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Catholic Church, Mass Attendance

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13567…11

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    #62
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,831 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    When the current batch of dyed in the wool elderly mass goers die off, attendances will go through the floor, their children and grandchildren no longer will have to keep them happy with empty gestures.

    Yeah I think the Catholic Church are about 40 years from being virtually obsolete in this country. Society is much more enlightened and with each sex scandal and subsequent coverup, financial swindling there is another nail being hammered into the coffin of Catholicism.

    People are realizing that you can live a good life, be spiritually sound, be good to your neighbor and LOVE without all the BS.


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    #63
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    forgottenhills wrote: »
    First of all I want to say that i am not religious.

    I was a teenager in 1979 and I grew up in a rural part of Ireland where the influence of the church was very strong so I am glad to see the influence wane and hopefully religion now will only be for those with genuine faith and the Church/State separation will be secure.

    Having said that growing up in the 1970's I wasn't aware of or heard of any sexual abuse by members of the Church. This included 5 years in a boarding school where there were many priests and where I genuinely never heard of any incidents, past or present. So abuse wasn't widespread but obviously it was terrible that some did happen. The generation older than mine, and even mine, were generally shocked when allegations surfaced about abuse by priests as many had never heard about it previously, even as a rumour.


    With respect, in the 1970s you didn't dare speak of such things.


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    #64
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,988 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Strumms wrote: »
    Yeah I think the Catholic Church are about 40 years from being virtually obsolete in this country. Society is much more enlightened and with each sex scandal and subsequent coverup, financial swindling there is another nail being hammered into the coffin of Catholicism.

    People are realizing that you can live a good life, be spiritually sound, be good to your neighbor and LOVE without all the BS.

    I wouldn't mind if it was subsumed into the state. Similar to the UK or some of the Scandinavians. Obviously most people don't believe in the religious nonsense hut the tradition and rituals can be a fun addition to an occasion.

    It's what people already do when they only go to church for occasions like funerals and coming of age ceremonies like first communion and confirmation.

    I also wouldn't mind of the Catholic Church died out in Ireland as long as people can replace the social scene of attending church with something else.


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    #65
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Jermaine Careful Schoolteacher wrote: »
    On the other hand you need to be 45 mins early for mass to get a seat on Christmas Eve in my parish church, you need to be 20 to 30 mins early to just get into the church. I was 20 mins early last year and just about got into the hall a good few people had to stand outside.

    And how many Masses are there in the parish weekly compared to a decade ago and two decades ago?

    My parent’s parish is a standard rural, conservative, west of Ireland community. For the church attendance to be that low on Christmas Eve is notable.

    You are delusional if you think attendances haven’t fallen off a cliff. I guarantee if a system was brought in like in Germany where people of a stated religion have money taken from their wages to give to that church, you’d soon see the census figures of Catholics plummet.


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    #66
    sabat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    Given that paedophilia is a mental disorder occuring at a set rate amongst the population and not, as most people seem to have been convinced, an inate facet of Catholicism, you have to ask where are all the paedos today? My money is on big tech, NGOs and social services- basically whatever organisations have positioned themselves as untouchable and operate opaquely just as the RCC, BBC, Orange Order, Westminster etc did in the past.
    And if you think similar things to that awful "Old Ireland" beloved of the Anglophone media and self-righteous posters here, aren't still going on today, you're in for a big shock when the revelations start appearing down the line. You want a contemporary conspiracy of silence? Why are Roma girls as young as 12 going AWOL here? How about what happens to children inside Pentecostal churches? Have proper checks been conducted to determine whether the children transported into Ireland to reunite with refugee parents, greatly increasing their housing and welfare entitlements, are actually their children?
    You are not even allowed to ask these questions...


