Lucky Escape at level Crossing

GerardKeating

Some poeple had a lucky escape today.

whisky_galore

Why on earth in the 21st century do we still have these user operated level crossings?

Atlantic Dawn

The enquiry in to this will be shall we say "interesting".

Del.Monte

whisky_galore wrote: »

Why on earth in the 21st century do we still have these user operated level crossings?

Presumably because of the sheer number of them and the cost of getting rid of them? I assume this was an accommodation crossing rather than a level crossing as I can't see a level crossing of that name in my copy of "Irish Railways Today"?

goingnowhere

Its always amazing they choose to cross right when a train is due...

Likely a review of cctv from passing trains will show the gate being left open regularly.

whisky_galore

goingnowhere wrote: »

Its always amazing they choose to cross right when a train is due...

Likely a review of cctv from passing trains will show the gate being left open regularly.

The general public can't be trusted to open a tin of beans on their own without injuring themselves let alone negotiate this kind of crossing. These things are accidents waiting to happen, someone will get killed, it's only a matter of time.

flazio

goingnowhere wrote: »

Its always amazing they choose to cross right when a train is due...

Likely a review of cctv from passing trains will show the gate being left open regularly.

It was certainly left open on the day that the Street view car drove through it. So I imagine it's regularly left open.

donvito99

No doubt that Irish Rail will get the blame for this ultimately, it is too much to expect the public to bother there arses and contribute to safety themselves.

Tabnabs

I thought this thread might refer to this other incident yesterday, in Norway. Thankfully no fatalities, but passengers were injured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9HIP-QEihE

skip to 1:00 to see the crash from another angle.

Jamie2k9

Not sure how true but this is a crossing where this has been installed a few months ago but not operational yet.

The first of these technical enhancements is a Decision Support System (DSS) in the form of a double aspect traffic light; there will be two types of DSS: “Always On” (where the indicator lights normally remain on) and "On Demand" (where the indicator lights remain unlit until activated by the user, using an “on demand” button). The objective of the DSS at user worked level crossings is to provide the level crossing user with improved information as to the approach of trains and to assist them with their determination of when it is not safe to cross.

donvito99

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not sure how true but this is a crossing where this has been installed a few months ago but not operational yet.

The first of these technical enhancements is a Decision Support System (DSS) in the form of a double aspect traffic light; there will be two types of DSS: “Always On” (where the indicator lights normally remain on) and "On Demand" (where the indicator lights remain unlit until activated by the user, using an “on demand” button). The objective of the DSS at user worked level crossings is to provide the level crossing user with improved information as to the approach of trains and to assist them with their determination of when it is not safe to cross.

The crossing in Mayo or the crossing in Norway?

Jamie2k9

donvito99 wrote: »

The crossing in Mayo or the crossing in Norway?

Mayo and likely to be rolled out across Mayo as people there appear to have a major problem of driving in front of trains.

Losty Dublin

Del.Monte wrote: »

Presumably because of the sheer number of them and the cost of getting rid of them? I assume this was an accommodation crossing rather than a level crossing as I can't see a level crossing of that name in my copy of "Irish Railways Today"?

This is the location and yes it's an accommodation crossing. For some reason it's almost the culture in Mayo to misuse such gates, with crashes and near misses being almost weekly happenings in the county.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kilnageer,+Co.+Mayo/@53.8306644,-9.2140165,3a,75y,64.81h,84.86t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sHhXduMh-CHdw9l749pPOAA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DHhXduMh-CHdw9l749pPOAA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D270.83765%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x48595c1c117ffd71:0x312bb44e95f657e7!8m2!3d53.8232587!4d-9.2145917

For those who are wondering, it costs a minimum of €100,000 to install automatic crossing gates, with a bridge costing considerably more. Irish Rail would gladly covert all of them across the country except there's loads of them and even then barriers don't work for some motorists....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/driver-crashes-through-level-crossing-barrier-in-co-roscommon-1.4189588

Del.Monte

With the good visibility at the crossing you would wonder how this accident could possibly have happened. It takes me back to accidents in the past where people would open one gate, drive onto the track, open the second gate and get back into the car and proceed.

