The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

bob mcbob · 01-05-2020 12:21PM

Another interesting article from the Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/01/why-can-i-visit-a-diy-shop-but-not-a-museum-this-total-lockdown-is-failing

This point particularly struck me -

As the Swedish scientists point out, this is a peculiar virus in that its overwhelming – though not most publicised – impact is in exacerbating existing illnesses in old people. This is 80-90% of deaths. Many are already “locked down” in care homes and hospitals. It would therefore make sense to direct all energy at protecting and trying to cure them. Yet while Britain was playing at The Handmaid’s Tale, it was leaving care homes to look after themselves, to an appalling extent in those known to me.

I agree with this but for discussion - what is the point of mobilising the state to stop young people, getting some sun in a park (while obeying social distancing rules) but leave the most vulnerable to essentially look after themselves.

GazzaL · 01-05-2020 12:36PM

Boris Johnson, whatever your views on him as a person or his politics, is someone who has come through a bad dose of the Coronavirus and has more positivity and pragmatism than all of our Government/HSE/NPHET combined:
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-pm-says-plans-to-ease-lockdown-will-be-revealed-next-week-11981492

Tandey · 01-05-2020 12:38PM

GazzaL wrote: »

Boris Johnson, whatever your views on him as a person or his politics, is someone who has come through a bad dose of the Coronavirus and has more positivity and pragmatism than all of our Government/HSE/NPHET combined:
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-pm-says-plans-to-ease-lockdown-will-be-revealed-next-week-11981492

Caught the virus because he didn’t practice what he preached.

Joe_ Public · 01-05-2020 12:40PM

It seems to me they, and others, just underestimated the level of organisation it would take to keep the virus out of care homes. By suggesting in the official government guidelines that it would be perfectly safe for care homes to look after infected patients, i think there's a clear sense they never imagined there might be a serious problem. They were so distracted by the absolute necessity to "protect the nhs" that the message didnt seep through that care homes needed testing and adequate ppe until it was too late. Dont know what precisely happened in Spain but that is a tragedy too.

Professor Moriarty · 01-05-2020 12:42PM

Tandey wrote: »

Caught the virus because he didn’t practice what he preached.

No, he practised what he preached. That's why he caught Covid-19.

theological · 01-05-2020 12:45PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

It seems to me they, and others, just underestimated the level of organisation it would take to keep the virus out of care homes. By suggesting in the official government guidelines that it would be perfectly safe for care homes to look after infected patients, i think there's a clear sense they never imagined there might be a serious problem. They were so distracted by the absolute necessity to "protect the nhs" that the message didnt seep through that care homes needed testing and adequate ppe until it was too late. Dont know what precisely happened in Spain but that is a tragedy too.

A fuller consideration on care homes and PPE would be this:

Yes, the organisation in respect to keeping the virus out of care homes could have been better. It is also worth pointing out that several countries across Europe have struggled with outbreaks in care homes. Including France, Spain and Ireland. In fact the virus is spreading more in care homes in Ireland at the moment than it is in the community. It is obviously a challenge in an environment where vulnerable people are kept in one place and they need people to come in and work to ensure that they are cared for. Given that the virus can be transmitted from someone who is asymptomatic this makes it incredibly hard to keep out of such environments.

PPE is also a challenge in many other large countries in Europe. I pointed to the fact that there seem to have been issues with this in Germany also. You responded that the problem isn't as acute without providing any measure for this. Also - it is obvious that at the moment PPE supplies are pretty contested on the global market.

The reality is that both of these areas are not a unique challenge to the UK. Countries all around the world are learning about how to better deal with this virus. These two problems that you have cited are not solely or uniquely problems in Britain.

It is worth providing this fuller picture.

GazzaL wrote: »

Boris Johnson, whatever your views on him as a person or his politics, is someone who has come through a bad dose of the Coronavirus and has more positivity and pragmatism than all of our Government/HSE/NPHET combined:
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-pm-says-plans-to-ease-lockdown-will-be-revealed-next-week-11981492

I wait with expectation for this. I'm hoping that there will be a lot more transparency soon on this in the UK. They need to follow the continental European example of being more transparent with citizens to ensure their continued support.

