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The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

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Comments

  • #4052
    Memnoch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    theological wrote: »
    This is silly. It'd be better to stick to the facts (and avoiding personalising the argument or making speculative claims).

    I'm Irish and I largely fall on the same side of the argument as Aegir. In that this is a tragic virus that is taking lives and that the UK is largely following the same trajectory of other large European countries with the exception of Germany which has done incredibly well so far.

    This is a false. The UK has 41,000 deaths right now, nearly as much as America and the highest rate of deaths per million out of any country in the world.

    UK: 41,000 - 603 per million

    https://www.ft.com/content/67e6a4ee-3d05-43bc-ba03-e239799fa6ab


  • #4053
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,464 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Memnoch wrote: »
    This is a lie. And it will remain a lie no matter how many times you repeat it. The lack of integrity of these figures has been repeatedly pointed out to you yet you will continue to deliberately ignore it so it is time to call a spade a spade and your lies for what they are.

    https://www.ft.com/content/67e6a4ee-3d05-43bc-ba03-e239799fa6ab

    Yes, the figures from the ONS back this up 100%.


  • #4054
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Memnoch wrote: »
    This is a false. The UK has 41,000 deaths right now, nearly as much as America and the highest rate of deaths per million out of any country in the world.

    UK: 41,000 - 603 per million

    https://www.ft.com/content/67e6a4ee-3d05-43bc-ba03-e239799fa6ab

    Based on an estimate. We can only work on the confirmed figures. If the figures are significantly higher then I doubt the UK is an outlier in this.


  • #4055
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,462 ✭✭✭blinding


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    No, the electorate voted against his policies and he resigned his position.
    That was not very Eu-Like of him:D;)

    He must have returned to his far left Anti-Eu to do that :D;)


  • #4056
    Memnoch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    theological wrote: »
    Based on an estimate. We can only work on the confirmed figures. If the figures are significantly higher then I doubt the UK is an outlier in this.

    The official figures are provided by a government that has consistently lied about every aspect of its handling of this crisis. Therefore we must rely on scientific studies from more reputable sources such as the financial Times.

    The confirmed figures are a lie by this government to cover up their gross ineptitude. Perpetuating these lies by yourself and others is nothing more than dishonest obfuscation.


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  • #4057
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Enzokk wrote: »
    Was this in answer to test, track and trace and relaxing the lockdown?

    He doesn't know the numbers in the community as testing has not been widespread enough but it is far far higher than it needs to be. But they are at the peak, they are at the peak without knowing the numbers in the community. They need to see fewer new cases to see that track and trace is working for them to see about relaxing the measures that is currently in place

    I will remind everyone that they don't know the numbers because testing isn't widespread enough yet.

    It was the question asked by Laura Trott which was how prevalent the virus was in the community. He admitted they didnt know before going on with much of the waffle you outline above. World leaders, dont you know. Countries across the world all desperate to know how the uk stole a march when it came to testing.


  • #4058
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Memnoch wrote: »
    The official figures are provided by a government that has consistently lied about every aspect of its handling of this crisis. Therefore we must rely on scientific studies from more reputable sources such as the financial Times.

    The confirmed figures are a lie by this government to cover up their gross ineptitude. Perpetuating these lies by yourself and others is nothing more than dishonest obfuscation.

    There's nothing dishonest about saying the two things I've said which are.
    1. We can only rely on the confirmed figures with certainty (the ONS figures are probably the best to use).

    2. If the figures are in fact higher as the FT estimate then this is likely true for other countries in Europe. We need to wait for confirmation of these.


  • #4059
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,176 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    theological wrote: »
    There's nothing dishonest about saying the two things I've said which are.
    1. We can only rely on the confirmed figures with certainty (the ONS figures are probably the best to use).

    2. If the figures are in fact higher as the FT estimate then this is likely true for other countries in Europe.


    LOL number 2 is completely dishonest as it is based on an absolutely baseless assumption


  • #4060
    Memnoch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    theological wrote: »
    There's nothing dishonest about saying the two things I've said which are.
    1. We can only rely on the confirmed figures with certainty (the ONS figures are probably the best to use).

    2. If the figures are in fact higher as the FT estimate then this is likely true for other countries in Europe.

    It absolutely is deliberate dishonesty on your part (and Aegir's) when you continue to ignore the mountain of evidence about how these figures have been consistently manipulated and dishonestly represented by this government throughout the duration of this crisis.

    It depends on the country. Deflecting to them is not a defense for the lies by this government that you continue to perpetuate.


