Lucky Escape at level Crossing

GerardKeating · 29-04-2020 08:20PM #1

Some poeple had a lucky escape today.

whisky_galore · 29-04-2020 11:14PM

Why on earth in the 21st century do we still have these user operated level crossings?

Atlantic Dawn · 29-04-2020 11:26PM

The enquiry in to this will be shall we say "interesting".

Del.Monte · 30-04-2020 12:17AM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Why on earth in the 21st century do we still have these user operated level crossings?

Presumably because of the sheer number of them and the cost of getting rid of them? I assume this was an accommodation crossing rather than a level crossing as I can't see a level crossing of that name in my copy of "Irish Railways Today"?

goingnowhere · 30-04-2020 12:39AM

Its always amazing they choose to cross right when a train is due...

Likely a review of cctv from passing trains will show the gate being left open regularly.

whisky_galore · 30-04-2020 07:50AM

goingnowhere wrote: »

Its always amazing they choose to cross right when a train is due...

Likely a review of cctv from passing trains will show the gate being left open regularly.

The general public can't be trusted to open a tin of beans on their own without injuring themselves let alone negotiate this kind of crossing. These things are accidents waiting to happen, someone will get killed, it's only a matter of time.

flazio · 30-04-2020 07:52AM

goingnowhere wrote: »

Its always amazing they choose to cross right when a train is due...

Likely a review of cctv from passing trains will show the gate being left open regularly.

It was certainly left open on the day that the Street view car drove through it. So I imagine it's regularly left open.

donvito99 · 30-04-2020 10:16AM

No doubt that Irish Rail will get the blame for this ultimately, it is too much to expect the public to bother there arses and contribute to safety themselves.

Tabnabs · 30-04-2020 10:36AM

I thought this thread might refer to this other incident yesterday, in Norway. Thankfully no fatalities, but passengers were injured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9HIP-QEihE

skip to 1:00 to see the crash from another angle.

Jamie2k9 · 30-04-2020 10:41AM

Not sure how true but this is a crossing where this has been installed a few months ago but not operational yet.

The first of these technical enhancements is a Decision Support System (DSS) in the form of a double aspect traffic light; there will be two types of DSS: “Always On” (where the indicator lights normally remain on) and "On Demand" (where the indicator lights remain unlit until activated by the user, using an “on demand” button). The objective of the DSS at user worked level crossings is to provide the level crossing user with improved information as to the approach of trains and to assist them with their determination of when it is not safe to cross.

donvito99 · 30-04-2020 10:44AM

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not sure how true but this is a crossing where this has been installed a few months ago but not operational yet.

The first of these technical enhancements is a Decision Support System (DSS) in the form of a double aspect traffic light; there will be two types of DSS: “Always On” (where the indicator lights normally remain on) and "On Demand" (where the indicator lights remain unlit until activated by the user, using an “on demand” button). The objective of the DSS at user worked level crossings is to provide the level crossing user with improved information as to the approach of trains and to assist them with their determination of when it is not safe to cross.

The crossing in Mayo or the crossing in Norway?

Jamie2k9 · 30-04-2020 10:47AM

donvito99 wrote: »

The crossing in Mayo or the crossing in Norway?

Mayo and likely to be rolled out across Mayo as people there appear to have a major problem of driving in front of trains.

Losty Dublin · 30-04-2020 01:00PM

Del.Monte wrote: »

Presumably because of the sheer number of them and the cost of getting rid of them? I assume this was an accommodation crossing rather than a level crossing as I can't see a level crossing of that name in my copy of "Irish Railways Today"?

This is the location and yes it's an accommodation crossing. For some reason it's almost the culture in Mayo to misuse such gates, with crashes and near misses being almost weekly happenings in the county.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kilnageer,+Co.+Mayo/@53.8306644,-9.2140165,3a,75y,64.81h,84.86t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sHhXduMh-CHdw9l749pPOAA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DHhXduMh-CHdw9l749pPOAA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D270.83765%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x48595c1c117ffd71:0x312bb44e95f657e7!8m2!3d53.8232587!4d-9.2145917

For those who are wondering, it costs a minimum of €100,000 to install automatic crossing gates, with a bridge costing considerably more. Irish Rail would gladly covert all of them across the country except there's loads of them and even then barriers don't work for some motorists....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/driver-crashes-through-level-crossing-barrier-in-co-roscommon-1.4189588

Del.Monte · 30-04-2020 01:51PM

With the good visibility at the crossing you would wonder how this accident could possibly have happened. It takes me back to accidents in the past where people would open one gate, drive onto the track, open the second gate and get back into the car and proceed.

Losty Dublin · 30-04-2020 03:05PM

Del.Monte wrote: »

With the good visibility at the crossing you would wonder how this accident could possibly have happened. It takes me back to accidents in the past where people would open one gate, drive onto the track, open the second gate and get back into the car and proceed.

It's down to plain old ignorance by motorists, simple as.

