The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

20-04-2020 12:07AM

VinLieger wrote: »

Okay lets draw comparisons, even the US is ahead of the UK on tests per million and their testing was a cluster**** to begin with where they spent weeks designing their own tests that didn't work.

The first cases found in the UK were only 10 days after the US. The UK started rolling out its testing on Feb 26th while the US tests were still massively limited on March 9th

Why are the UK so far behind vs the US on testing considering the monumental mess the US made of starting testing?

Reagents, or the lack thereof.

VinLieger · 20-04-2020 12:20AM

Aegir wrote: »

Reagents, or the lack thereof.

So the UK is just worse than everyone else at securing the reagents required? Even with the shortage other countries of similar sizes and larger are flying ahead of them on tests per million.

devnull · 20-04-2020 12:32AM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Yeah noticed that alright. That's clear straw man stuff right there. I mentioned some time back that they'd brought Isaac Levido back into the fold with the brief to run the corona pr like an election campaign. And this is what they're clearly delivering, attack, attack, attack.

Oh, and you're spot on too about the DHSC being used this way to fight downing streets bloody battles. Civil servants should be furious about that.

Similar article now been released attacking the FT and Peter Foster on Twitter:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/response-to-ft-article-and-twitter-thread-by-peter-foster

Spin doctors working overtime it seems, quite a few non answers and deflection and things taken out of context and generic statements issues without actually answering the claim at hand.

Another favourite

Claim:
Two out of the UK’s three main ventilator makers told the Financial Times their contact with government officials only began in mid-March, around the same time as the general appeal.

Response
Throughout this public health emergency, the NHS has always had spare ventilator capacity for patients. The NHS has been liaising with suppliers since February and the Ventilator Challenge has involved work with manufacturers around the clock to increase ventilator supply.

You will notice again, they do not deny the accusation and go off on a generic reply about suppliers. If what the FT said was incorrect, they could just have said that 'All three of the UK's main ventilator makers have been liasing with the government since February. But they didn't. Why. Because that would not be true.

The UK really is going full Trump, I expect them to start threatening the press and broadcasters soon if they do not fall into line. With the UK leaving EU rules at the end of the year, the country risks seriously being turned into the US.

BonnieSituation · 20-04-2020 12:34AM

Aegir wrote: »

which bit of "They are in the ONS data" was confusing?

So they're not announcing them as part of the regular announcements? You have to go searching for them.

I see.

So the answer is no then.

McGiver · 20-04-2020 02:04AM

http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/covid19/18apr2020/deaths-eu-norm-large.png

Death statistics need to be interpreted with care, as no two countries have the same criteria for what is actually reported as a COVID19 death, or when those deaths are reported. As far as I can tell, the death statistics on this graph are as follows.

Italy: mostly does not include people who died outside hospitals.

Spain: mostly does not include nursing homes, as only includes confirmed cases, and most nursing home deaths were not tested.

France: does include nursing homes - as of 14th April, 29% of deaths occurred in nursing homes

UK: does not include nursing homes - as of 3rd April, likely somewhere between 18% and 34% were not in the original daily gov.uk statistics, likely meaning they occurred outside hospitals. Data is only available up til 3rd April because deaths outside hospitals take time to be registered. In Scotland, only 62% of deaths were in hospitals.

Belgium: does include nursing homes - as of 12th April, 42% of deaths occured in nursing homes.

Germany does include deaths that occur outside of hospitals, including in nursing homes. Every person who was infected with COVID-19 and died is reported irrespective of whether COVID-19 was the cause of death.

Netherlands: appears to only include hospital deaths. My understanding is that only confirmed positive patients are counted as COVID-19 deaths, and that testing is mostly happening in hospitals, so deaths elsewhere are not confirmed.

Ireland: includes nursing homes. As of 14th April, 46% of deaths occurred in nursing homes.

Norway: records all deaths, whether in hospitals, nursing homes or at home. Less than half of COVID-19 deaths in Norway were in hospitals.