  • #4061
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Memnoch wrote: »
    It absolutely is deliberate dishonesty on your part (and Aegir's) when you continue to ignore the mountain of evidence about how these figures have been consistently manipulated and dishonestly represented by this government throughout the duration of this crisis.

    It depends on the country. Deflecting to them is not a defense for the lies by this government that you continue to perpetuate.

    You seem to have an axe to grind but it isn't dishonest not to rely on an estimate more than the confirmed deaths.

    In the event that it becomes confirmed that it is higher then I won't take it with a pinch of salt. I suspect that if this is confirmed then deaths may be revised upwards in other comparable European countries also.

    I think that's actually handling the data with integrity.


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  • #4062
    Memnoch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    theological wrote: »
    You seem to have an axe to grind but it isn't dishonest not to rely on an estimate more than the confirmed deaths.

    In the event that it becomes confirmed that it is higher then I won't take it with a pinch of salt. I suspect that if this is confirmed then deaths may be revised upwards in other comparable European countries also.

    I think that's actually handling the data with integrity.

    The conformed figures are a lie.

    You can keep repeating a lie but it remains a lie. This government has lied about every single aspect of its handling of this crisis.

    There is a mountain of evidence that has shown how the figures provided by the government do not add up.

    What you say is confirmed is confirmed by a government with a track record of absolute dishonesty on this very matter.

    The fact that you continue to ignore the context of the dishonesty of this government and the consistent and mounting evidence that show these figures to be completely incorrect demonstrates deliberate obfuscation on your part.


  • #4063
    myfreespirit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 483 ✭✭myfreespirit


    theological wrote: »
    You seem to have an axe to grind but it isn't dishonest not to rely on an estimate more than the confirmed deaths.

    In the event that it becomes confirmed that it is higher then I won't take it with a pinch of salt. I suspect that if this is confirmed then deaths may be revised upwards in other comparable European countries also.

    I think that's actually handling the data with integrity.


    I have been following this thread with interest for a number of weeks now.
    The post by user Memnoch is indeed welcome, calling out the flagrant dishonesty of several posters, who appear to constantly seek to deflect attention from the lies of the UK government.

    This dishonesty is frightening and dispiriting, most especially when you recall the human tragedy of so many lives lost.


  • #4064
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Memnoch wrote: »
    The conformed figures are a lie.

    You can keep repeating a lie but it remains a lie. This government has lied about every single aspect of its handling of this crisis.

    There is a mountain of evidence that has shown how the figures provided by the government do not add up.

    What you say is confirmed is confirmed by a government with a track record of absolute dishonesty on this very matter.

    The fact that you continue to ignore the context of the dishonesty of this government and the consistent and mounting evidence that show these figures to be completely incorrect demonstrates deliberate obfuscation on your part.

    I'll wait for the estimate to be confirmed because that seems more honest to me.


  • #4065
    Memnoch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    theological wrote: »
    I'll wait for the estimate to be confirmed because that seems more honest to me.

    No. It is a deliberate obfuscation by you to deflect and defend the repeated and indefensible lies of an inept government that has resulted in the absolutely needless deaths of tens of thousands of its citizens and which it is now attempting to cover up.

    https://www.ft.com/content/67e6a4ee-3d05-43bc-ba03-e239799fa6ab
    UK coronavirus deaths more than double official figure according to FT study

    The coronavirus pandemic has already caused as many as 41,000 deaths in the UK, according to a Financial Times analysis of the latest data from the Office for National Statistics.

    The estimate is more than double the official figure of 17,337 released by ministers on Tuesday, which is updated daily and only counts those who have died in hospitals after testing positive for the virus.


  • #4066
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,009 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Yet they wont announce them as official numbers alongside hospital deaths? Why? Are they not confident in the data?

    They are confident that people are dead, they know the death rate is approaching double of what it should be. And its 60+ age range getting hit.

    They can't put words in peoples mouths though, they don't know what killed each individual. Its fair to say its going to be pandemic related regardless.


  • #4067
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Memnoch wrote: »
    No. It is a deliberate obfuscation by you to deflect and defend the repeated and indefensible lies of an inept government that has resulted in the absolutely needless deaths of tens of thousands of its citizens and which it is now attempting to cover up.

    https://www.ft.com/content/67e6a4ee-3d05-43bc-ba03-e239799fa6ab

    OK I get it. You're going to huff and puff but the name calling isn't going to change my opinion that it is best to work with confirmed deaths rather than estimates.


  • #4068
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,136 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    theological wrote: »
    I'll wait for the estimate to be confirmed because that seems more honest to me.