There was a death of a motorist at a crossing in Roscommon a few years back. When interviewed for the report, locals said that a railway signal a mile down down track showing green meant that a train wasn't coming and that it related to road traffic. Another death arising from a similar crossing in Mayo involved a driver who himself had been hit by a train at the very same junction some years previous. On the day of the incident the train driver had a near miss at the same spot :rolleyes:

Many of these crossings will be kept open with stones, pegs and even tied open in some cases. Ideally Irish Rail would rather close or automate these crossings but they would require close to €1 billion to eliminate all of them nationally, money that patently is not there. For now, common sense from motorists wouldn't go a begging.

donvito99 · 30-04-2020 03:20PM

So long as the risk of death and serious injury is low and damage and delay to trains is limited, why should Irish Rail change its ways to accommodate idiots?

91wx763 · 30-04-2020 03:49PM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Many of these crossings will be kept open with stones, pegs and even tied open in some cases. .

Snipped David's post, if you go back to the previous streetview image of 2009 you'll see this https://goo.gl/maps/scuoPyAKT8bpfFJG9

Look at the newer/"current" 2011 image https://goo.gl/maps/ndSxexbgCLsh9Jqt8

The same bit of block is at the corner of the gate !!!

Is it still there now in 2020 ???

It appears from the location of the train the car came from the southside of the line, from the direction my pictures come from.

Besides, from a railway point of view, I know at 80 mph it would be a bit of a blur to the train driver but surely some drivers should see the gates left open and call them in ? A metal "flag" of sorts can be put on the top of the gate to show an oncoming train that the gate is not across the roadway.

whisky_galore · 30-04-2020 06:04PM

91wx763 wrote: »

Snipped David's post, if you go back to the previous streetview image of 2009 you'll see this https://goo.gl/maps/scuoPyAKT8bpfFJG9

Look at the newer/"current" 2011 image https://goo.gl/maps/ndSxexbgCLsh9Jqt8

The same bit of block is at the corner of the gate !!!

Is it still there now in 2020 ???

It appears from the location of the train the car came from the southside of the line, from the direction my pictures come from.

Besides, from a railway point of view, I know at 80 mph it would be a bit of a blur to the train driver but surely some drivers should see the gates left open and call them in ? A metal "flag" of sorts can be put on the top of the gate to show an oncoming train that the gate is not across the roadway.

Waste of time. People leave these gates open all of the time because of laziness and because they get away with it. Drivers won't call them in because they will be calling every.single.time. they pass the damned gates. Someone comes out to check and close then only for them to be wide open again after they've gone.

You can put little signals up but then unless you install cctv and have the process to monitor and catch, pursue and prosecute people who leave gates open you may have spent the guts of the cost of automatic barriers anyhow. Either close the crossing permanently or build the hazard out of it. People are often crappy observers of their own surroundings, factor in visibility, weather or plain old over familiarity, even seasoned railwaymen have been caught out and killed by trains.

91wx763 · 30-04-2020 06:39PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

. Drivers won't call them in because they will be calling every single.time they pass the damned gates.

That is shocking. If the safety statements dictate a process and it's run roughshod over by both the operator and road user well that is anarchy. Train carrying 300 hits a bus carrying 50 people one day ??? That is an unacceptable risk.

Del.Monte · 30-04-2020 07:16PM

Back in the day (1980s) when I could get footplate passes the Sligo line was one I did only a couple of times and then avoided. It was notorious for farmers with tractors and trailers nipping across accommodation crossings with the train bearing down on top of them.

Jamie2k9 · 30-04-2020 07:22PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Waste of time. People leave these gates open all of the time because of laziness and because they get away with it. Drivers won't call them in because they will be calling every.single.time. they pass the damned gates. Someone comes out to check and close then only for them to be wide open again after they've gone.

You can put little signals up but then unless you install cctv and have the process to monitor and catch, pursue and prosecute people who leave gates open you may have spent the guts of the cost of automatic barriers anyhow. Either close the crossing permanently or build the hazard out of it. People are often crappy observers of their own surroundings, factor in visibility, weather or plain old over familiarity, even seasoned railwaymen have been caught out and killed by trains.

Is that an assumption?

I get it would be rather pointless calling in all the times however if a train was involved in an accident and if investigative authorities were to review footage on other trains from that day and had a driver not reported I don't think they would be particularly happy.

Reports are also good to compile levels of non compliance and potentially shape capital investment in crossings automation/elimination.

Markcheese · 30-04-2020 07:38PM

Del.Monte wrote: »

With the good visibility at the crossing you would wonder how this accident could possibly have happened. It takes me back to accidents in the past where people would open one gate, drive onto the track, open the second gate and get back into the car and proceed.

I almost did that type of thing in England ... An accommadation crossing in a very rural area , a few signs and gates ,so I open both gates , drive over , close the first gate and laugh with my girlfriend about how theres probably 1 train a week at walking pace ... I'm just closing the second gate when an express train comes thundering down the main great Western line ... Saw it coming round the bend before I heard it ..

91wx763 · 30-04-2020 07:48PM

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Reports are also good to compile levels of non compliance and potentially shape capital investment in crossings automation/elimination.

