The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

meeeeh · 19-04-2020 12:10AM

blinding wrote: »

The British Labour Party are a Laughing Stock.

Hopefully it wil be better now. Electoral system like in UK needs decent opposition party. There is no denial that Tories are soley responsible for this but it didn't help that Corbyn was doing his long goodbye and the rest of Labour was busy with internal stuff to notice what was going on.

I actually find it distasteful that people are clapping and cheering NHS and carers while they go to work without proper equipment and still support government. It's like: 'how marvelous you are going to die doing your job. Now chop chop back to work.' People in UK should be livid with what is going on and how unprepared they were. There should be protests not clapping.

Water John · 19-04-2020 12:15AM

blinding wrote: »

The British Labour Party are a Laughing Stock.

This is a regular post by this poster. = Look over there.

FVP3 · 19-04-2020 12:15AM

threeball wrote: »

You're only liked as long as the media tolerate you. As soon as they decide you're sh1t and need to go it wont be long til the public turn. All it takes is a few weeks of sustained attack. Trump survives because the media there wouldn't attack their own if he was drowning kittens in the White House water feature.

Trump has been attacked more ( and deservedly so) by most of the media than any other president I can remember. Even Fox didnt support him during this campagin.

threeball · 19-04-2020 12:20AM

FVP3 wrote: »

Trump has been attacked more ( and deservedly so) by most of the media than any other president I can remember. Even Fox didnt support him during this campagin.

Fox is well back on side now and he has enough other cheerleaders to keep his base happy. In somewhere like the UK the entire media can turn against you and you won't survive that. Despite what people say they are swayed by headlines.

PommieBast · 19-04-2020 12:31AM

meeeeh wrote: »

Johnson is liked so you can have all the warnings you want and they would be ignored. He got to power by carefully crafting the Boris persona for years/decades. That being said how bad must be opposition if someone like Boris manages to get such a majority.

Back in mid-2019 I thought that he would get power in a way that is not actually that far from Rise and Rise of Michael Rimmer - election fatigue is gold dust for people like him.

FVP3 · 19-04-2020 12:40AM

threeball wrote: »

Fox is well back on side now and he has enough other cheerleaders to keep his base happy. In somewhere like the UK the entire media can turn against you and you won't survive that. Despite what people say they are swayed by headlines.

Well I agree there, the attacks on Corbyn were relentless.

ArmaniJeanss · 19-04-2020 01:21AM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It doesn't matter who it is, the Tánaiste had a very clear constitutional role as the "Deputy Prime minister".

The leading coalition can "regard" all it wants.

The authority comes from the constitution. It is purely not ceremonial.

Believe it meant anything? Are you saying that constitutional articles can be meaningless if you believe hard enough?

Yes, I'm saying that if something had happened to 'permanently incapacitate' Enda Kenny in 2015, that the then Tanaiste Joan Burton would have had no effective power to act as Taoiseach regardless of what the Constitution says about the role. She could chair meetings to her hearts content, but would have no authority.
The Council of State (also part of the Constitution) would likely have advised the president of this imo.
Potentially a constitutional crisis, though we tend to sort these things out quite civilly.

The USA system, where no-one could be any doubt that Pence would assume the role with full authority is clearly different imo.

But hey, I seem to be in a minority of one thinking the office of An Tanaiste is in real terms close to meaningless, so I could well be wrong.

timetogo1 · 19-04-2020 07:04AM

AllForIt wrote: »

If this is true it is understandable that Hancock did not wish to say publicly that the UK offered PPE products were basically rubbish.

edit: Hancock saying that he responded to the UK offers imply's that he turned them down.

Sure, Hancock didn't want to embarrass rubbish suppliers. The UK government aren't known for blaming anybody else.

As to Nadines suggestion that they probably didn't meet standards, what standards are being met now when medical professionals are told to reuse their PPE?

Peregrinus · 19-04-2020 07:43AM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Yes, I'm saying that if something had happened to 'permanently incapacitate' Enda Kenny in 2015, that the then Tanaiste Joan Burton would have had no effective power to act as Taoiseach regardless of what the Constitution says about the role. She could chair meetings to her hearts content, but would have no authority.
The Council of State (also part of the Constitution) would likely have advised the president of this imo.
Potentially a constitutional crisis, though we tend to sort these things out quite civilly.

