Mine go to a secondary school that has a catholic (with a small "c") ethos, so some times I Let the odd comment slip but otherwise I'm not going to try to indoctrinate them. I suspect that they already have doubts or at least see some holes in the story especially since religion class for them now includes all religions, which I think is likely to prompt questioning.

khaldrogo

Kraft.l wrote: »

Hello, what things do people feel they've had to unlearn in Irish society that they've
been taught from a young age and they're more happier because of it?

Everything religious.....

Well, the things I was taught, but learned later were BS:


Original sin, or the idea that we should feel guilt over "something".

That masturbation was unhealthy or "wrong".

National Inferiority complex.

That all older people automatically should be respected, because they were more experienced/knowledgeable.

That conforming to social norms was the only realistic option.

That getting drunk or getting laid were the only measurements of a good night out (later, I realised that getting laid was something most people talked about but extremely few got. Big noises, little substance)

That you were somehow less because you weren't sporty / interested in GAA while a teen or early 20s.

That women are innocent of being nasty, violent, etc. Only men behave that way. Any woman who does the same, is an extreme minority. Absolute horse****, of course.

1874

NIMAN wrote: »

I think we are.

It's only when you travel and meet other nationalities do you discover how socialable us Irish actually are.

You mean sociable, as in friendly or do you mean you realise how we aren't?

I have traveled and I have found some nationalities to be friendly and imo insincere, and others to be sociable and sincere, a lot of people are just out for themselves and what they can get and I think that includes Irish people. I think that used to be a lot to do with peoples individual circumstances, but now, I think Social media has a massive influence on how people behave. I think my experience growing up (in Ireland) prepared me for a variety of scenarios of how people might act.

Certain nationalities, or groups I found to be downright haughty, others seemingly blunt but reasonable/decent.
People can be sociable but mean nothing, Irish people can be friendly, but imo many can be quite shallow and self centred.

Edgware

NIMAN wrote: »

Once they are past the Santa phase, they will be getting plenty of anti-CC stuff from me!

Typical hypocrite
Use any system while it suits.

1874

1874 wrote: »

You mean sociable, as in friendly or do you mean you realise how we aren't?
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Agreed. I'd say that Irish people are generally more direct, which translates into a greater degree of honesty. TBH while abroad, I don't hang out with many Irish people. I find the majority are still far too focused on drinking and getting wasted, which tends to attract some kind of dangerous/dodgy activities.

I'd say that Irish expats tend to be more sociable and helpful to others. Not everyone, mind... I'm not very sociable myself, and I've Irish friends who would be similar, still we rise to the occasion when it's needed. Although I do think there's a certain reserve with most older Irish people (30+). I'd often see Italians, Spanish etc, doing all manner of "stupid" activities for fun, while the Irish would stand back and mutter about the retards. Good humored, but there's still a certain reserve about some behaviors.

storker

Deleted User wrote: »

Original sin, or the idea that we should feel guilt over "something".

That masturbation was unhealthy or "wrong".

I remember one day in primary school the head brother had the class because the teacher was out, and at some point he said "...a man and woman get married and go off and commit mortal sin together...". In my then-innocent mind I imagined the newlyweds donning balaclavas and going into a bank to rob it. It just didn't make sense to me, but I think when you're a kid you have a sixth sense for which things to pursue and which to leave alone.

Years later when I remembered that episode and realised what he really meant, I wonder how fcuked-up would someone have to be to believe such a thing and how fcuked-up would the society have to be that thought them to think like that.




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Ahh well, I remember being told that the only reason for marriage was to produce children. Love wasn't a factor. Not even slightly. Without children being born, a couple had failed in their marriage...

s1ippy

Didn't ye listen to Joe Duffy yesterday?

Those pious f*ck wits are still living it large.

Class MayDresser

mulbot wrote: »

Not to question authority. Its an absolute must that you do

Is it ****. The state of what's being slung up these days no respect or humility, its their worth to society should be questioned, far more than authorities (outside of political, if its political you mean, pardon the rant).