But clearly not in this case and with this operator if nothing has changed using clear evidence from 11 years ago and with Whiskygalore's allegation/comment....

whisky_galore · 30-04-2020 09:03PM

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Is that an assumption?

I get it would be rather pointless calling in all the times however if a train was involved in an accident and if investigative authorities were to review footage on other trains from that day and had a driver not reported I don't think they would be particularly happy.

Reports are also good to compile levels of non compliance and potentially shape capital investment in crossings automation/elimination.

Just get rid of them, ok?

The public have been protected from danger, installing this, that and the other at every potential interface. Fences, barriers, non slip surfaces, lighting, modern footbridges and lifts, all of which don't fall out of the sky and this, remaining relic of the past is supposedly too expensive? How many of your 'reports' will it take? Does it take a fatality before someone pulls the finger out?

Losty Dublin · 01-05-2020 12:46AM

91wx763 wrote: »

But clearly not in this case and with this operator if nothing has changed using clear evidence from 11 years ago and with Whiskygalore's allegation/comment....

It's easier for train crews to report the rare day when there has been gates closed or no near miss en route, that's how often they would be reporting them.

Some years ago they ran a campaign in Mayo where staff would man some of the gates on an ad hoc basis to talk with local users of these crossings to inform them of the risks of leaving gates open, hand out copies of the crossing safety booklet; that sort of thing. Several of the Irish Rail staff were threatened by road users, with one even having his car damaged by an unhappy local. When it was parked at his home, no less.

Bar a permanent Garda back up, there's very little else they can do until the crossings are closed or converted to gate barriers.

Tails142 · 01-05-2020 01:27AM

The first one of these I ever came upon was in Limerick,, I hadn't a clue what to do, never saw one before. A car came from the other side and went through and left the gates open for me so I went through and closed them after. Had no idea what was going on, I don't remember there being much signage but there probably was, it would have been around 2008 and there's 2009 images on google streetview with signage in place.

I think this was the one, the pikeys weren't there at the time; I'd be thinking thank god the gates were open if I had come upon it then =D

https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.7345728,-8.476901,3a,75y,301.62h,74.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sANqxxHQBw7ufC5hw70lRZw!2e0!5s20110801T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Isambard · 01-05-2020 09:18AM

I suppose the people who would run into a problem at these crossings also blindly drive through a yield across a main road.

Jamie2k9 · 01-05-2020 08:36PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Just get rid of them, ok?

The public have been protected from danger, installing this, that and the other at every potential interface. Fences, barriers, non slip surfaces, lighting, modern footbridges and lifts, all of which don't fall out of the sky and this, remaining relic of the past is supposedly too expensive? How many of your 'reports' will it take? Does it take a fatality before someone pulls the finger out?

I am not disagreeing but just think the comment was slightly unfair on drivers particularly on the Westport route where compliance at crossings s not good. Unless you driver the route!

Its just not feasible to close all crossings and you will see if you read multiple accident reports from Mayo which have included fatalities one of the recommendations is elimination.

But clearly not in this case and with this operator if nothing has changed using clear evidence from 11 years ago and with Whiskygalore's allegation/comment....

Did drivers raise the issue, if you should loud enough and all...

It's easier for train crews to report the rare day when there has been gates closed or no near miss en route, that's how often they would be reporting them.

Some years ago they ran a campaign in Mayo where staff would man some of the gates on an ad hoc basis to talk with local users of these crossings to inform them of the risks of leaving gates open, hand out copies of the crossing safety booklet; that sort of thing. Several of the Irish Rail staff were threatened by road users, with one even having his car damaged by an unhappy local. When it was parked at his home, no less.

Bar a permanent Garda back up, there's very little else they can do until the crossings are closed or converted to gate barriers.

Un-monitored CCTV would likely deter many from leaving the gates open. Not expensive to try particularly on road crossings. Not check legal side but missus is an offence...

Couple of farm crossings have yellow phones fitted, prehaps if they were fitted for all unattended public road crossings it might help.

IE 222 · 02-05-2020 12:41AM

What's the end result here. Unless there made an example of nothing is going to change here. A simple lucky escape message isn't going to improve things. Will these people be charged? Can they be charged for the cost of damage to the train, do insurance companies cover this?

Is there any laws/fines for leaving gates open.

whisky_galore · 02-05-2020 08:27AM

Isambard wrote: »

I suppose the people who would run into a problem at these crossings also blindly drive through a yield across a main road.

That's a big supposition, and a situation that can't be engineered out short of self driving cars.

Cookie_Monster · 02-05-2020 08:37AM

Why are there gates on these crossings anyway?, they add a huge delay and hence danger to the process of crossing tracks. Why not just a stop sign and with lights if busy enough to justify them.

Here's a local crossing to me in a busy industrial route at the edge of town, adding manual gates here would guarantee deaths, whereas the above is both easy and safe to cross as it is.
Corbett Rd
https://maps.app.goo.gl/vxWBXrM1CpxoMvXz7

Lucky Escape at level Crossing

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