The USA system, where no-one could be any doubt that Pence would assume the role with full authority is clearly different imo.

But hey, I seem to be in a minority of one thinking the office of An Tanaiste is in real terms close to meaningless, so I could well be wrong.

I think you are wrong. Constitutionally, if the Taoiseach dies or becomes permanently incapacitated, the Tanaiste can exercise all the functions of the Taoiseach - both constitutional functions and statutory functions - until a new Taoiseach is appointed. And, equally importantly, only the Tanaiste can do so; no-one else can.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that a Tanaiste in these circumstances would lack "authority". You could argue that the Tanaiste lacked the desirable degree of democratic mandate, but (a) that's quite different, (b) it's probably unavoidable, in the circumstances, (c) it's no business of the Council of State and I cannot see why they would become involved, and (d) it certainly doesn't make for a constitutional crisis.

Joe_ Public · 19-04-2020 08:48AM

Fair dues to Sophy Ridge for nailing slippery Gove down on the testing target there. Took about 3 minutes of waffle before she got the straight answer to a very simple question.

Joe_ Public · 19-04-2020 08:58AM

Interesting Gove then dismisses Sunday Times story as "wildly off beam" but doesnt refute claim that Johnson skipped 5 cobra meetings. Says you only had to look at what happened to Boris to know he was obviously providing great inspiring leadership. Hmm, that's some fairly weak sauce right there.

Enzokk · 19-04-2020 09:00AM

I expect the UK Government to claim success on the 100 000 tests per day because they will claim the capacity is there to do 100 000 per day. I also expect the number of tests performed to be way less than their stated target and the excuses used will be much the same as now, people aren't putting themselves up to be tested or something to that degree. The real reasons, probably that the testing target will only be met if all testers work 24 hours per day and take no breaks at all, will be waved away as anti-British and those criticizing the NHS.

Joe_ Public · 19-04-2020 09:19AM

They can try the capacity angle but Gove was crystal clear there after waffling on about capacity for several minutes Ridge asked him to clarify was it 100,000 tests or 100,000 capacity and he had to concede it was tests. No wiggle room there.

On Marr felt he was a bit dismissive of Sunday Times story there, saying its great to have hindsight. But by the time Johnson was missing cobra meetings WHO had declared a global emergency, on 30 january iirc. That's not really hindsight, is it?

theological · 19-04-2020 09:52AM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

They can try the capacity angle but Gove was crystal clear there after waffling on about capacity for several minutes Ridge asked him to clarify was it 100,000 tests or 100,000 capacity and he had to concede it was tests. No wiggle room there.

On Marr felt he was a bit dismissive of Sunday Times story there, saying its great to have hindsight. But by the time Johnson was missing cobra meetings WHO had declared a global emergency, on 30 january iirc. That's not really hindsight, is it?

To be fair Richard Horton at the Lancet was also saying it wasn't a big deal at the end of January.

We can't expect politicians to have more foresight than scientists. I think it shows that there was little understanding generally of the danger of the virus at the end of January. Countries like South Korea were possibly more aware due to their proximity with China.

I'd agree with the sentiment that Marr was giving.

RobMc59 · 19-04-2020 09:58AM

Enzokk wrote: »

I expect the UK Government to claim success on the 100 000 tests per day because they will claim the capacity is there to do 100 000 per day. I also expect the number of tests performed to be way less than their stated target and the excuses used will be much the same as now, people aren't putting themselves up to be tested or something to that degree. The real reasons, probably that the testing target will only be met if all testers work 24 hours per day and take no breaks at all, will be waved away as anti-British and those criticizing the NHS.

Do you have any evidence of this or is it just a 'feeling in your water '.

alchemist33 · 19-04-2020 10:15AM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Interesting Gove then dismisses Sunday Times story as "wildly off beam" but doesnt refute claim that Johnson skipped 5 cobra meetings. Says you only had to look at what happened to Boris to know he was obviously providing great inspiring leadership. Hmm, that's some fairly weak sauce right there.

You're being too kind. It's rank stupidity to equate being flippant, or even "courageous" as one poster said here about him, with the virus to leadership. Leaders are supposed to be smarter than most of us. They should have been keeping themselves safe and modelling social distancing whilst leading (at least the Irish government did that), not heading the charge of the light brigade.