Sweden: does include nursing homes. in Stockholm (where most cases are) nursing homes or care homes account for 40% of all deaths.

So Germany, France and Belgium include care home deaths while the UK (England) does not. Germany includes all deaths and has done massive testing.

This means actual UK death rate per capita when accounted for deaths outside of hospitals is 3rd worst in Europe on par with Spain or Italy and at least 10 times worse than Germany.

blinding · 20-04-2020 06:31AM

Water John wrote: »

This is a regular post by this poster. = Look over there.

So , The British Labour Party are not a Laughing Stock:D:D:D

There are No Clowns in Britain outside the Labour Party ! Impossible to Compete !

Look at the hammering the British Labour Party took at the Last General Election:D:D:D

blinding · 20-04-2020 06:46AM

McGiver wrote: »

http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/covid19/18apr2020/deaths-eu-norm-large.png

So Germany, France and Belgium include care home deaths while the UK (England) does not. Germany includes all deaths and has done massive testing.

This means actual UK death rate per capita when accounted for deaths outside of hospitals is 3rd worst in Europe on par with Spain or Italy and at least 10 times worse than Germany.

But how reliable are the Germans ! Its not exactly a Country with a History of being Trustworthy !

declanflynn · 20-04-2020 07:02AM

Aegir wrote: »

Sky news summed it up earlier when talking about the daily press conferences with either the PM or senior ministers. The government lost control of the story.

This allowed a narrative to start that they had no control over.

Its funny when one reads earlier posts on this thread from our english friends

LuckyLloyd · 20-04-2020 07:14AM

McGiver wrote: »

http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/covid19/18apr2020/deaths-eu-norm-large.png

So Germany, France and Belgium include care home deaths while the UK (England) does not. Germany includes all deaths and has done massive testing.

This means actual UK death rate per capita when accounted for deaths outside of hospitals is 3rd worst in Europe on par with Spain or Italy and at least 10 times worse than Germany.

Once again, i note that the significant rise of all cause mortality in the UK during Q1 is the best indicator of the covid 19 impact allowed to take hold:

https://www.actuaries.org.uk/news-and-insights/news/deaths-attributable-covid-19

Peregrinus · 20-04-2020 07:59AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Once again, i note that the significant rise of all cause mortality in the UK during Q1 is the best indicator of the covid 19 impact allowed to take hold:

https://www.actuaries.org.uk/news-and-insights/news/deaths-attributable-covid-19

It's a very significant datum. But, two points:

1. As this stage its a very provisional datum. Typically you won't have really solid excess death figures until well after the end of the period you are studying. Right now it's one to watch, but I think not one to draw any definitive conclusions from.

2. If you are interested in comparing the UK experience with that of other countries, then of course this datum is of no use for that purpose unless you have the same datum for the comparator countries.

Peregrinus · 20-04-2020 08:03AM

blinding wrote: »

So , The British Labour Party are not a Laughing Stock:D:D:D

There are No Clowns in Britain outside the Labour Party ! Impossible to Compete !

Look at the hammering the British Labour Party took at the Last General Election:D:D:D

Blinding, in this post you do exactly what Water John accuses you of doing. It's like calling in an airstrike on your own position.

blinding wrote: »

But how reliable are the Germans ! Its not exactly a Country with a History of being Trustworthy !

On the efficiency of its bureaucratic process and the reliablity of its official statistics? It bloody is. Famous for it. Who told you otherwise? You should never, ever listen to anything that person ever says to you again on any subject, because they are making you look like a fool and presumably that's not the impression you're aiming to create here.

LuckyLloyd · 20-04-2020 08:31AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's a very significant datum. But, two points:

1. As this stage its a very provisional datum. Typically you won't have really solid excess death figures until well after the end of the period you are studying. Right now it's one to watch, but I think not one to draw any definitive conclusions from.