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    #67
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,988 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    sabat wrote: »
    Given that paedophilia is a mental disorder occuring at a set rate amongst the population and not, as most people seem to have been convinced, an inate facet of Catholicism, you have to ask where are all the paedos today? My money is on big tech, NGOs and social services- basically whatever organisations have positioned themselves as untouchable and operate opaquely just as the RCC, BBC, Orange Order, Westminster etc did in the past.
    And if you think similar things to that awful "Old Ireland" beloved of the Anglophone media and self-righteous posters here, aren't still going on today, you're in for a big shock when the revelations start appearing down the line. You want a contemporary conspiracy of silence? Why are Roma girls as young as 12 going AWOL here? How about what happens to children inside Pentecostal churches? Have proper checks been conducted to determine whether the children transported into Ireland to reunite with refugee parents, greatly increasing their housing and welfare entitlements, are actually their children?
    You are not even allowed to ask these questions...

    You're dead right. You're not even allowed to ask those questions. I mean I have no idea what the post was about. But it's a good thing you didn't ask those questions because, as you know, you can't.

    Absolute gibberish.


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    #68
    sabat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    You're dead right. You're not even allowed to ask those questions. I mean I have no idea what the post was about. But it's a good thing you didn't ask those questions because, as you know, you can't.

    Absolute gibberish.

    The post (which is perfectly intelligible) is about the relentless propaganda of old Ireland=bad, new Ireland=good, and how within this new conformity of thought evil thrives as it always does.
    I already know the answers to those questions, but unfortunately the state and media prefer to root around the past for maximum sanctimony with little downside rather than tackle current problems.


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    #69
    Austria!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Austria!


    KungPao wrote: »
    Sanctimonious scumbags, made my life a bloody misery.


    Sorry about that


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    #70
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users Posts: 12,214 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Many traditional Protestant churches are also in decline. My aunt is a Presbyterian and they're down from 40+ members 20 years ago, to their last dozen or so, and all coffin dodgers.

    There's no doubt that Ireland is increasingly identifying as atheist but I'd say that most of my generation (I'm in my 40s) were essentially atheist anyway. Mass or church was a habit more than any genuine belief.

    Meanwhile Evangelical church attendances are booming.

    I'd see it more as a departure from habitual religion. Those who attend any service now would tend to be serious about their faith rather than just going because it was the done thing.


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    #71
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,680 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Wtf ? wrote: »
    They ruled for too long with an Iron fist and nobody, Even the government dared question them. The Chickens finally came home to roost and it all came out, Finally. I always hoped I would see it in my lifetime and I have.
    I am almost 70 and saw first hand the abuse,the cover up's,denials, sent to a different parish etc. I will die happy.


    The RCC didn’t actually rule anything? They ingratiated themselves into Irish society and flourished because they did society’s dirty work of keeping the undesirables out of sight of civilised society and under control whilst also providing education and welfare services to the State which was only too happy to turn a blind eye to the abuse at the time. Why would anyone ever think to kill the golden goose? Why would anyone question a system which worked to their advantage?

    A topical example of the kind of abuses that were carried out in these institutions which everyone in Irish society were aware existed at the time, and the conditions within the confines of these institutions which were run by religious orders, funded by the State -


    ’Forced trials' for vaccines need to be included in inquiry into mother and baby homes


    You’d be rather foolish to imagine anything has actually changed in modern Irish society. I’ve no issue with you dying happy, but I’d rather you didn’t try to rewrite history before you go.


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    #72
    kowloonkev
    Registered Users Posts: 2,140 ✭✭✭kowloonkev


    If priests were allowed to marry it would have prevented a lot of abuse, or at least abuse levels would be in line with the rest of the population, probably much lower. It would also make it a much more appealing vocation and make priests understand their congregation a lot more. It will have to happen at some stage as numbers dwindle so don't know what the vatican is waiting for.

    By the way, all the priests I've ever dealt with were very nice people apart from the peculiarities developed through a life of being isolated.

    Religion will always be there in some form or another. Certainly I'd prefer RC over some religions and if RC were to disappear then something would be there to replace it.

    Just look at the state of the country. Drugs all over the place. Young people with no shame whatsoever going around all the small villages and towns of Ireland high as kites, dealing drugs. They weren't abused by priests I can guarantee that; they never saw the inside of a church. I think the pendulum has swung too far the other way away from people having a spiritual side.


