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The Chinese Big Lie

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  • #1562
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    BanditLuke wrote: »
    Definite ramping up of questioning of the brutal CCP regime the last 48hrs by the media which is very positive.

    When some other country annoys the US I am sure we will hear about that brutal regime, and still nothing about Saudi or any brutal regime the US supports.


    The US has been fighting "brutal regimes" for two decades now, killing millions in the process. Maga.


  • #1563
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    I have a question for you - you are in China at the moment so that means that the local time for you right now is 03.40.

    How many nights in the last week have you spent the entire night awake posting your pro-CCP BS on this thread?

    I'm in Ireland now. I have been here since mid January. Came home for a 3 week holiday, and got stuck due to covid.

    As for BS... if it is BS, then, surely you would be able to adequately argue against it? No? If so, I haven't seen you do it yet.

    As for being pro-CCP. I'm not. I'm just anti-stupidity, and willful ignorance. which this thread has in spades.


  • #1564
    MadYaker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,340 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    cryptocurrency wrote: »
    If the Daily Mail's timeline is correct then that is a very tight timeframe. We know by the start of January China had been engaged internationally with the science community for a few of weeks. According to UK advisors.


    The virus was brand new and it is entirely logical that in a city of 11 million that by December 15th the 27 cases of people presenting with a pneumonia-like illness were still being treated locally as having pneumonia. I don't see where this Bruce Willis moment to save the day was gonna happen. I don't see where this window is where people are claiming they world could have been saved if only the westetn world was told.

    Now, moving on to the 31st of December and through to the 11 of January when the genome was circulated globally I still don't see this moment where the world could be saved and by whom. It was clear they still didn't know what it was and how contagious it was. The big banquet in Wuhan on the 19th shows that.

    Now, with all this info being global, for at least a few weeks now, why was European leaders still sitting around like chimps trying to fit the square piece through the tiangle hole in mid march.

    I am still failing to see where the lost window that the west would save the world and it would have been nipped in the bud where it started.

    Seems this virus was coming if we liked it or not and the more of these timelines that are produced the more clear it is.

    So at least now do understand that the Chinese lied to the international community and then tried to cover it up. That’s progress at least. Part of blame for this also lies with Europe and America as we failed to prepare properly even when we knew what was happening. The reason people are angry with the CCP really is that if the Chinese had realised they had a problem in early December or November they could have contained it.


  • #1565
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MadYaker wrote: »
    So at least now do understand that the Chinese lied to the international community and then tried to cover it up. That’s progress at least. Part of blame for this also lies with Europe and America as we failed to prepare properly even when we knew what was happening. The reason people are angry with the CCP really is that if the Chinese had realised they had a problem in early December or November they could have contained it.

    Once again (since my previous longer question was ignored).

    How? Be specific. (consider the lack of hindsight in your answer, perhaps?)


  • #1566
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You brought this up earlier. Strategically important. It's an incredibly vague thing to say. Can you be more specific? (And no, avoid military hardware since China doesn't do that for any western nation)



    Trump was trying that long before the virus happened. Make America great again... Remember when he was talking about American companies based in Ireland, and that they should return to the States? I think you'll find that if you start targeting China for foreign companies to pull out, Ireland (and other small nations) are going to get hurt too when American companies pull out.

    If Trump manages to get political support behind him along with financial aid for companies to return to the US, they'll leave Europe. Ireland is already quite expensive in terms of the cost of employees, so any kind of tax breaks would take away the advantages that Ireland provides. Especially, if there is domestic pressure on American companies to return to the US.

    I really wish people would consider the consequences of these kind of initiatives. Pushing for companies to pull out of China won't affect just China.. they'll affect any country recipient of foreign investment by private firms.

    Oh that's what the review is for - for example understanding what in the health care system is "strategically important" lets say antibiotics for sake of argument, understanding where these products are manufactured then ensuring that there is duopoly of supply across the entire supply chain which includes a Western source - really not rocket science.

    Yes there maybe an impact on Ireland but since US & Europe operate on similar rules so there will still be scope for Ireland. Also many of the US companies in Ireland do not do manufacturing but more of an EU sales operation. These will not be impacted.


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  • #1567
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I really wish people would consider the consequences of these kind of initiatives. Pushing for companies to pull out of China won't affect just China.. they'll affect any country recipient of foreign investment by private firms.