Banana Republic.

Don’t need to get a so hammered to have a great time with your friends and weekends aren’t for recovering from hangovers. Pubs are the least important things in our lives in terms of list of priorities. Nobody should accept a p*** poor toilet anymore. Don’t get me wrong a pint be lovely but it ranks as fairly lower of things I miss.

storker

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh well, I remember being told that the only reason for marriage was to produce children. Love wasn't a factor. Not even slightly. Without children being born, a couple had failed in their marriage...

"We will abolish the orgasm. There is no loyalty except loyalty to the party. There is no love except love of Big Brother."



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1874

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed. I'd say that Irish people are generally more direct, which translates into a greater degree of honesty. TBH while abroad, I don't hang out with many Irish people. I find the majority are still far too focused on drinking and getting wasted, which tends to attract some kind of dangerous/dodgy activities.

I'd say that Irish expats tend to be more sociable and helpful to others. Not everyone, mind... I'm not very sociable myself, and I've Irish friends who would be similar, still we rise to the occasion when it's needed. Although I do think there's a certain reserve with most older Irish people (30+). I'd often see Italians, Spanish etc, doing all manner of "stupid" activities for fun, while the Irish would stand back and mutter about the retards. Good humored, but there's still a certain reserve about some behaviors.

I know this thread is about something else, but I dont think we agree at all on that bit. Id say Irish people can usually not be direct, which imo translates to a greater degree of not being honest.
I agree people seem to be too focused on getting wasted, but Im not 100% sure if thats still applicable to age groups, many seem to revolve around it, I went through a phase of drinking myself when I was younger (but still only started as a young adult, about 17) as it was the done thing and I didnt know any better. Its possible Irish expats are as you say (and it seems reasonable to think they are), I have travelled abroad, but I havent lived abroad, which is different.
Id say Ive been told of Continentals that would look at Irish people as you described Italians/Spanish, maybe that is/was an age group thing too. Ive heard Italians/Spanish/Continentals can be more reserved, seem less friendly to people they dont know because there is no reason, over Irish people who would talk to anyone, but usually when pissed, that might be a failing on their part or ours or both.
Maybe its an age thing? or specific to a social group, can be very clique-ish here I think.

Mrs OBumble

It's bad to be bold.

da_miser

Women are not made of sugar and spice and all things nice

da_miser

debok wrote: »

You must be on same buzz as me tonight. Been watching Christopher hitchens debates and clips on YouTube. What annoys me is that people still bringing their children to make their communion and confirmation even though it means nothing to them except a few quid on the day. Fair enough if they have faith but it's the people who have no faith and then drag their children into it that are keeping the Catholic church going in this country.

Is this the same Christopher Hitchens who said Christianity is needed to save Europe from Islam?
Surely no religion would be a better defence if his early anti religion warpath was to be believed?

da_miser

storker wrote: »

Mine go to a secondary school that has a catholic (with a small "c") ethos, so some times I Let the odd comment slip but otherwise I'm not going to try to indoctrinate them. I suspect that they already have doubts or at least see some holes in the story especially since religion class for them now includes all religions, which I think is likely to prompt questioning.

So you dont trust the education of your children to a Non catholic school? Interesting!

storker

da_miser wrote: »

So you dont trust the education of your children to a Non catholic school? Interesting!

I didn't say that. The school we preferred happens to be a catholic school.

da_miser

storker wrote: »

I didn't say that. The school we preferred happens to be a catholic school.

So the best for your children was a catholic school, interesting!

sabat

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

The older I get, the more I realise that...

...we are divine beings who have existed forever, and are here for just a brief period before we evolve on to the next stage of our spiritual development.

You didn't "realise" this- it's a form of delusion caused by overexposure to marketing and advertising, shallow misinterpretation of oriental religions and (I'm guessing) drug use.

robinbird

NIMAN wrote: »

Well we are being told to be less socialable.

It was one great trait of us Irish.

1874 wrote: »

That we are unsociable, I agree. (I dont think thats what you mean though).