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    #73
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,448 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    sabat wrote: »
    You are not even allowed to ask these questions...

    Except that you just have been allowed to ask those questions.


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    #74
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,988 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    sabat wrote: »
    The post (which is perfectly intelligible) is about the relentless propaganda of old Ireland=bad, new Ireland=good, and how within this new conformity of thought evil thrives as it always does.
    I already know the answers to those questions, but unfortunately the state and media prefer to root around the past for maximum sanctimony with little downside rather than tackle current problems.

    It's a bloody conspiracy against you personally. The state and meeja have it in for you.

    But it's a good thing you didn't ask those questions, because as you said, you can't.

    In reality it was waffle. You might think old "Ireland=bad, new Ireland=Good". I hear lots of nostalgia about the good old days.

    The Catholic Church was free to behave well or behave poorly. They chose to cover up every single item of sexual abuse that came to their attention.

    I consider that to be pretty naughty behaviour. I think it's the behaviour of a criminal organisation, don't you?


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    #75
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,790 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Patois wrote: »
    i dont know about the rest of ye pagans, but i for one would love more mass, i think its awesome and sews the fabric of our delicate society together in the only cohesive fashion that ever held this country in one singular purpose since the abandonment of our celtic roots. newsflash, look at me, celtic christianity (dude look it up) sits perfectly with what it is truly irish. yeah man, burn the perverts, clean it out ta fukc, but dont throw the baby out with the bathwater!

    Paganism is the true Irish religion, not an import from the Middle East.


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    #76
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,988 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Patois wrote: »
    i dont know about the rest of ye pagans, but i for one would love more mass, i think its awesome and sews the fabric of our delicate society together in the only cohesive fashion that ever held this country in one singular purpose since the abandonment of our celtic roots. newsflash, look at me, celtic christianity (dude look it up) sits perfectly with what it is truly irish. yeah man, burn the perverts, clean it out ta fukc, but dont throw the baby out with the bathwater!

    Yeah I'd like to see the social club aspect be replaced by something else. Throw out the God business, the desire to campaign politically, throw out always having to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world and keep it as a place to socialise. That would be ideal.


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    #77
    maestroamado
    Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    They say Saint Patrick brought Christianity to Ireland.
    At some point in this country Catholic church took over Christianity.
    The Catholic church in Ireland is not Christian.
    I just go to mass when i attend funeral.
    I go to churches/places and light candles.
    There is another monster in our midst and nothing to do with religion...


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    #78
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,988 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    kowloonkev wrote: »
    If priests were allowed to marry it would have prevented a lot of abuse, or at least abuse levels would be in line with the rest of the population, probably much lower.

    Maybe not. The Catholic Church provided a completely safe refuge for someone to be an abuser with the might of a powerful international organisation to cover up for them. In short, it attracted deviants.


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    #79
    eastie17
    Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭eastie17


    lalababa wrote: »
    Yep, alot done but more to do I'm afraid: baptism as a function of primary school enrollment and endoctrination of children including holy Communion, confirmation. Church weddings and church funerals. They know how to keep you literally from the cradle to the grave.
    I have no problem with 99% of Christs' teachings. The basic Christian code of ethics is a very good staple of morality.
    However the cult of the RC church in Ireland must be obliterated.
    The only thing is , if there is a vacuum, what will come or be in it's place??Political tribalism/consumerism/vanity/sport/enlightenment/Sodom & Gomorrah/ ??and whatever you're having yourself.
    The vacuum has already been replaced by shopping. I live in Cork and the packed churches of a Sunday morning and have now been replaced by queues into Mahon Point
    Where people used
    Personally I still go to mass regularly and still regard myself as Catholic. I give money to my local priest but dont put anything into the plate or any of their extra collections such as those for "retired priests" which is essentially to support some of the pedophiles they eventually hid off from the world. I dont believe they get the right to take my religion away from me so i find a way to take what I want from it without supporting them.
    With all the money they have, no-one should have to be supporting their local priest but they dont seem to. Dont know if he "kicks any of it up" to the big bosses


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    #80
    Gretas Gonna Get Ya!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Gretas Gonna Get Ya!