A scenario where the people decide to ease restrictions themselves on their own terms first would be catastrophic.

A Dub in Glasgo · 01-05-2020 12:52PM

Scotland:
In hospital: 1,809 (+61)
In ICU: 110 (-1)
Total confirmed positive cases: 11,654 (+301)
Total deaths with confirmed positive COVID-19: 1,515 (+40)

Therefore as it stands, there are a minimum of 2,525 (1,515+1,010) deaths in Scotland (confirmed positive and suspected)

Joe_ Public · 01-05-2020 01:06PM

theological wrote: »

A fuller consideration on care homes and PPE would be this:

Yes, the organisation in respect to keeping the virus out of care homes could have been better. It is also worth pointing out that several countries across Europe have struggled with outbreaks in care homes. Including France, Spain and Ireland. In fact the virus is spreading more in care homes in Ireland at the moment than it is in the community. It is obviously a challenge in an environment where vulnerable people are kept in one place and they need people to come in and work to ensure that they are cared for. Given that the virus can be transmitted from someone who is asymptomatic this makes it incredibly hard to keep out of such environments.

PPE is also a challenge in many other large countries in Europe. I pointed to the fact that there seem to have been issues with this in Germany also. You responded that the problem isn't as acute without providing any measure for this. Also - it is obvious that at the moment PPE supplies are pretty contested on the global market.

The reality is that both of these areas are not a unique challenge to the UK. Countries all around the world are learning about how to better deal with this virus. These two problems that you have cited are not solely or uniquely problems in Britain.

It is worth providing this fuller picture.

There are reasons why Germany is faring so so much better than the uk (i dont want to compare but you repeatedly bring it up) and having a better ppe supply is just one of a number of reasons why. While the uk was busy decimating its equipment stockpile over the years, Germany was busy investing more in its own. Have a listen to the German foreign minister who was on Andrew Marr last week, he said they'd got criticism for actually spending too much.

So they're experiencing shortages? Who said they weren't? But one report of one group of GPs complaining about a shortage does not uk levels reach.

All these countries have challenges, i dont know why you feel the need to keep pointing out something i never ever claimed. Thing is, some have faced those challenges better than others.

theological · 01-05-2020 01:13PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

There are reasons why Germany is faring so so much better than the uk (i dont want to compare but you repeatedly bring it up) and having a better ppe supply is just one of a number of reasons why. While the uk was busy decimating its equipment stockpile over the years, Germany was busy investing more in its own. Have a listen to the German foreign minister who was on Andrew Marr last week, he said they'd got criticism for actually spending too much.

So they're experiencing shortages? Who said they weren't? But one report of one group of GPs complaining about a shortage does not uk levels reach.

All these countries have challenges, i dont know why you feel the need to keep pointing out something i never ever claimed. Thing is, some have faced those challenges better than others.

What I object to is the claim that the UK has a unique problem in respect to PPE and care homes. That is the bit I object to in your posts. You are presenting this as a unique challenge for the UK. It isn't.

The reality is of course that this is a problem that has been experienced right across Europe. That's a fact.

It is a tragic fact and there will be a lot to learn from at the other side of this epidemic.

Joe_ Public · 01-05-2020 01:22PM

theological wrote: »

What I object to is the claim that the UK has a unique problem in respect to PPE and care homes. That is the bit I object to in your posts. You are presenting this as a unique challenge for the UK. It isn't.

The reality is of course that this is a problem that has been experienced right across Europe. That's a fact.

It is a tragic fact and there will be a lot to learn from at the other side of this epidemic.

Your first sentence is utterly false, so preposterous I'm not going to bother. Just derailing the thread.

theological · 01-05-2020 01:27PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Your first sentence is utterly false, so preposterous I'm not going to bother. Just derailing the thread.