2. If you are interested in comparing the UK experience with that of other countries, then of course this datum is of no use for that purpose unless you have the same datum for the comparator countries.

So I think the actuarial society were declaring Q1 impacts on April 14 in the specific link I added. But they update mortality tables on a weekly basis. Ultimately - given the politicisation of covid 19 reporting - it will be the figure I’ll return to at intervals.

The second point is a good one. I’m sure the info is out there for other EU countries...

20-04-2020 08:51AM

VinLieger wrote: »

So the UK is just worse than everyone else at securing the reagents required? Even with the shortage other countries of similar sizes and larger are flying ahead of them on tests per million.

Worse than who exactly?

France, Netherlands, US, Ireland are all having difficulties ramping up testing due to the lack of reagents. This has even led to the Dutch accusing Roche and the Swiss of hording them and not selling to other countries.

https://www.ftm.nl/artikelen/test-test-test-only-if-it-pleases-roche

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/health/covid-19-testing-irish-pharma-firms-source-raw-material-to-make-reagent-1.4221266%3Fmode%3Damp

VinLieger · 20-04-2020 08:57AM

blinding wrote: »

But how reliable are the Germans ! Its not exactly a Country with a History of being Trustworthy !

Yeah cus perfidious albion are a beacon of trust worthiness, enough with the whataboutery

20-04-2020 08:57AM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So they're not announcing them as part of the regular announcements? You have to go searching for them.

I see.

So the answer is no then.

No, the ONS has done all the searching for you. You just have to read the report.

20-04-2020 08:59AM

declanflynn wrote: »

Its funny when one reads earlier posts on this thread from our english friends

Why, what is funny about that and what does my nationality have to do with anything?

20-04-2020 09:01AM

VinLieger wrote: »

Yeah cus perfidious albion are a beacon of trust worthiness, enough with the whataboutery

Perfidious Albion?

I thought this was thread about the genuine concern for Irish relatives living and working in the uk and the actions of the uk government.

Enzokk · 20-04-2020 09:03AM

blinding wrote: »

But how reliable are the Germans ! Its not exactly a Country with a History of being Trustworthy !

And deflect again off the UK response. Let's make that comparison between the UK and Germany then, who would you like to lead your country during a pandemic?

https://twitter.com/BenjAlvarez1/status/1250563198081740800?s=20

Or,

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1251834826811998209?s=20

So who do you think will be more trustworthy when it comes to this, the idiot that tells you to shake hands with everyone? Or the scientist who does what theological wants the UK to do, lead with the facts?

blinding · 20-04-2020 09:15AM

VinLieger wrote: »

Yeah cus perfidious albion are a beacon of trust worthiness, enough with the whataboutery

I wouldn’t trust the Brits, Nor would I trust The Germans. Both Countries have form .

theological · 20-04-2020 09:18AM

We've had this level of information from the chief medical officer and scientific officer and their deputies in the press briefings. That's primarily who I am listening to every day. Not the politicians so much.

blinding · 20-04-2020 09:18AM

Enzokk wrote: »

And deflect again off the UK response. Let's make that comparison between the UK and Germany then, who would you like to lead your country during a pandemic?

https://twitter.com/BenjAlvarez1/status/1250563198081740800?s=20

Or,

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1251834826811998209?s=20

So who do you think will be more trustworthy when it comes to this, the idiot that tells you to shake hands with everyone? Or the scientist who does what theological wants the UK to do, lead with the facts?

I have no interest in the Germans or the British leading my Country.

Neither are trustworthy , as they have proved time and time again through out History.

Peregrinus · 20-04-2020 09:19AM

Enzokk wrote: »

And deflect again off the UK response. Let's make that comparison between the UK and Germany then, who would you like to lead your country during a pandemic?

Oh, c'mon, that's hardly a fair comparison. Germany is led by one of the most highly-regarded statespersons in Europe; the UK by a man who, it is generally agreed, has missed his true calling as the back end of a pantomime horse.