    Wtf ? wrote: »
    n 1979, Pope John Paul II visited the Republic of Ireland, and approximately 2.7 million people – 79% of the population – came out to honour him. At the time, contraception, divorce, and homosexuality were illegal, and John Paul II was a god. All gone and I am glad. Most priests over 70 and only a handful training in Maynooth. They ruled for too long with an Iron fist and nobody,Even the government dared question them. The Chickens finally came home to roost and it all came out, Finally. I always hoped I would see it in my lifetime and I have.
    I am almost 70 and saw first hand the abuse,the cover up's,denials, sent to a different parish etc. I will die happy.

    What about all the huge beautiful properties they still own - priests often living alone in the largest grandest old house in a parish... what about the big old churches that were bought and paid for by the poor people of that community many years ago?

    The church and these priests still have too much status and grandeur for my liking... all of these things should have been taken off the catholic church and given back to the people of those communities. They are their amenities, not the church's...

    After the crimes they commited, they should be conducting mass out of a portacabin... and living in a small modest cottage on the edge of their village.

    Were priests not supposed to take a vow to live a very basic lifestyle anyway? You wouldn't guess it by looking at the priests in my locality... big mansion, new cars, huge flat screen TVs etc etc... I think the Irish public are still being given the runaround by these slimy charlatans!


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    #81
    Iodine1
    Registered Users Posts: 380 ✭✭Iodine1


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    It's a bloody conspiracy against you personally. The state and meeja have it in for you

    The Catholic Church was free to behave well or behave poorly. They chose to cover up every single item of sexual abuse that came to their attention.

    But it wasn't just the Catholics. The various Protestants had "care" and "unmarried mother homes" and plenty of abusers too. And the swimming clubs, etc etc. It was a societal mindset at the time, funded by the state and supported by the people. And it wasn't just Ireland it was the case in many countries worldwide.


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    #82
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,988 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »
    ...
    Were priests not supposed to take a vow to live a very basic lifestyle anyway? You wouldn't guess it by looking at the priests in my locality... big mansion, new cars, huge flat screen TVs etc etc... I think the Irish public are still being given the runaround by these slimy charlatans!

    Have I wandered into a dole bashing thread?


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    #83
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »
    What about all the huge beautiful properties they still own - priests often living alone in the largest grandest old house in a parish... what about the big old churches that were bought and paid for by the poor people of that community many years ago?

    The church and these priests still have too much status and grandeur for my liking... all of these things should have been taken off the catholic church and given back to the people of those communities. They are their amenities, not the church's...

    After the crimes they commited, they should be conducting mass out of a portacabin... and living in a small modest cottage on the edge of their village.

    Were priests not supposed to take a vow to live a very basic lifestyle anyway? You wouldn't guess it by looking at the priests in my locality... big mansion, new cars, huge flat screen TVs etc etc... I think the Irish public are still being given the runaround by these slimy charlatans!

    Did you have to try to come out with the absolute nonsense or did it come naturally?


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    #84
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,988 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Iodine1 wrote: »
    But it wasn't just the Catholics. The various Protestants had "care" and "unmarried mother homes" and plenty of abusers too. And the swimming clubs, etc etc. It was a societal mindset at the time, funded by the state and supported by the people. And it wasn't just Ireland it was the case in many countries worldwide.

    Yeah the Catholics didn't invent the concept of using its domestic and international might to shield child abusers from.the law, but they certainly advanced the practice.

    If you seriously think you can compare swim clubs to the international abuser smuggling operation run by the Catholics, then go ahead. But I really think the Catholics were more dedicated to it and better at it than anyone else.


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    #85
    LuasSimon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭LuasSimon


    Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »
    What about all the huge beautiful properties they still own - priests often living alone in the largest grandest old house in a parish... what about the big old churches that were bought and paid for by the poor people of that community many years ago?

    The church and these priests still have too much status and grandeur for my liking... all of these things should have been taken off the catholic church and given back to the people of those communities. They are their amenities, not the church's...

    After the crimes they commited, they should be conducting mass out of a portacabin... and living in a small modest cottage on the edge of their village.