You should be willing to back up your arguments. Refusing to do so is part of what is ruining the quality of discussion in this thread.

01-05-2020 01:40PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Your first sentence is utterly false, so preposterous I'm not going to bother. Just derailing the thread.

So no other country has an issue with PPE, is that what you are claiming?

Leroy42 · 01-05-2020 02:05PM

Aegir wrote: »

So no other country has an issue with PPE, is that what you are claiming?

Did other countries actively turn down the chance to get additional PPE because they felt they would be able to source it themselves?

Because Give stated that the UK didn't need to join the EU procurement because they could do it fine themselves.

To then claim that sure everyone has issues is spectacularly missing the point that the government said there wouldn't be any issues

Joe_ Public · 01-05-2020 02:07PM

Aegir wrote: »

So no other country has an issue with PPE, is that what you are claiming?

No. Never claimed, never suggested, never hinted. You're welcome for the clarification.

BonnieSituation · 01-05-2020 02:10PM

GazzaL wrote: »

Boris Johnson, whatever your views on him as a person or his politics, is someone who has come through a bad dose of the Coronavirus and has more positivity and pragmatism than all of our Government/HSE/NPHET combined:
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-pm-says-plans-to-ease-lockdown-will-be-revealed-next-week-11981492

Pragmatism? Positivity?

I'd rather our brand of "pragmatism" and less dead people than the mess the Brits are in tbh.

The man is a populist and everything done thus far has been on foot of public pressure.

He's essentially Mayor Quimby - but without Quimby's trustworthiness and likeability.

“Very well, if that is the way the winds are blowing, let no one say I don’t also blow.”

Grim that anyone can think of Boris or any of this UK govt in a positive light.

Joe_ Public · 01-05-2020 02:12PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Did other countries actively turn down the chance to get additional PPE because they felt they would be able to source it themselves?

Because Give stated that the UK didn't need to join the EU procurement because they could do it fine themselves.

To then claim that sure everyone has issues is spectacularly missing the point that the government said there wouldn't be any issues

Or count single items as double to cover up their own failures?

Other countries have issues with lots of things. But i listen to Tony Holohan most days and i have never once heard him come out with a platitude like care homes are our "top priority" like hancock did the other day. You can make mistakes and have failings but be up front about them, people will cut you slack. Some will do it anyway, regardless, as we can see.

BonnieSituation · 01-05-2020 02:13PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

No. Never claimed, never suggested, never hinted. You're welcome for the clarification.

Jesus, you can't see the wood for the strawmen in here today.

01-05-2020 02:13PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Did other countries actively turn down the chance to get additional PPE because they felt they would be able to source it themselves?

Yes, they did. Has any arrived yet?

Leroy42 wrote: »

Because Give stated that the UK didn't need to join the EU procurement because they could do it fine themselves.

To then claim that sure everyone has issues is spectacularly missing the point that the government said there wouldn't be any issues

i don’t recall them ever saying that. Could you enlighten us all on when he did?

Professor Moriarty · 01-05-2020 02:14PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Pragmatism? Positivity?

I'd rather our brand of "pragmatism" and less dead people than the mess the Brits are in tbh.

The man is a populist and everything done thus far has been on foot of public pressure.

He's essentially Mayor Quimby - but without Quimby's trustworthiness and likeability.

Grim that anyone can think of Boris or any of this UK govt in a positive light.

I wouldn't trust him as far as I'd throw him but I'd say he'd be a good man to have a pint with.

01-05-2020 02:15PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

No. Never claimed, never suggested, never hinted. You're welcome for the clarification.

So what was so preposterous about that first sentence then?

S.M.B. · 01-05-2020 02:18PM

The post that started this latest little tangent literally starts with:

It seems to me they, and others, .......

and 5 posts later we have

What I object to is the claim that the UK has a unique problem

I think I'm done here, being keeping an eye on r/unitedkingdom the last 24 hours to see if I can get my fix from there and it's looking like it's nowhere near as frustrating as here.

robinph · 01-05-2020 02:19PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Or count single items as double to cover up their own failures?

