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The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

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Comments

  • #3422
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,088 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I don't think current crisis is just reflection of quality of health services around the world. I roll my eyes at wonderful NHS statements. They are repeated because as Johnson realised they bring votes. Nhs or HSE or any other health system is as good as policies supporting it in this pandemic.

    NHS is not as good as British think but it's not bad. Mainly they were let down by politicians.

    Generally nothing is as good as the British think it is.

    Exceptionalism is what they're best at.


  • #3423
    RobMc59
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I don't think current crisis is just reflection of quality of health services around the world. I roll my eyes at wonderful NHS statements. They are repeated because as Johnson realised they bring votes. Nhs or HSE or any other health system is as good as policies supporting it in this pandemic.

    NHS is not as good as British think but it's not bad. Mainly they were let down by politicians.
    The British public disagree with you about the NHS and so does Captain Tom! :)


  • #3424
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,061 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    To add to the list of NHS staff that died at home, here is another one that was in the page of those that died but I missed that he also died at home,

    Filipino nurse in London found dead alone while in COVID-19 quarantine
    A Filipino nurse based in London died in his flat alone while undergoing quarantine due to his COVID-19 infection. Police discovered his body after his niece pleaded the cops to check on his uncle who was living alone.

    Donald Suelto, 51, had been working for the National Health Service in London for the past 18 years, his niece Emylene Suelto-Robertson narrated in an interview with CNN Philippines’ Pia Hontiveros.

    Robertson said her uncle contracted the fatal virus after being exposed to one of his patients who tested positive for the disease.

    “He didn’t have personal protective equipment and the patient was coughing in front of him,” she said.

    So he died alone after he called his manager and they told him to call the hotline. Apparently those calls went unanswered. Without favour or fear for the staff of the NHS but not for the person who is head of the party that is responsible for the cuts the service has suffered and the shortage of PPE.

    I wonder why his hospital wasn't more concerned either, does that show how busy and overwhelmed they have been? *Usually if one of the staff on a ward is sick you will have colleagues who are concerned and checking on the person and you would think they would be a judge if the person needs to go to hospital. But it seems like this isn't happening, why?

    *Anecdotal evidence only


  • #3425
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Darc19 wrote: »
    I'm not celebrating our system. But I got sick and tired of people who had never experienced the NHS putting the NHS on a pedestal.

    I have experienced how badly run the NHS is and their handling of this might finally stop these fools cheering the NHS
    I've had experience of the NHS. Free at the point of entry and professionally seen to throughout. I was treated excellently. I don't think that paying to see the doctor is a good alternative. The NHS is also not perfect.

    I agree with meeh's point about judging it based on crisis. I also agree with meeh's point that people treat it like a god that can't be questioned. The continental model in Germany for example should be looked at more. The answer to the NHS's problems is not always throwing more money at it constantly either. It requires structural change also.


  • #3426
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,061 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    theological wrote: »
    I've had experience of the NHS. Free at the point of entry and professionally seen to throughout. I was treated excellently. I don't think that paying to see the doctor is a good alternative. The NHS is also not perfect.

    I agree with meeh's point about judging it based on crisis. I also agree with meeh's point that people treat it like a god that can't be questioned. The continental model in Germany for example should be looked at more. The answer to the NHS's problems is not always throwing more money at it constantly either. It requires structural change also.


    But Germany has mandatory health insurance, so how would the UK population like that on top of their taxes?


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  • #3427
    Enzokk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,061 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    The manufacturing of ventilators,

    Muddled thinking punctures plan for British ventilator

    The article is free to read. Here is the thread reader for the twitter thread from one of the journalists who wrote this story,

    Thread reader


    This guy is obviously just a troll who has some bias against the UK like we do here,

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1251447891002089472?s=20


  • #3428
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    I saw that the french announced yesterday that all health workers would be getting an E1500 bonus. I dont think its that much really but I'd prefer it to one of Hancocks badges (you know where you could stick that) or the knowledge that Carrie bleedin Symonds is clapping "harder than ever" for me. Like, how hard can this stuff be?


  • #3429
    S.M.B.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,383 ✭✭✭S.M.B.


    Enzokk wrote: »
    The manufacturing of ventilators,

    Muddled thinking punctures plan for British ventilator

    The article is free to read. Here is the thread reader for the twitter thread from one of the journalists who wrote this story,

    Thread reader


    This guy is obviously just a troll who has some bias against the UK like we do here,

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1251447891002089472?s=20
    This is the stuff that really gets under my skin and is unforgivable imo.

    I resigned myself to what had happened with Brexit but was worried about the next big crisis that would face this uk government. Didn't think it would be for another few years so feel sick to know that it was always just around the corner.


  • #3430
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Enzokk wrote: »
    The manufacturing of ventilators,

    [URL="ht e dtps://www.ft.com/content/5f393d77-8e5b-4a85-b647-416efbc575ec"]Muddled thinking punctures plan for British ventilator[/URL]

    The article is free to read. Here is the thread reader for the twitter thread from one of the journalists who wrote this story,

    Thread reader


    This guy is obviously just a troll who has some bias against the UK like we do here,

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1251447891002089472?s=20

    FT has been fantastic on this from the start. Really digging into the key questions and nobody can ever accuse it of being an anti government mouthpiece.