Losty Dublin

Del.Monte wrote: »

With the good visibility at the crossing you would wonder how this accident could possibly have happened. It takes me back to accidents in the past where people would open one gate, drive onto the track, open the second gate and get back into the car and proceed.

It's down to plain old ignorance by motorists, simple as.

There was a death of a motorist at a crossing in Roscommon a few years back. When interviewed for the report, locals said that a railway signal a mile down down track showing green meant that a train wasn't coming and that it related to road traffic. Another death arising from a similar crossing in Mayo involved a driver who himself had been hit by a train at the very same junction some years previous. On the day of the incident the train driver had a near miss at the same spot :rolleyes:

Many of these crossings will be kept open with stones, pegs and even tied open in some cases. Ideally Irish Rail would rather close or automate these crossings but they would require close to €1 billion to eliminate all of them nationally, money that patently is not there. For now, common sense from motorists wouldn't go a begging.

donvito99

So long as the risk of death and serious injury is low and damage and delay to trains is limited, why should Irish Rail change its ways to accommodate idiots?

91wx763

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Many of these crossings will be kept open with stones, pegs and even tied open in some cases. .

Snipped David's post, if you go back to the previous streetview image of 2009 you'll see this https://goo.gl/maps/scuoPyAKT8bpfFJG9

Look at the newer/"current" 2011 image https://goo.gl/maps/ndSxexbgCLsh9Jqt8

The same bit of block is at the corner of the gate !!!

Is it still there now in 2020 ???

It appears from the location of the train the car came from the southside of the line, from the direction my pictures come from.

Besides, from a railway point of view, I know at 80 mph it would be a bit of a blur to the train driver but surely some drivers should see the gates left open and call them in ? A metal "flag" of sorts can be put on the top of the gate to show an oncoming train that the gate is not across the roadway.

whisky_galore

91wx763 wrote: »

Snipped David's post, if you go back to the previous streetview image of 2009 you'll see this https://goo.gl/maps/scuoPyAKT8bpfFJG9

Look at the newer/"current" 2011 image https://goo.gl/maps/ndSxexbgCLsh9Jqt8

The same bit of block is at the corner of the gate !!!

Is it still there now in 2020 ???

It appears from the location of the train the car came from the southside of the line, from the direction my pictures come from.

Besides, from a railway point of view, I know at 80 mph it would be a bit of a blur to the train driver but surely some drivers should see the gates left open and call them in ? A metal "flag" of sorts can be put on the top of the gate to show an oncoming train that the gate is not across the roadway.

Waste of time. People leave these gates open all of the time because of laziness and because they get away with it. Drivers won't call them in because they will be calling every.single.time. they pass the damned gates. Someone comes out to check and close then only for them to be wide open again after they've gone.

You can put little signals up but then unless you install cctv and have the process to monitor and catch, pursue and prosecute people who leave gates open you may have spent the guts of the cost of automatic barriers anyhow. Either close the crossing permanently or build the hazard out of it. People are often crappy observers of their own surroundings, factor in visibility, weather or plain old over familiarity, even seasoned railwaymen have been caught out and killed by trains.

91wx763

whisky_galore wrote: »

. Drivers won't call them in because they will be calling every single.time they pass the damned gates.

That is shocking. If the safety statements dictate a process and it's run roughshod over by both the operator and road user well that is anarchy. Train carrying 300 hits a bus carrying 50 people one day ??? That is an unacceptable risk.

Del.Monte

Back in the day (1980s) when I could get footplate passes the Sligo line was one I did only a couple of times and then avoided. It was notorious for farmers with tractors and trailers nipping across accommodation crossings with the train bearing down on top of them.

Jamie2k9

whisky_galore wrote: »

Waste of time. People leave these gates open all of the time because of laziness and because they get away with it. Drivers won't call them in because they will be calling every.single.time. they pass the damned gates. Someone comes out to check and close then only for them to be wide open again after they've gone.