    I think Bob hopes it will be just confined to China. He fails to understand how big China is an both an exporter and an importer, and how any US protectionism will spread.

    The US isn't going to persuade Germany to abandon China, its biggests importer.

    Particularly if there is also a campaign against Germany goods over in the US, and Trump has accused Germany of unfairness in trade. Don't get me wrong, I am fully aware of how supine the EU is in relation to the bully boys, but I think if Trump tries to destroy germany and china at the same time, it will backfire.


  • #1568
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I'm in Ireland now. I have been here since mid January. Came home for a 3 week holiday, and got stuck due to covid.

    As for BS... if it is BS, then, surely you would be able to adequately argue against it? No? If so, I haven't seen you do it yet.

    As for being pro-CCP. I'm not. I'm just anti-stupidity, and willful ignorance. which this thread has in spades.

    Oh I have done that in the past and your obvious tactics of misrepresentation and deflection mean that it really is not worth it.


  • #1569
    BanditLuke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭BanditLuke


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You brought this up earlier. Strategically important. It's an incredibly vague thing to say. Can you be more specific? (And no, avoid military hardware since China doesn't do that for any western nation)



    Trump was trying that long before the virus happened. Make America great again... Remember when he was talking about American companies based in Ireland, and that they should return to the States? I think you'll find that if you start targeting China for foreign companies to pull out, Ireland (and other small nations) are going to get hurt too when American companies pull out.

    If Trump manages to get political support behind him along with financial aid for companies to return to the US, they'll leave Europe. Ireland is already quite expensive in terms of the cost of employees, so any kind of tax breaks would take away the advantages that Ireland provides. Especially, if there is domestic pressure on American companies to return to the US.

    I really wish people would consider the consequences of these kind of initiatives. Pushing for companies to pull out of China won't affect just China.. they'll affect any country recipient of foreign investment by private firms.

    I really China hadn't hidden the truth about this virus from the get go.


  • #1570
    cryptocurrency
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    MadYaker wrote: »
    So at least now do understand that the Chinese lied to the international community and then tried to cover it up. That’s progress at least. Part of blame for this also lies with Europe and America as we failed to prepare properly even when we knew what was happening. The reason people are angry with the CCP really is that if the Chinese had realised they had a problem in early December or November they could have contained it.

    Contain, how? The rest of the world watched it for months and no western nation has been able to contain it with months head start and countless more information.

    How?


  • #1571
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    FVP3 wrote: »
    I think Bob hopes it will be just confined to China. He fails to understand how big China is an both an exporter and an importer, and how any US protectionism will spread.

    The US isn't going to persuade Germany to abandon China, its biggests importer.

    Particularly if there is also a campaign against Germany goods over in the US, and Trump has accused Germany of unfairness in trade. Don't get me wrong, I am fully aware of how supine the EU is in relation to the bully boys, but I think if Trump tries to destroy germany and china at the same time, it will backfire.

    Why are you focussed on Trump and the US. This is what Macron said

    PARIS — France and Europe must rely less on China and massively increase local production of masks, ventilators and other "strategic" medical equipment necessary to fight the coronavirus pandemic, according to French President Emmanuel Macron.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-urges-massive-increase-in-local-production-of-medical-equipment/

    This is not just a short term reaction to the pandemic but the start of a strategic shift


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  • #1572
    BanditLuke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭BanditLuke


    FVP3 wrote: »
    When some other country annoys the US I am sure we will hear about that brutal regime, and still nothing about Saudi or any brutal regime the US supports.


    The US has been fighting "brutal regimes" for two decades now, killing millions in the process. Maga.

    The thread is about China not the US.

    I don't know why you are bringing MAGA into it. You do realize I despise Trump. Curious post.


  • #1573
    BanditLuke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,600 ✭✭✭BanditLuke


    cryptocurrency wrote: »
    Contain, how? The rest of the world watched it for months and no western nation has been able to contain it with months head start and countless more information.

    How?

    Why are you bringing other nations into it?

    The virus originated in China not Belgium, France, USA or Timbuktu. None of those nations are responsible for what happened and hiding the truth.

    Stop deflecting


  • #1574
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    MadYaker wrote: »
    So at least now do understand that the Chinese lied to the international community and then tried to cover it up.