The idea that we are actually sociable is in my opinion at best a myth

NIMAN wrote: »

I think we are.

It's only when you travel and meet other nationalities do you discover how socialable us Irish actually are.

1874 wrote: »

You mean sociable, as in friendly or do you mean you realise how we aren't?

I have traveled and I have found some nationalities to be friendly and imo insincere, and others to be sociable and sincere, a lot of people are just out for themselves and what they can get and I think that includes Irish people. I think that used to be a lot to do with peoples individual circumstances, but now, I think Social media has a massive influence on how people behave. I think my experience growing up (in Ireland) prepared me for a variety of scenarios of how people might act.

Certain nationalities, or groups I found to be downright haughty, others seemingly blunt but reasonable/decent.
People can be sociable but mean nothing, Irish people can be friendly, but imo many can be quite shallow and self centred.

We are sociable but I think the superficial false friendliness of the irish is overrated. We are one of the most insincere cultures. I prefer bluntness to a knife in the back which seems to be the irish way.

whisky_galore

The notion that you have to have to live a certain way; borrow money, build the new house, drive the identikit SUV.

Worrying about what others think of you.

storker

da_miser wrote: »

So the best for your children was a catholic school, interesting!

Indeed. The interesting aspects to us were its location, its reputation and its results, not that it was catholic. In fact, given my experience of catholic education I'd say the school is a good one despite its catholic ethos and not because of it.



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debok

da_miser wrote: »

Is this the same Christopher Hitchens who said Christianity is needed to save Europe from Islam?
Surely no religion would be a better defence if his early anti religion warpath was to be believed?

All your replies to everyone seem to be trying to have a battle with them. Why. They man didn't believe in any religion. You can take any person in the world and give examples of a quote to suit your own narrative. Islam Catholic it's all bull**** . Go back now read the context of the quote and don't pretend to be offended on the behalf of Islam.

debok

da_miser wrote: »

So the best for your children was a catholic school, interesting!

Just because you add interesting to end of your post doesn't make your cleverer

ChelseaRentBoy

robinbird wrote: »

We are sociable but I think the superficial false friendliness of the irish is overrated. We are one of the most insincere cultures. I prefer bluntness to a knife in the back which seems to be the irish way.

I think we are friendly up to a point but yeah it really annoys me the way we as a people constantly pat ourselves on the back about how great we supposedly are.

debok

da_miser wrote: »

Is this the same Christopher Hitchens who said Christianity is needed to save Europe from Islam?
Surely no religion would be a better defence if his early anti religion warpath was to be believed?

Could provide link to that quote sorry I can't find it.
Not doubting ya just want to check the context. You seem to be one of those "so what your saying is" type of posters who infer things from comments to suit your own narrative

Kraft.l

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ahh well, I remember being told that the only reason for marriage was to produce children. Love wasn't a factor. Not even slightly. Without children being born, a couple had failed in their marriage...

That's sad.

Jim2007

da_miser wrote: »

So the best for your children was a catholic school, interesting!

You live in a part of the world that is predominantly Christian in ethos and fail to appreciate that whether kids go to a state school or one run by a religious order, the ethos will be Christian and it is the same all over Europe. Interesting you have such a limited view!

Purple Mountain

debok wrote: »

You must be on same buzz as me tonight. Been watching Christopher hitchens debates and clips on YouTube. What annoys me is that people still bringing their children to make their communion and confirmation even though it means nothing to them except a few quid on the day. Fair enough if they have faith but it's the people who have no faith and then drag their children into it that are keeping the Catholic church going in this country.

I think you'd like the book 'The God Delusion.'

da_miser

debok wrote: »

All your replies to everyone seem to be trying to have a battle with them. Why. They man didn't believe in any religion. You can take any person in the world and give examples of a quote to suit your own narrative. Islam Catholic it's all bull**** . Go back now read the context of the quote and don't pretend to be offended on the behalf of Islam.