You can put little signals up but then unless you install cctv and have the process to monitor and catch, pursue and prosecute people who leave gates open you may have spent the guts of the cost of automatic barriers anyhow. Either close the crossing permanently or build the hazard out of it. People are often crappy observers of their own surroundings, factor in visibility, weather or plain old over familiarity, even seasoned railwaymen have been caught out and killed by trains.

Is that an assumption?

I get it would be rather pointless calling in all the times however if a train was involved in an accident and if investigative authorities were to review footage on other trains from that day and had a driver not reported I don't think they would be particularly happy.

Reports are also good to compile levels of non compliance and potentially shape capital investment in crossings automation/elimination.

Markcheese

Del.Monte wrote: »

With the good visibility at the crossing you would wonder how this accident could possibly have happened. It takes me back to accidents in the past where people would open one gate, drive onto the track, open the second gate and get back into the car and proceed.

I almost did that type of thing in England ... An accommadation crossing in a very rural area , a few signs and gates ,so I open both gates , drive over , close the first gate and laugh with my girlfriend about how theres probably 1 train a week at walking pace ... I'm just closing the second gate when an express train comes thundering down the main great Western line ... Saw it coming round the bend before I heard it ..

91wx763

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Reports are also good to compile levels of non compliance and potentially shape capital investment in crossings automation/elimination.

But clearly not in this case and with this operator if nothing has changed using clear evidence from 11 years ago and with Whiskygalore's allegation/comment....

whisky_galore

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Is that an assumption?

I get it would be rather pointless calling in all the times however if a train was involved in an accident and if investigative authorities were to review footage on other trains from that day and had a driver not reported I don't think they would be particularly happy.

Reports are also good to compile levels of non compliance and potentially shape capital investment in crossings automation/elimination.

Just get rid of them, ok?

The public have been protected from danger, installing this, that and the other at every potential interface. Fences, barriers, non slip surfaces, lighting, modern footbridges and lifts, all of which don't fall out of the sky and this, remaining relic of the past is supposedly too expensive? How many of your 'reports' will it take? Does it take a fatality before someone pulls the finger out?

Losty Dublin

91wx763 wrote: »

But clearly not in this case and with this operator if nothing has changed using clear evidence from 11 years ago and with Whiskygalore's allegation/comment....

It's easier for train crews to report the rare day when there has been gates closed or no near miss en route, that's how often they would be reporting them.

Some years ago they ran a campaign in Mayo where staff would man some of the gates on an ad hoc basis to talk with local users of these crossings to inform them of the risks of leaving gates open, hand out copies of the crossing safety booklet; that sort of thing. Several of the Irish Rail staff were threatened by road users, with one even having his car damaged by an unhappy local. When it was parked at his home, no less.

Bar a permanent Garda back up, there's very little else they can do until the crossings are closed or converted to gate barriers.

Tails142

The first one of these I ever came upon was in Limerick,, I hadn't a clue what to do, never saw one before. A car came from the other side and went through and left the gates open for me so I went through and closed them after. Had no idea what was going on, I don't remember there being much signage but there probably was, it would have been around 2008 and there's 2009 images on google streetview with signage in place.

I think this was the one, the pikeys weren't there at the time; I'd be thinking thank god the gates were open if I had come upon it then =D

https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.7345728,-8.476901,3a,75y,301.62h,74.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sANqxxHQBw7ufC5hw70lRZw!2e0!5s20110801T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Isambard

I suppose the people who would run into a problem at these crossings also blindly drive through a yield across a main road.

Jamie2k9

whisky_galore wrote: »

Just get rid of them, ok?

The public have been protected from danger, installing this, that and the other at every potential interface. Fences, barriers, non slip surfaces, lighting, modern footbridges and lifts, all of which don't fall out of the sky and this, remaining relic of the past is supposedly too expensive? How many of your 'reports' will it take? Does it take a fatality before someone pulls the finger out?

I am not disagreeing but just think the comment was slightly unfair on drivers particularly on the Westport route where compliance at crossings s not good. Unless you driver the route!