    They didn't. The time to get information to the WHO, in Dec 31st, was faster than most diseases are catalogued.
    Part of blame for this also lies with Europe and America as we failed to prepare properly even when we knew what was happening. The reason people are angry with the CCP really is that if the Chinese had realised they had a problem in early December or November they could have contained it.

    There is no virus in the history of the world that has been contained in one country. The claim that the Chinese knew about it in early December is unfounded. Knowing people are sick isnt the same as knowing there is a novel virus.

    Theres also no real understanding about the local party in Wuhan , which did curtail the doctor, is not the same as the central government. In any case the disease was sequenced by early Jan and the WHO sent the information to its members, the Germans started on tests, the CDC tried their own solution, Trump called it a hoax.


  • #1575
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    cryptocurrency wrote: »
    Contain, how? The rest of the world watched it for months and no western nation has been able to contain it with months head start and countless more information.
    The Czechs have, as have the Slovaks.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #1576
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    Oh that's what the review is for - for example understanding what in the health care system is "strategically important" lets say antibiotics for sake of argument, understanding where these products are manufactured then ensuring that there is duopoly of supply across the entire supply chain which includes a Western source - really not rocket science.

    No, I agree it's not rocket science. Antibiotics. Fair enough. So, where are all the workers going to come from to fill these factories since salaries in most factories tend to be low, except for advance degree holders?

    Would you also be advocating for mass immigration of cheap workers to fill the need for these factory workers? (i'll just assume that you know the downsides to importing low skilled workers)
    Yes there maybe an impact on Ireland but since US & Europe operate on similar rules so there will still be scope for Ireland. Also many of the US companies in Ireland do not do manufacturing but more of an EU sales operation. These will not be impacted.

    What similar rules? You mean corporate law? And what do you mean by scope for Ireland... what you've just said is extremely vague.

    If Trump manages to convince US companies to return to the US, then all companies will be affected. America has been heading towards isolationism for some time now..


  • #1577
    cryptocurrency
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    Why are you focussed on Trump and the US. This is what Macron said

    PARIS — France and Europe must rely less on China and massively increase local production of masks, ventilators and other "strategic" medical equipment necessary to fight the coronavirus pandemic, according to French President Emmanuel Macron.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-urges-massive-increase-in-local-production-of-medical-equipment/

    This is not just a short term reaction to the pandemic but the start of a strategic shift

    He's 100% right. We will see a massive need for more indigenous manufacturing now. The US can turn inwards; the EU can and China can. Maybe Chinese people could be more patriotic with their purchase too and buy more Chinese brands...its what the Japanese did and later Koreans...Koreans out of a will not to buy Japanese built up some reasonably bad electronics and car companies right up through loyalty and building them up.
    If the world does turn inwards into blocks, this won't satisfy the Chinese haters as they will still be a powerhouse on their own markets. The time to out the Chinese genie back in the bottle was about 1995 and the ship has long sailed.

    Any new deglobalised world isn't going to make them go away like many wishes to see; they are still on a better trajectory than the US or EU.


  • #1578
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Good example of how US propaganda works.

    We were always at war with EastAsia.

    https://youtu.be/B0NhA4oBGuc


    Fox News should be renamed the Ministry of Truth.


  • #1579
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    Oh I have done that in the past and your obvious tactics of misrepresentation and deflection mean that it really is not worth it.

    More vague rubbish. Do you ever really engage in a debate or discussion with something other than some kind of dismissal of posters, or some vague and empty objection? :rolleyes: (perhaps you should reread your contributions to the thread over the last ten or so pages as a reminder)


  • #1580
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    The health system will be de-globalised, that not much different from how we protect agriculture, but that will be about it.


  • #1581
    cryptocurrency
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    Wibbs wrote: »
    The Czechs have, as have the Slovaks.

    Slovaks yeah, very poor tourist football, a fairly broke country and not that much international exposure.

    Czech have been much more exposed then compared to Slovakia and performed badly compared to Mongolia.

    And before you start, stand outside the president's house in Bratislava with the guards and are all the missing coble locking, graffiti, smashed curbs, ....its a disgrace for a central European nation. I've not seem such prominent buildings in a "capital" in such disrepair in any capital outside parts of the Balkans.


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  • #1582
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wibbs wrote: »
    The Czechs have, as have the Slovaks.