Obviously everyone would prefer to be led by Merkel. It isn't the fault of the UK that they weren't offered the choice of being led by Merkel, or by anyone of comparable stature; it was Johnson or Corbyn, which must have been a profoundly depressing choice to have to make. Fair to ask why that was the choice, but off-otpic for this thread, which isn't about why the quality of political leadership in the UK is so poor, but specifically about the UK's response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

We might reasonably ask this question: given the appalling quality of political leadership in the UK, how has the nation, rather than the government, responded to the pandemic?

Professor Moriarty · 20-04-2020 09:28AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Oh, c'mon, that's hardly a fair comparison. Germany is led by one of the most highly-regarded statespersons in Europe; the UK by a man who, it is generally agreed, has missed his true calling as the back end of a pantomime horse.

Obviously everyone would prefer to be led by Merkel. It isn't the fault of the UK that they weren't offered the choice of being led by Merkel, or by anyone of comparable stature; it was Johnson or Corbyn, which must have been a profoundly depressing choice to have to make. Fair to ask why that was the choice, but off-otpic for this thread, which isn't about why the quality of political leadership in the UK is so poor, but specifically about the UK's response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

We might reasonably ask this question: given the appalling quality of political leadership in the UK, how has the nation, rather than the government, responded to the pandemic?

It's not for the nation to respond it is for the government. Of course they elected a bunch of nationalistic right wing loons but, as you say, the alternative wasn't exactly stellar. However, the responsibility for this awful mess lies squarely at the feet of the Tory government. The UK will have the most deaths per capita in Europe by a country mile. That's down to government incompetence, lies and lack of leadership.

British English people aren't more stupid than other people. They've been mislead and deceived for decades and this government is the result. And the criminal lack of leadership in this crisis is that government's fault.

Keyzer · 20-04-2020 09:34AM

blinding wrote: »

I have no interest in the Germans or the British leading my Country.

Neither are trustworthy , as they have proved time and time again through out History.

I believe the question put to you was of a rhetorical nature. You might want to look up the meaning of that word for your future nonsensical arguments.

blinding · 20-04-2020 09:37AM

Keyzer wrote: »

I believe the question put to you was of a rhetorical nature. You might want to look up the meaning of that word for your future nonsensical arguments.

Thanks , but, No Thanks to the Germans or the British. We have see more than enough of both in action through out History.

bilston · 20-04-2020 09:40AM

Enzokk wrote: »

Anybody here can offer clarity on the UK death figures? Sky has it that 596 people have died according to the government. Their breakdown for the regions are as follows,

England - 482
Wales - 41
Scotland - 10

What the heck is happening with their figures? They aren't telling us that 63 people died in NI in one day, so why are the figures not collating to their breakdowns? Or have we just seen a massive spike in deaths in a country smaller than ours and only in hospital settings?

When did 63 people die in one day in Northern Ireland from Covid 19?

Seth Brundle · 20-04-2020 09:45AM

bilston wrote: »

When did 63 people die in one day in Northern Ireland from Covid 19?

I think that’s what they’re questioning!
Sky’s numbers don’t reconcile

Joe_ Public · 20-04-2020 10:00AM

theological wrote: »

We've had this level of information from the chief medical officer and scientific officer and their deputies in the press briefings. That's primarily who I am listening to every day. Not the politicians so much.

Did you see Jenny Harries at yesterday's briefing? If so, what did you make of her contribution?

Leroy42 · 20-04-2020 10:07AM

theological wrote: »

We've had this level of information from the chief medical officer and scientific officer and their deputies in the press briefings. That's primarily who I am listening to every day. Not the politicians so much.

I am wondering, Theo, has the Sunday Times report made you have any rethink on your belief that the UK government response has been fine?

bilston · 20-04-2020 11:00AM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I think that’s what they’re questioning!
Sky’s numbers don’t reconcile

Ah right, got it now!

I was thinking I had missed something rather dramatic!

The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

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