Its just not feasible to close all crossings and you will see if you read multiple accident reports from Mayo which have included fatalities one of the recommendations is elimination.

But clearly not in this case and with this operator if nothing has changed using clear evidence from 11 years ago and with Whiskygalore's allegation/comment....

Did drivers raise the issue, if you should loud enough and all...

It's easier for train crews to report the rare day when there has been gates closed or no near miss en route, that's how often they would be reporting them.

Some years ago they ran a campaign in Mayo where staff would man some of the gates on an ad hoc basis to talk with local users of these crossings to inform them of the risks of leaving gates open, hand out copies of the crossing safety booklet; that sort of thing. Several of the Irish Rail staff were threatened by road users, with one even having his car damaged by an unhappy local. When it was parked at his home, no less.

Bar a permanent Garda back up, there's very little else they can do until the crossings are closed or converted to gate barriers.

Un-monitored CCTV would likely deter many from leaving the gates open. Not expensive to try particularly on road crossings. Not check legal side but missus is an offence...

Couple of farm crossings have yellow phones fitted, prehaps if they were fitted for all unattended public road crossings it might help.

IE 222

What's the end result here. Unless there made an example of nothing is going to change here. A simple lucky escape message isn't going to improve things. Will these people be charged? Can they be charged for the cost of damage to the train, do insurance companies cover this?

Is there any laws/fines for leaving gates open.

whisky_galore

Isambard wrote: »

I suppose the people who would run into a problem at these crossings also blindly drive through a yield across a main road.

That's a big supposition, and a situation that can't be engineered out short of self driving cars.

Cookie_Monster

Why are there gates on these crossings anyway?, they add a huge delay and hence danger to the process of crossing tracks. Why not just a stop sign and with lights if busy enough to justify them.

Here's a local crossing to me in a busy industrial route at the edge of town, adding manual gates here would guarantee deaths, whereas the above is both easy and safe to cross as it is.
Corbett Rd
https://maps.app.goo.gl/vxWBXrM1CpxoMvXz7

whisky_galore

IE 222 wrote: »

What's the end result here. Unless there made an example of nothing is going to change here. A simple lucky escape message isn't going to improve things. Will these people be charged? Can they be charged for the cost of damage to the train, do insurance companies cover this?

Is there any laws/fines for leaving gates open.

€1000 fine, good luck catching anyone for that without cctv or personnel on the ground.

Isambard

whisky_galore wrote: »

That's a big supposition, and a situation that can't be engineered out short of self driving cars.

it's not a supposition, it's really a comment that people don't generally drive through Yield signs without looking and if they do they are likely to have an accident, so why do they do just that at railway crossings?

1874

2 questions


1. Having only crossed railway tracks at busy locations where they are automated, it appears a vehicle could get into the space either side of the track and close the gate behind them, completely cross, open the other side, move out and close it behind them?
Rather than fully automatic, there must be some option to make this easier to deal with, so that its more likely it will be observed correctly.
I still dont understand why there aren't lights of some sort to warn of an oncoming train and/or stop lights?


2.
What the hell was going on with that crash in Norway, one clip doesnt seem to be accessible now, how is a vehicle on the tracks, seemingly just parked there? is it all of the same incident, one clip showed the pantograph getting detached? not clear how that is getting snagged.

Jamie2k9

1. Having only crossed railway tracks at busy locations where they are automated, it appears a vehicle could get into the space either side of the track and close the gate behind them, completely cross, open the other side, move out and close it behind them?
Rather than fully automatic, there must be some option to make this easier to deal with, so that its more likely it will be observed correctly.
I still dont understand why there aren't lights of some sort to warn of an oncoming train and/or stop lights?

Explains how to operate such crossings. They are fitting a light type indicator at some crossings

https://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/rail-bridge-heights-and-level-crossings/rail-level-crossings
______________

According to this the new warning lights should be operational this month at the crossing and there are 24 types of these crossings on the network.

https://www.midwestradio.ie/index.php/news/38381-irish-rail-has-no-plans-to-install-automated-level-crossing-at-notorious-castlebar-rail-crossing

Markcheese

I assume on of the main problems is cars don't slow down for the crossings . The sightlines seemed fine ,
If we assume that the public aren't going to use the gates properly, to then speed bumps either side would slow cars down , and maybe flashing lights as cars approach the track..( to remind them to look ) .