Would appear i struck a nerve?
Where did i pretend to be offended on the behalf of Islam?

da_miser

debok wrote: »

Just because you add interesting to end of your post doesn't make your cleverer

The way you have interpreted my post, Fascinating!

da_miser

storker wrote: »

Indeed. The interesting aspects to us were its location, its reputation and its results, not that it was catholic. In fact, given my experience of catholic education I'd say the school is a good one despite its catholic ethos and not because of it.



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Despite the most obvious reason that it a good school, that it been a Catholic run school, you refuse to see the forrest for the trees, Fascinating!

s1ippy

Some of the whinging snivellers in here would want to learn less belligerence, definitely something I've gotten better at down through the years.

Leaving cert English teacher insisted we do the debate question. I stopped doing any sort of creative writing as a young adult and I've only resumed again recently after a regrettable hiatus because of getting involved with my local Fighting Words workshop. Doing the debate question meant that I got more emotionally charged about issues that mattered to me and I felt passionate about them, which was good. But it was a shame I didn't keep up the fiction because it's a very healthy outlet.

Recently I've realised that there is very little worth getting worked up about and my problems are laughable compared to what some people are going through.

the beer revolu

storker wrote: »

Mine go to a secondary school that has a catholic (with a small "c") ethos, so some times I Let the odd comment slip but otherwise I'm not going to try to indoctrinate them. I suspect that they already have doubts or at least see some holes in the story especially since religion class for them now includes all religions, which I think is likely to prompt questioning.

I'm sorry, but I don't get this.
You don’t want to "indoctrinate" with your beliefs, yet you are having them indoctrinated by Catholic beliefs.
I'm genuinely confused by this and I see it all the time. People saying the like of not wanting to enforce their atheist views as the kids can make up their own mind later - all the while being raised in a religion.

Paulownia

I’m not catholic but I think that society has lost something with turning away from the church. The baby has been thrown out with the bath water.
People today are less concerned about the welfare of others and more concerned with what they themselves want. It’s all right to be inconsiderate, steal what you want injure others etc
Social media has changed us as well, people do not communicate with others as they used and they often need drink on board to have face to face interaction

da_miser

the beer revolu wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I don't get this.
You don’t want to "indoctrinate" with your beliefs, yet you are having them indoctrinated by Catholic beliefs.
I'm genuinely confused by this and I see it all the time. People saying the like of not wanting to enforce their atheist views as the kids can make up their own mind later - all the while being raised in a religion.

Simple answer, they don't believe what they are preaching, but its cool and hip to be anti religion, especially anti Christian, it will win some internet thumbs up so they go along with it.

storker

the beer revolu wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I don't get this.
You don’t want to "indoctrinate" with your beliefs, yet you are having them indoctrinated by Catholic beliefs.
I'm genuinely confused by this and I see it all the time. People saying the like of not wanting to enforce their atheist views as the kids can make up their own mind later - all the while being raised in a religion.

They're being taught about Catholism and all other religions, so they're not just being exposed to exclusively Catholic teachings. There's a difference to being raised in a religion and simply being taught about it. They're also learning about science and evolution, so they're being exposed to a lot of different ideas. Religion is less than 10% of what their learning; the other 90% concerns me a lot more. I'm happy that they're inquisitive enough and smart enough to make up their own minds about things, and they have sufficient self-esteem (and not a little stubbornness) to prevent them from being successfully told what to think - by anyone.



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storker

da_miser wrote: »

Simple answer, they don't believe what they are preaching, but its cool and hip to be anti religion, especially anti Christian, it will win some internet thumbs up so they go along with it.

Wrong, wrong and wrong. You need to do a lot more work on your mind-melding ability. :rolleyes:



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storker

da_miser wrote: »

Despite the most obvious reason that it a good school, that it been a Catholic run school, you refuse to see the forrest for the trees, Fascinating!

What's more interesting is your inability to separate the school's overall quality of education from its Catholic origins. There have been very badly-run Catholic schools too, including those where pupils were savagely abused - are you happy for Catholicism to take the credit for that too?


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