    Also worth remembering the Piers Morgan interview with Hancock the other day, when he confronted the health secretary about the FT story claiming the ventilators only worked for a few hours, all sourced by a senior Intensive Care operator. Hancock kept repeating it wasnt true, basically that the paper was making it up. He cannot emerge in any way well out of this.


  • #3431
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,912 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    FT has been fantastic on this from the start. Really digging into the key questions and nobody can ever accuse it of being an anti government mouthpiece.

    Also worth remembering the Piers Morgan interview with Hancock the other day, when he confronted the health secretary about the FT story claiming the ventilators only worked for a few hours, all sourced by a senior Intensive Care operator. Hancock kept repeating it wasnt true, basically that the paper was making it up. He cannot emerge in any way well out of this.

    The Government have attacked the FT a fair few times about their coverage by using spin and obfuscation.

    This in particular is a gem
    FT Claim
    Several companies have complained that offers were not taken up to provide some of the additional machines needed to save the lives of people with acute respiratory difficulties caused by Covid-19.

    Government Response
    To say we have ignored suppliers is wrong – we have responded to all companies that contacted us with offers of help.

    The FT never said that the government has ignored suppliers, or they didn't respond to them. What the FT said is that the government didn't take up offers, which the Government response doesn't deny.

    It's a true politicians answer and there has been a fair few similar pieces where the government has criticised the FT in the same manner, giving a response to a claim about something that was never made and passing it off as a response to a claim which they don't want to respond to directly because it would be incriminating.


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  • #3432
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    devnull wrote: »
    The Government have attacked the FT a fair few times about their coverage by using spin and obfuscation.

    This in particular is a gem


    The FT never said that the government has ignored suppliers, or they didn't respond to them. What the FT said is that the government didn't take up offers, which the Government response doesn't deny.

    It's a true politicians answer and there has been a fair few similar pieces where the government has criticised the FT in the same manner, giving a response to a claim about something that was never made and passing it off as a response to a claim which they don't want to respond to directly because it would be incriminating.

    Which i think is notable because the FT, as anything but a left leaning paper, would rarely ever be accused of being overly harsh on a conservative government. It's just great incisive investigative reporting.

    I recall reading last week they'd brought back that Australian spin guy Isaac Levido to run their communications, a sure sign they're getting desperate.

    So when i see stories yesterday about ventilators and critical ppe shortages and they're trying to lead the press briefing with the UK leading the search for a vaccine, i just see their spin dept in operation.


  • #3433
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Enzokk wrote: »
    But Germany has mandatory health insurance, so how would the UK population like that on top of their taxes?
    We've got National Insurance I guess. But look. In all seriousness if there are decisions to put more funding into the health service or to increase taxes to do so I don't think the British public would have issues with that after this is over. Particularly higher rate taxpayers.

    The issues that face the NHS are not solely about money however.

    Edit: I would still say the NHS model is better than the Irish system however.


  • #3434
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    I think it's all part of a wider question, for lots of places. Who bears the brunt of the pay back, who pays to meet the demand for improved services and who continues to get the juiciest tax breaks. How is that burden going to be shared around and if you dont actually start to address inequality as opposed to talking about it, you'll never have the actual quality of services that live up to the common myths.


  • #3435
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,448 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Scotland:
    In hospital: 1,793 (-6)
    In ICU: 182 (-7)
    Total confirmed cases: 7,820 (+411)
    Total deaths with confirmed COVID-19: 893 (+56)

    Therefore as it stands, there are a minimum of 1,287 (893+394) deaths in Scotland (confirmed and suspected)


  • #3436
    nacho libre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,891 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    According to the Metro Newspaper 15,000 people are entering the UK everyday with no screening in place.


    https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/18/flights-still-bringing-15000-people-day-uk-no-screening-12574861/


  • #3437
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    I think it's all part of a wider question, for lots of places. Who bears the brunt of the pay back, who pays to meet the demand for improved services and who continues to get the juiciest tax breaks. How is that burden going to be shared around and if you dont actually start to address inequality as opposed to talking about it, you'll never have the actual quality of services that live up to the common myths.


    I think the answer is that higher rate taxpayers in particular need to start paying more tax. Over the last few years the Tories have been cutting taxes and increasing the threshold for payment of the higher rate also. That may need to be revisited.

    There's also a question of which generation should largely pay for this given that millennials have primarily taken the burden of the last recession.


  • #3438
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    theological wrote: »
    I think the answer is that higher rate taxpayers in particular need to start paying more tax. Over the last few years the Tories have been cutting taxes and increasing the threshold for payment of the higher rate also. That may need to be revisited.

    There's also a question of which generation should largely pay for this given that millennials have primarily taken the burden of the last recession.

    I think we are in agreement here theo. I actually think this a question best answered without recourse to who is left wing, right wing or chicken wing. The undisputed fact for me is that free market neoliberalism and the growth mantra left the country in a terrible state to handle a pandemic and wont get them out of it the fallout either. They can simply go back to the ststus quo if people allow it, then rinse and repeat till the next disaster befalls and sooner than we think.