IE 222

whisky_galore wrote: »

€1000 fine, good luck catching anyone for that without cctv or personnel on the ground.

It would be a worthy investment getting some sort of mobile CCTV device as long as the courts issue the fines.

They should look at some sort of system where you feed €20 into a machine to release the gate and then its returned to you on the other side once the gate is locked.

interlocked

This is one of two notorious crossings either side of Castlebar,the other is Knockapunta, scene of many a close miss or in one case,fatal.

The issue with these crossings is to a large degree,complacency. If you are approaching this crossing for the first time,chances are you'll stop, get out, check both sides, drive over it cautiously, looking both ways and generally have the fear of god instilled in you. If on the other hand, you're local and crossing it multiple times a day, over time you get dulled to the dangers, a simple thing can distract you,the radio, talking to someone in the car, kids in the back etc.

In 2007, Irish Rail decided to do a sting operation on this crossing and another outside Athenry, they closed the gates,parked a van adjacent and took photos of all the people stopping, opening the gates and driving through,omitting to shut them each time.

They brought a court case where the defendants argued that they had never seen the gates closed before and were unaware of their obligation. The judge, Mary Devins agreed and dismissed the case.

https://www.mayonews.ie/news/20088-train-crash-at-knockaphunta-again


In the other case, in Athenry, the judge convicted the defendants and large fines were imposed.

In light of this, Irish Rail proposed installing bridges at the locations in conjunction with the local authority but it ran into logistical and funding issues and they remain unresolved today.

Ironically the company has made huge strides in eliminating disused or obsolete crossings in recent years,many of which were designed to service farm holdings divided by the railway. They were nearly 300 crossings between Athlone and Westport but a large number of these are eliminated,don't have the numbers to hand.

However the two outside Castlebar remain some of the most glaring outliers on the network.

whisky_galore

IE 222 wrote: »

It would be a worthy investment getting some sort of mobile CCTV device as long as the courts issue the fines.

They should look at some sort of system where you feed €20 into a machine to release the gate and then its returned to you on the other side once the gate is locked.

That sounds really cumbersome and likely to break down or be broken.

IE 222

whisky_galore wrote: »

That sounds really cumbersome and likely to break down or be broken.

That's the idea. If operating the gates correctly it wouldn't add much more than 15 seconds onto the correct procedure. Nobody is going to drive off and leave money behind.

whisky_galore

IE 222 wrote: »

That's the idea. If operating the gates correctly it wouldn't add much more than 15 seconds onto the correct procedure. Nobody is going to drive off and leave money behind.

And nobody is ever going to bring this idea to market.

91wx763

interlocked wrote: »

This is one of two notorious crossings either side of Castlebar,the other is Knockapunta, scene of many a close miss or in one case,fatal.

The issue with these crossings is to a large degree,complacency. If you are approaching this crossing for the first time,chances are you'll stop, get out, check both sides, drive over it cautiously, looking both ways and generally have the fear of god instilled in you. If on the other hand, you're local and crossing it multiple times a day, over time you get dulled to the dangers, a simple thing can distract you,the radio, talking to someone in the car, kids in the back etc.

In 2007, Irish Rail decided to do a sting operation on this crossing and another outside Athenry, they closed the gates,parked a van adjacent and took photos of all the people stopping, opening the gates and driving through,omitting to shut them each time.

They brought a court case where the defendants argued that they had never seen the gates closed before and were unaware of their obligation. The judge, Mary Devins agreed and dismissed the case.

https://www.mayonews.ie/news/20088-train-crash-at-knockaphunta-again


In the other case, in Athenry, the judge convicted the defendants and large fines were imposed.

In light of this, Irish Rail proposed installing bridges at the locations in conjunction with the local authority but it ran into logistical and funding issues and they remain unresolved today.