    Why? Why have the government not got an actual figure? You seem totally au fait with the government failing consistently to put in place a system that would actually tell them the reality.

    They were happy to rely on science when making decisions, but estimates from experts hare not to be taken seriously?

    Why do they not have the real numbers, why do they continue to publish incomplete numbers?

    Surely you are asking that question


  • #4069
    Memnoch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    theological wrote: »
    OK I get it. You're going to huff and puff but the name calling isn't going to change my opinion that it is best to work with confirmed deaths rather than estimates.

    Yes. You will continue to repeat the same lie no matter the weight of evidence showing that it is very clearly a lie. That much is obvious. And I will continue to call you out for perpetuating a lie that seeks to cover up the needless deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people.


  • #4070
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,136 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    theological wrote: »
    OK I get it. You're going to huff and puff but the name calling isn't going to change my opinion that it is best to work with confirmed deaths rather than estimates.

    So if they were working off the deaths only in NI would you be happy with that? Or maybe just deaths after 14.00. Or maybe only men in their forties.

    Because there is no reason to base anything on the incomplete numbers they are currently running with. Especially since the only reason not to go with full numbers is that it is difficult to get them!


  • #4071
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    So if they were working off the deaths only in NI would you be happy with that? Or maybe just deaths after 14.00. Or maybe only men in their forties.

    Because there is no reason to base anything on the incomplete numbers they are currently running with. Especially since the only reason not to go with full numbers is that it is difficult to get them!

    I'm happy to stick with the ONS data as I was explaining to another poster. You should read in context before replying.


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  • #4072
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,176 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    theological wrote: »
    I'm happy to stick with the ONS data as I was explaining to another poster. You should read in context before replying.


    But the Government aren't? Otherwise they would be publishing that as the official data......


  • #4073
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    It's only been in the last week or so that they now include the ons figure on the graph along with the daily figure at the daily briefing but it still feels very cursory, as if they're just feeling obliged to do it. And as we now know, even the ons figure itself is far from the full picture. We may never actually know the full extent of it.


  • #4074
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    VinLieger wrote: »
    LOL number 2 is completely dishonest as it is based on an absolutely baseless assumption

    Not really

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html


  • #4075
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,176 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Aegir wrote: »
    Not really

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html


    Paywall, can you summarise?


  • #4076
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,462 ✭✭✭blinding


    Aegir wrote: »
    Not really

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html
    I see Leo Varadkar’s “ Big Country “ does not even Register ! !


  • #4077
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    dfx- wrote: »
    The whole debacle everywhere is a failure in mass indiscriminate testing. It is the cornerstone of all successful approaches. You don't need a lockdown or see a wave if you isolate those who have it by testing them early on and tracing every contact.

    All of the other things, lockdown, airport closures, health service, PPE, masks etc are all secondary options and signs of failure. The illness is already dug in by then.

    Even when they do approach asking questions, it is always from political correspondents about the political 'target' of 100,000 a day in mid-March rather than what they did or didn't do in December, January and February

    The smart move would have been to stop the daily flight from Wuhan to Heathrow in December.

    For two months after this started, a Boeing 787 was landing each day into London, Paris, New York and Dubai.


  • #4078
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,853 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Paywall, can you summarise?

    It shouldn’t be, but they basically list eleven countries they looked at and there are 25,000 additional deaths over seasonal average.


  • #4079
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,462 ✭✭✭blinding


    Aegir wrote: »
    The smart move would have been to stop the daily flight from Wuhan to Heathrow in December.

    For two months after this started, a Boeing 787 was landing each day into London, Paris, New York and Dubai.
    Trump was right on this . I see he has wisely stopped All Immigration for Two Months; He is again absolutely right on this !


  • #4080
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,060 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    blinding wrote: »
    Trump was right on this . I see he has wisely stopped All Immigration for Two Months; He is again absolutely right on this !


    South Africa closed their borders on the 27th March, but yeah Trump is right and wisely closed the borders. The pandemic was only starting in South Africa at that stage as well, so it would be like Trump banning immigration around the start of March. But yeah, he is absolutely right on this.


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  • #4081
    Leroy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,136 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    theological wrote: »
    I'm happy to stick with the ONS data as I was explaining to another poster. You should read in context before replying.

    Yet you think there is any issue with the government not looking to fast track the collection of this data so that it can be assessed less than 10 days afterwards?

    I have asked a few times, never get an answer, why are the numbers not up to date? This seems either gross incompetence by the government or on purpose.

    Neither are a good look.


This discussion has been closed.
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