    Were priests not supposed to take a vow to live a very basic lifestyle anyway? You wouldn't guess it by looking at the priests in my locality... big mansion, new cars, huge flat screen TVs etc etc... I think the Irish public are still being given the runaround by these slimy charlatans!

    Any of the priests around our way have a humble life , in old houses on their own that are not maintained . So busy racing around to do masses , weddings and christenings etc for demanding enough big day only catholic’s .
    It’s a very tough life compared to what it once was but many of them are too generous with their time . Our local priest goes round visiting the elderly and sick in their homes etc pre Covid and brings great comfort to those people . There’s plenty of good priests and indeed Catholics out there .


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    #86
    Marhay70
    Registered Users Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭Marhay70


    Biggest problem with the RC Church is that somewhere in their murky past they have forgotten that fundamentally, they are supposed to be Christians.


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    #87
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 19,988 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Marhay70 wrote: »
    Biggest problem with the RC Church is that somewhere in their murky past they have forgotten that fundamentally, they are supposed to be Christians.
    Says who? They're a powerful corporation. I don't expect them to behave any more morally than Google or any other corporation.

    They have a business model which includes doing some charity work but they wouldn't do it if it wasn't making them wealthy. The priests on the front line don't be or wealthy, they're the equivalent to the lads in the call centre, dealing with all the disgruntled customers.

    The notion that they behave well and are above reproach is a pretty Important part of the business model. I wouldn't believe it just because they said it. If they started throwing abusers under the bus an compensating victims without years of legal wrangling, that would be good behaviour on the corporate side of the business but I don't expect to see that because $$$$ is one of their main reasons for existing.


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    #88
    jaxxx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,230 ✭✭✭jaxxx


    "He who keeps the keys to heaven rules the world" :rolleyes:

    Deliberate use of male pronoun was deliberate too, since the good old Roman Catholic Church doesn't put women in equal standing to men. Not so? Then how come they don't allow women to be priests?

    I have no problem with religion. I do have a problem with corrupt organisations. And, well.. .. .. you don't get any more corrupt than this :cool:


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    #89
    Marhay70
    Registered Users Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭Marhay70


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Says who? They're a powerful corporation. I don't expect them to behave any more morally than Google or any other corporation.

    They have a business model which includes doing some charity work but they wouldn't do it if it wasn't making them wealthy. The priests on the front line don't be or wealthy, they're the equivalent to the lads in the call centre, dealing with all the disgruntled customers.

    The notion that they behave well and are above reproach is a pretty Important part of the business model. I wouldn't believe it just because they said it. If they started throwing abusers under the bus an compensating victims without years of legal wrangling, that would be good behaviour on the corporate side of the business but I don't expect to see that because $$$$ is one of their main reasons for existing.

    Wouldn't disagree with any of that but they also have the slogan of "come in here and listen to us if you want to live forever" which is far and above anything the likes of Google have to offer and stems from their roots in Christianity. This is why they still have a significant number of people attending Mass regularly, it's the fear factor, more powerful than any other.


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    #90
    sabat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Except that you just have been allowed to ask those questions.

    I'm a random poster on a message board, not a state or media employee. That people are attacking me for raising the issues of children in Ireland today being traded for cash amongst certain ethnicities and being subjected to bizarre religious practices (exorcisms, speaking in tongues etc) in others, proves my point.

    I believe you've argued against me here before about the new establishment cult of medical experiments being performed on children in the name of transsexualism? Before decrying Irish people in the past as brainwashed zealots maybe you need to look in the mirror...


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    #91
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,175 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    sabat wrote: »
    I'm a random poster on a message board, not a state or media employee. That people are attacking me for raising the issues of children in Ireland today being traded for cash amongst certain ethnicities and being subjected to bizarre religious practices (exorcisms, speaking in tongues etc) in others, proves my point.

    I believe you've argued against me here before about the new establishment cult of medical experiments being performed on children in the name of transsexualism? Before decrying Irish people in the past as brainwashed zealots maybe you need to look in the mirror...

    who has attacked you?


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