Ironically the company has made huge strides in eliminating disused or obsolete crossings in recent years,many of which were designed to service farm holdings divided by the railway. They were nearly 300 crossings between Athlone and Westport but a large number of these are eliminated,don't have the numbers to hand.

However the two outside Castlebar remain some of the most glaring outliers on the network.

I still can't get me head around how an unsafe act, definitely contrary to any safety at work statute or law is allowed to be deemed acceptable by even a judge, let alone those in the industry who could be potentially found guilty of manslaughter.

Say front facing CCTV shows a loco or unit passing an open gate and on the back working it strikes something ?

metrovick001

Ireland in a nutshell...."The judge, Mary Devins agreed and dismissed the case"

Isambard

metrovick001 wrote: »

Ireland in a nutshell...."The judge, Mary Devins agreed and dismissed the case"

the Judge clearly didn't understand the issue

Markcheese

Would bump gates work ?( Slowly nudge the gate and it opens ,drive through ,and over the line,bump the far side ,gate closes automatically..
Or just cattle grids ... And flashing lights on a sign reminding people to look ..

L1011

The slow speed you need to navigate them with would be a risk on a crossing

whisky_galore

Markcheese wrote: »

Would bump gates work ?( Slowly nudge the gate and it opens ,drive through ,and over the line,bump the far side ,gate closes automatically..
Or just cattle grids ... And flashing lights on a sign reminding people to look ..

People with new cars don't want anything to touch them or to bump into anything. And then there's agri tractors that will just smash into them. No gate would put up with that punishment and I'm sure they'd find a way of jamming it open with a stone or a block anyhow.

Flashing lights are a nonsense, people will try and chance it like they do at traffic lights.

91wx763

This is an extract from a UK Network Rail staff information service from Monday-

Advised by LCM, he has imposed a 20 mph ESR on the Up Main and a 40 mph ESR on the Down Main due to repeated crossing misuse by unauthorised users at Sharpes UWC (SWM2 143m 15c) between Chepstow and Caldicot.
Newport PW do not have staff to be able to arrange installation of the ESR boards until Wednesday at the earliest so the signaller will caution trains over the crossing, the Pontypool MOM will be sent to man the crossing when available.

LCM- Level Crossing Manager
ESR- Emergency Speed restriction
UWC- User Worked Crossing
SWM2- Engineers line reference and location in miles and chains
PW- Permanent Way (employees)
MOM- Mobile Operations Manager

3 days and it's carried out as an urgent risk reduction measure. But it's allowed go on for years on IÉ ???

blackbox

There are lots of level crossings in rural USA. I believe that if you get hit by a train and survive, you will be sued for damages by the train company.

JustAThought

i’ve seen parts of this country ruined with speed ramps, aluminium poles, multiple signs, bollards and all kids of street clutter - yet the feckless will ignore all regardless of the cost and effort to out them in and the inconvenience to everyone else.

In fairness I’ve never seen - or imagined - anything as hillbilly as this in Ireland - were all the accidents out of countrys or tourists?

+1 for flashing lights & motion triggered cctv on the gates and massive fines - we have the technology to do things like this now - why should the taxpayer be burdened by the feckless and irresponsible. A few claims for the repairs off their insurance should put them off the road forever.

Darwin Awards for repeat offenders - because they’re worth it!

Melanchthon

Isambard wrote: »

the Judge clearly didn't understand the issue

interlocked wrote: »

In 2007, Irish Rail decided to do a sting operation on this crossing and another outside Athenry, they closed the gates,parked a van adjacent and took photos of all the people stopping, opening the gates and driving through,omitting to shut them each time.

They brought a court case where the defendants argued that they had never seen the gates closed before and were unaware of their obligation. The judge, Mary Devins agreed and dismissed the case.

The name of that judge should be familiar in relation to a number of controversies, used to be a webpage documenting the likely reason for this but contents seem to be down due to a legal request, sure posters can guess why what activity a rural judge of her age is partaking in that would lead to be very erratic in terms of judgments and pronouncements