The Times article is very specific on what happened and it's a damning indictment of the British government, including its scientific advisers', response. Singapore survived well by implementing a version of the British plan. The British didn't have the capacity or will to implement their own plan.

Joe_ Public · 19-04-2020 10:20AM

theological wrote: »

To be fair Richard Horton at the Lancet was also saying it wasn't a big deal at the end of January.

We can't expect politicians to have more foresight than scientists. I think it shows that there was little understanding generally of the danger of the virus at the end of January. Countries like South Korea were possibly more aware due to their proximity with China.

I'd agree with the sentiment that Marr was giving.

Not so little understanding that it was declared a global emergency though. Nobody is claiming very many governments absolutely nailed it, clearly not, but there's a sliding scale of how it was downplayed and i dont see uk anywhere in top half on that. Gove now on marr spinning it that sure johnson would never be at the cobra meetings anyway. "Grotesque," to even suggest he was caught napping. Why didnt he explain that on ridge earlier if that was the case, or is he making it up as he goes along?

bilston · 19-04-2020 10:30AM

I've often been fairly defensive of the UK govt on this thread on somethings, but today's Sunday Times is shocking.

It really sounds as though a combination of Boris Johnson's private life, devotion to Brexit and a failure on their part to grasp the severity of the situation has proved deadly to thousands of people.

Johnson has always wanted to be Churchill and instead has ended up being Chamberlain. At least Chamberlain's failures came from an honest place.

Joe_ Public · 19-04-2020 10:32AM

Goves claim to marr that the prime minister wouldnt be expected to attend cobra meetings really does sound quite incredible to me. By their nature, meetings to discuss issues of national or pan national crisis, seriously what pm would be absenting himself from multiple cobra meetings as a situation intensifies.

I know it's the Sun but this at least seems pretty sure that cobra meetings would "usually" be attended by the pm.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3160375/what-is-cobra-meaning/

From another source on cobra meetings:

"Who is on the Cobra committee?
There are no set members for the committee as it changes depending on the situation the Government is dealing with.

The name refers to the location of the meeting, not a particular set of people. The Prime Minister always chairs the meeting."

Michael Gove is lying again. Surprised marr wasnt able to pick him up on that, usually sharp enough on these things.

Enzokk · 19-04-2020 10:39AM

theological wrote: »

To be fair Richard Horton at the Lancet was also saying it wasn't a big deal at the end of January.

We can't expect politicians to have more foresight than scientists. I think it shows that there was little understanding generally of the danger of the virus at the end of January. Countries like South Korea were possibly more aware due to their proximity with China.

I'd agree with the sentiment that Marr was giving.

A lot of countries were downplaying the threat in January on the advice of the experts. I believe Germany had much the same classification as the UK and they also seemed the downplay the threat at the end of January, comparing it to the flu outbreak they had in 2018. But this is not just about the slow realization of the seriousness, it is what the reaction of the countries were once the reality of the virus became known.

https://finanzmarktwelt.de/dirk-mueller-coronavirus-handelt-die-bundesregierung-fahrlaessig-155561/

RobMc59 wrote: »

Do you have any evidence of this or is it just a 'feeling in your water '.

If I had evidence I would post it with a link, if I post words like, "I expect" or "I think" then it is my opinion. I wouldn't want to try and look smart after the event by posting I knew they would do something, I am putting my prediction out there on what is going to happen when the UK hasn't tested 100 000 people as they have been saying they will.

Good news, we will be receiving the facts in a transparent way later today as the UK Government will be sending out a reply to the Sunday Times story.

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1251780013340459010?s=20

Joe_ Public · 19-04-2020 11:12AM

Here's gove defending Johnson missing 5 cobra meetings, claiming pm doesnt normally attend them. Having trawled the records i cant find many instances where either May or Cameron werent in attendance for cobra meetings. In fact, cameron has a line in his book about Johnson pissing him off by always being late for cobra meetings so it appears to be a long standing condition.

https://twitter.com/BFforthewin/status/1251814004911112193?s=20

devnull · 19-04-2020 11:12AM

Iain Duncan Smith on Sky News just now, words fail me, honestly, he's gone full Trump.

Presenter asked a question, IDS gave a generic statement blaming China and the WHO rather than answering the question, saying that the WHO didn't really do anything in January, despite the fact the WHO declared it as a world emergency the same month, presenter pointed it out and IDS gets very very angry.