    It's not containment though. It's not containing a virus within it's borders and successfully preventing the spread to other countries.... It's keeping the virus out. There's a difference, especially considering the strain on health and security services depending on the scenario.


  • #1583
    cryptocurrency
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    FVP3 wrote: »
    Good example of how US propaganda works.

    We were always at war with EastAsia.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKbwDf51bA


    Fox News should be renamed the Ministry of Truth.


    Link doesn't work, be interested in seeing that.


  • #1584
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    Oh I have done that in the past and your obvious tactics of misrepresentation and deflection mean that it really is not worth it.

    You haven't given any clue at all that you understand how integrated China is in the world economy, or how it could be removed.


  • #1585
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Deleted User wrote: »
    No, I agree it's not rocket science. Antibiotics. Fair enough. So, where are all the workers going to come from to fill these factories since salaries in most factories tend to be low, except for advance degree holders?

    Would you also be advocating for mass immigration of cheap workers to fill the need for these factory workers? (i'll just assume that you know the downsides to importing low skilled workers)



    What similar rules? You mean corporate law? And what do you mean by scope for Ireland... what you've just said is extremely vague.

    If Trump manages to convince US companies to return to the US, then all companies will be affected. America has been heading towards isolationism for some time now..

    Why not check the unemployment rates in some European countries and that is before the CCP unleashed Covid on it.

    If we are bringing up isolationism, let's get back to China.

    https://mspoweruser.com/china-replace-windows-pcs/


  • #1586
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    FVP3 wrote: »
    You haven't given any clue at all that you understand how integrated China is in the world economy, or how it could be removed.

    Well we are soon going to find out.


  • #1587
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    Why not check the unemployment rates in some European countries and that is before the CCP unleashed Covid on it.

    If we are bringing up isolationism, let's get back to China.

    https://mspoweruser.com/china-replace-windows-pcs/

    What is that an answer to exactly? Its just meaningless words.

    Please explain how China can be removed from the world economy.


  • #1588
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,296 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    Oh I think after this there will be a drastic review of the relationship of both the definition of what is strategically important for the West and also a review of the relationship between China and the West. Neither of these will go well for China.

    Ultimately companies will be "encouraged" to bring manufacturing back to the West.
    And if they do costs will go way up. We need to recreate the infrastructure for a start, never mind training people up in skills mostly lost. Places like Germany could do it, mainly because they never really lost those skills and infrastructure. Ireland not so much, as we never really had them. The industrial revolution was only present in small amounts in the north east of the island.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #1589
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    Why not check the unemployment rates in some European countries and that is before the CCP unleashed Covid on it.

    If we are bringing up isolationism, let's get back to China.

    https://mspoweruser.com/china-replace-windows-pcs/

    What China is doing is closer to self-sufficiency for technology, since they believe the US government is doing the same as the Chinese do. ie. spyware within technological devices. That's not isolationalism.

    As for unemployment rates... have a look at the type of foreign companies in China. European companies lean heavily towards the manufacture and maintenance of cars or other forms of transportation. There's little actual European presence except in cofounded (half-chinese/half-european) companies which they can't withdraw from.

    Whereas American companies make up the bulk of the companies engaged in manufacturing within China. You really think they're going to be encouraging Europeans to move to the US for employment? They already have a very large low cost base of employees in their own poor, and immigrants.


  • #1590
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    Well we are soon going to find out.

    No we aren't, Bob. If the US does this, it goes alone.

    Some homework:

    Find out what country is Germany's biggest trading partner.

    Explain how US producers can move their manufacturing from China in any kind of orderly fashion. You can use Apple as an example. Google "Tim Cook Chinese Process engineers" or "Steve Jobs the jobs are not coming back".

    Explain the effect on the rest of the Asian supply chain and the interlinking manufacturing that goes on there if China is removed from the global economy. Explain why the other Asian countries would agree to it.

    Investigate the term BRICS. Follow up: What percentage of the world economy is accounted for by the BRICS. Is it bigger than the US? hint: it is.


    As another helpful tip: I have done the Apple answer myself, so you can seach my posts for that


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  • #1591
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Funny fact: I protested against globalisation when many of the anti-Chinese posters on here wouldnt no doubt have dismissed me as a smelly long haired drug addled hippy, only some of which was true.


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