  • #3439
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    I think we are in agreement here theo. I actually think this a question best answered without recourse to who is left wing, right wing or chicken wing. The undisputed fact for me is that free market neoliberalism and the growth mantra left the country in a terrible state to handle a pandemic and wont get them out of it the fallout either. They can simply go back to the ststus quo if people allow it, then rinse and repeat till the next disaster befalls and sooner than we think.


    I fit naturally on a political level with free market thinking within the Tory party, but this is a unique crisis that raises new questions.

    Hence why you have ministers like Rishi Sunak, who is basically quite Thatcherite in his thinking offering huge reforms that even John McDonnell would have been red faced offering in other circumstances. It is a unique situation.


  • #3440
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    theological wrote: »
    I fit naturally on a political level with free market thinking within the Tory party, but this is a unique crisis that raises new questions.

    Hence why you have ministers like Rishi Sunak, who is basically quite Thatcherite in his thinking offering huge reforms that even John McDonnell would have been red faced offering in other circumstances. It is a unique situation.

    Well i diverge from you there. If we are to think that measures designed to assist mostly those less well off and vulnerable only apply in a crisis on a one-off basis, then i dont think they'll learn much about why they were so ill prepared to meet the current situation. And not just the uk. I noted the utter disdain with which Sunak fielded a question on UBI the other day so can see he's determined to draw some boundaries anyway. One good thing i think, though, is case for Heathrow third runway is surely busted now. No justification for it going forward. Johnson probably heave a sigh of relief if not!


  • #3441
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    Well i diverge from you there. If we are to think that measures designed to assist mostly those less well off and vulnerable only apply in a crisis on a one-off basis, then i dont think they'll learn much about why they were so ill prepared to meet the current situation. And not just the uk. I noted the utter disdain with which Sunak fielded a question on UBI the other day so can see he's determined to draw some boundaries anyway. One good thing i think, though, is case for Heathrow third runway is surely busted now. No justification for it going forward. Johnson probably heave a sigh of relief if not!


    I think I was just taking the opportunity to say despite our differences I think radical action may be justified on this issue because of its unique nature. I'll decline to discuss much more on the other topics because it will take us off the topic.


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  • #3442
    ChikiChiki
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,949 ✭✭✭ChikiChiki


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    I have had experience of both the NHS & HSE, Give me the NHS any day.

    Our Govt have handled the crisis better. That will be the difference if the NHS collapses.


  • #3443
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    ChikiChiki wrote: »
    Our Govt have handled the crisis better. That will be the difference if the NHS collapses.
    Do you actually think the NHS "collapsing" is a possible outcome?


  • #3444
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,448 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    https://twitter.com/paul__johnson/status/1251417319731052546


  • #3445
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,181 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    theological wrote: »
    Do you actually think the NHS "collapsing" is a possible outcome?

    In the short term its absolutely possible if they become overwhelmed with patients and enough of their doctors and nurses fall ill


  • #3446
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/paul__johnson/status/1251417319731052546

    Not very surprising. So much of what they are doing - look at response to care home disaster - is only coming after media and public pressure. In that Tim Shipman piece from a few weeks back it suggested Cummings had to push Johnson into announcing the lockdown. Hardly a shock it would push against the pms libertarian principles and those of a few of his close colleagues.


  • #3447
    Jizique
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,237 ✭✭✭Jizique


    Enzokk wrote: »
    The manufacturing of ventilators,

    Muddled thinking punctures plan for British ventilator

    The article is free to read. Here is the thread reader for the twitter thread from one of the journalists who wrote this story,

    Thread reader


    This guy is obviously just a troll who has some bias against the UK like we do here,

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1251447891002089472?s=20

    Who is the troll?
    Anonymous boards poster or celebrated English journalist who has just joined FT after the guts of 20 years with right-leaning Daily Telegraph


  • #3448
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,448 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    https://twitter.com/newscientist/status/1251232973183213570


  • #3449
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,181 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/newscientist/status/1251232973183213570

    So it will never be published just like to Russian interferance report


  • #3450
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,448 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    I forgot about that one


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  • #3451
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,477 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/paul__johnson/status/1251417319731052546

    Just wondering if the reliance on the PM as the boss has always been the case or if there has been a shift towards an American style single person in charge? I know that you always need a person at the top but is this "don't do anything without the bosses say so" really necessary in a parliamentary system, a big majority government and a settled cabinet in place?

    I mean, if Leo was out with Covid-19 for any length of time, would anyone here really care if Coveney acted Taoiseach? The government has set its policies and most of it is to be guided by the institutions with the relevant expertise. Decisions have to be made. The Taoiseach/PM role is not directly elected and is always subject to change, a hierarchy is in place and if the person at the top is unable to fulfil their role, the next person steps up. It's not like that is in anyway undemocratic, the Taoiseach/PM is elected the same as any other member of Parliament.

    I'm not suggesting that Boris has effectively made himself President or anything, just asking if the UK has always been as vested so much power in the PM as currently seems to be the case?


This discussion has been closed.
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