Scroll back to 11:08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Auq9mYxFEE

Just contradicted Gove in an interview on Sky News just now - “every country has identical PPE equipment”. Also accuses WHO of lying and saying that the government have not done anything wrong.

Presenter wasn't allowing him to bully his way through the interview and challenged him.

KingofSheep · 19-04-2020 11:19AM

Just sat in my flat here in east London and have a pretty decent view of the canal just off Victoria Park. The number of people out jogging, walking dogs or just aimlessly wandering in such tight confined spaces you'd swear it was business as usual. Its sickening. Being an NHS worker, I just despair.

Joe_ Public · 19-04-2020 11:21AM

IDS also trotting out Goves cobra spin. Very transparent.

As for ppe, where was Gove getting the 220,000 figure from? As this tweet rightly points out, it was 650,000 and it came from a downing st press release.

https://twitter.com/owencocoefc/status/1251816000716234752?s=20

devnull · 19-04-2020 11:25AM

IDS Meltdown after presenter wouldn't allow him to pass off fake news as fact and also was avoiding answering questions by making general statements about the WHO and China.

https://twitter.com/JohnCon75779360/status/1251817400099627008

Dave0301 · 19-04-2020 11:27AM

IDS came across quite badly there, even by his standards :pac:

"Is it quite right of you to ask questions..." and he then proceeds to dodge the question asked and not give an answer to it.

Between his reaction and Gove's it appears that The Times article has píssed them off.

The issue with care homes is also getting a lot of coverage here this morning.

Harry Palmr · 19-04-2020 11:30AM

I'd love to know if Raab, Sunak etc will be actually glad to have Johnson back when he returns or if they think they'll be better off without his "leadership"

Joe_ Public · 19-04-2020 11:31AM

Think they're getting rattled because it's more they're own putting the squeeze on them and they dont like it up em, cant just dismiss it as the usual lefty anti government bias. Lamentable some of the counter spin they're putting out this morning.

devnull · 19-04-2020 11:43AM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Think they're getting rattled because it's more they're own putting the squeeze on them and they dont like it up em, cant just dismiss it as the usual lefty anti government bias. Lamentable some of the counter spin they're putting out this morning.

The trouble is though, that as much as interviewers are starting to hold these liars to account, the kind of people who are supporting Johnson are just as likely to agree with IDS and MG so most of the governments supporters will still support them and the only people who agree with me and you are the ones who already did before the lies being openly stated.

I've looked at the reaction on twitter and generally it's a mix between people who are praising the journalists for not letting them get away with things and holding to them account and people claiming that the mainstream media have it in for the government. Interestingly these are the same kind of people who would also be supporters of Trump, very pro-Brexit and also a fair few of them seemed to be involved in spreading conspiracy theories.

So whilst it's good to see some of these people being held to account, I don't see it making a huge amount of difference to converting people over from one side of the argument to another as people's beliefs are too entrenched, their opinions are based on confirmation bias - they think that Boris is doing a good job so therefore IDS/MG must be telling truth, what the facts are doesn't even come into it for these people.

theological · 19-04-2020 11:56AM

KingofSheep wrote: »

Just sat in my flat here in east London and have a pretty decent view of the canal just off Victoria Park. The number of people out jogging, walking dogs or just aimlessly wandering in such tight confined spaces you'd swear it was business as usual. Its sickening. Being an NHS worker, I just despair.

Going outside at all is a risk. It is a calculated risk however. If I stay inside for the vast majority of the time bar going for a walk or going for a run or going to the supermarket for necessities I still have reduced social contact by well over 95%. That will still be effective in reducing the spread. Provided people are constantly moving the risk of the virus spreading is minimal.

It's worth pointing out that the time the strictest measures can be in place is limited. We're seeing other countries in Europe reducing the restrictions. At most I can only see the UK extending it beyond the next bank holiday. The government need to use the time that we are giving them to come up with other solutions including contact tracing and rolling out the app. Political pressure will increase. That's true in respect to Ireland too.

As Angela Merkel has been telling the German people we will need to learn how to adapt and live with the virus. Shielding the most vulnerable will need to continue but these measures won't be kept in their strictest form until there is a vaccine.

The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

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