I doubt that was an intentional miscounting, it's just the way that gloves are sold:

https://flusupplies.com/products/latex-powder-free-gloves-box-of-100?gclid=Cj0KCQjwka_1BRCPARIsAMlUmEoGSTpD8xXrnHPoIHCBdTWMBnjc-cBcqCvURXMJYLJnp0BJwF1KJ5IaAqsoEALw_wcB

The UK Government then just neglected to divide the number by two in order to get pairs, rather than that they multiplied a different number by two.

BonnieSituation · 01-05-2020 02:25PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I wouldn't trust him as far as I'd throw him but I'd say he'd be a good man to have a pint with.

Joe?

I'd rather chew my own fist than sit down with Boris

Professor Moriarty · 01-05-2020 02:27PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Joe?

I'd rather chew my own fist than sit down with Boris

I think I'd enjoy a pint with him. Seems like an engaging character.

BonnieSituation · 01-05-2020 02:27PM

S.M.B. wrote: »

The post that started this latest little tangent literally starts with:

and 5 posts later we have

I think I'm done here, being keeping an eye on r/unitedkingdom the last 24 hours to see if I can get my fix from there and it's looking like it's nowhere near as frustrating as here.

Please don't leave us alone with them.

They'll slink off soon like they always do.

BonnieSituation · 01-05-2020 02:28PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I think I'd enjoy a pint with him. Seems like an engaging character.

You're clearly a more patient man than I.

"False bonhomie" isn't my bag.

Leroy42 · 01-05-2020 02:38PM

Aegir wrote: »

Yes, they did. Has any arrived yet?

Totally irrelevant. They didn't know that at the time and the decision was not taken because they felt it wouldn't arrive.

i don’t recall them ever saying that. Could you enlighten us all on when he did?[/QUOTE]

Speaking on The Andrew Marr Show on the BBC, Mr Gove said: "There was some confusion over our involvement in that scheme.

"But I've talked to senior figures in the NHS and they've reassured me that there is nothing that we can't do as an independent nation that being part of that scheme would have allowed us to do."

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-03-29/michael-gove-admits-communication-confusion-over-eu-ventilator-scheme-mix-up/

CelticRambler · 01-05-2020 02:41PM

robinph wrote: »

I doubt that was an intentional miscounting, it's just the way that gloves are sold:

The UK Government then just neglected to divide the number by two in order to get pairs, rather than that they multiplied a different number by two.

Jeeez, that's really stretching the justification of incompetence to the max. When we order boxes of gloves, gowns, aprons, masks, whatever, we order boxes; and when we count our stock, we count boxes; and when we give it out to staff members, we give out boxes.

Only the most autistic bean-counter, scraping the very bottom of the barrel of penny-saving excuses counts individual gloves. Depending on what I'm doing on any particular day, I could go through a box of 100 gloves in a morning ... and I have a reputation in my workplace(s) for being extremely frugal.

01-05-2020 02:42PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Totally irrelevant. They didn't know that at the time and the decision was not taken because they felt it wouldn't arrive.

i don’t recall them ever saying that. Could you enlighten us all on when he did?

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-03-29/michael-gove-admits-communication-confusion-over-eu-ventilator-scheme-mix-up/[/quote]

When did Gove say there would be no issues with PPE?

Professor Moriarty · 01-05-2020 02:47PM

This Tory government is now being disingenuous about its testing targets:

The government has changed the way it is counting the number of Covid-19 tests carried out, in a bid to hit its self-imposed 100,000 tests per day target, the Health Service Journal reports. Previously, a test would be counted once the sample had been processed in a lab, but this definition has been changed in the last few days, a senior source has told the HSJ. According to the source, the Department of Health and Social Care is now including tests that have been posted or delivered to people’s home in its figures – which means tests that are sent to people are counted before the recipient has done their test and returned their sample to the lab.

The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

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