The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

BonnieSituation · 16-04-2020 02:54PM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Don't you understand the concept of an old soldier wanting to do his bit to help charities-nothing to do with the UK not stumping up money for the NHS.I can't understand why you are struggling to comprehend he wants to help his country in this time of danger-its called 'all pulling together ' .

Blitz spirit old fellow. Tally ho!

Memnoch · 16-04-2020 02:57PM

The only consolation is that the rate of deaths seems to have stabilised in hospital.

However, the virus is most lethal in the elderly population. It has been proven to be rampant in carehomes in the UK with 2500+ facilities infected.

Considering that care home fatalities outside hospital seem to make up about 50% in other European countries and looking at the overall mortality rate in the UK compared to the last five years average it is reasonable to estimate that the real toll from this is approximately double the official numbers.

McGiver · 16-04-2020 03:45PM

1641 wrote: »

Well it is relevant to me as I would like to know.

And unless we do know it does make comparisons to Germany, as in above, more difficult (for better or worse).

Assume they aren't just like the UK. Nothing changes. Abysmal figures compared to Germany...

Donald Trump · 16-04-2020 03:50PM

Your man Hancock comes across as some arsehole

Urged footballers to take a paycut but refuses to take the lead and do the same :pac:

robinph · 16-04-2020 04:06PM

1641 wrote: »

I don't know about that. If deaths in care homes and other locations outside of hospitals was 75% higher than reported hospital deaths in March, then I would expect it to be even more now, if anything. The "lockdown" should be reducing community transmissions (and subesequent deaths) but if the virus is established with residential settings it will continue to rip through.

It shouldn't continue to rip through care homes as they are socially isolated from each other. Each individual care home which has an outbreak will be affected badly, but they are independent of each other as far as infections are concerned.

One care home does not infect another, they would be infected from their staff being out in the community not from another home 20 miles away.

Donald Trump · 16-04-2020 04:08PM

robinph wrote: »

It shouldn't continue to rip through care homes as they are socially isolated from each other. Each individual care home which has an outbreak will be affected badly, but they are independent of each other as far as infections are concerned.

One care home does not infect another, they would be infected from their staff being out in the community not from another home 20 miles away.

No.

The use of contract staff means that a lot of them travel between homes.

robinph · 16-04-2020 04:09PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

No.

The use of contract staff means that a lot of them travel between homes.

Is that something that is still happening with staff moving between locations?

BonnieSituation · 16-04-2020 04:10PM

Piers really came across terribly there with the interrupting. He had no need to do so. Hancock was going to hang himself anyway.

TBF as bad a job as he's doing, he's still doing his job. So it isn't equatable to footballers, however, they could help themselves by suggesting a pay cut.

Donald Trump · 16-04-2020 04:12PM

robinph wrote: »

Is that something that is still happening with staff moving between locations?

I don't know. However it was prevalent from what I understand.

Rather than hiring staff, a nursing home might prefer to take the "cheaper" option of paying more up front per day for contract staff.

If they needed contract staff a couple of months ago, unless they have hired more regular staff then one would imagine they would still need them.

It could be possible though that they might insist on keeping the same contract staff every day now. Might have enough workload now to justify it

theological · 16-04-2020 04:13PM

devnull wrote: »

NI Deaths just been confirmed at 18.

Therefore 870 hospital deaths reported for last 24 hours

England 740
Scotland 80
Wales 32
Northern Ireland 18

The numbers seem to be stabilising and this is good news. A lot more progress will be made over the next 3 weeks.

It seems like testing capacity is now at 35,000 also according to Downing Street. If true that's good progress. Much more still needs to be done.

On Piers Morgan - I guess he should take the lead on the pay cut.

16-04-2020 04:18PM

It seems the Dutch have not been including people who died outside of hospital in their numbers either. They are at 193 per million population today.

Are we one of the few to include these, I wonder? Belgium also include these numbers, which is probably why they are so much higher than Holland (Belgium at 419 per million).

Leroy42 · 16-04-2020 04:20PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Piers really came across terribly there with the interrupting. He had no need to do so. Hancock was going to hang himself anyway.

TBF as bad a job as he's doing, he's still doing his job. So it isn't equatable to footballers, however, they could help themselves by suggesting a pay cut.

It is almost as if Hancock believes that certain rich people, only certain ones mind, should actually give more than the government deemed was acceptable.

Not if only Hancock had any contacts to people that could actually put a change in the tax rules that would mean that rich people pay a greater share or their wealth to provide for society at large.

His 'job' has nothing to do with singling out particular sectors of the economy to try to publicly shame them into paying additional taxes. His job is to ensure sufficient PPE, to ensure that care homes are protected, to ensure that the complete numbers are being collected and published and to ensure that testing ramps up.

robinph · 16-04-2020 04:21PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

I don't know. However it was prevalent from what I understand.

Rather than hiring staff, a nursing home might prefer to take the "cheaper" option of paying more up front per day for contract staff.

If they needed contract staff a couple of months ago, unless they have hired more regular staff then one would imagine they would still need them.

It could be possible though that they might insist on keeping the same contract staff every day now. Might have enough workload now to justify it

I'd hope someone amongst the contract staff themselves, the agencies they work through, the care home managers, the other staff or the residents families to have noticed how idiotic such a system would be currently and have put a stop to it. Someone amongst that lot should be aware enough to notice and stop it.

There were care home staff being interviewed over Skype yesterday about that they had decided to take up residence themselves in order to limit exposure to their own families as well as the residents of the home so there is some intelligence out there.

Enzokk · 16-04-2020 04:23PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Your man Hancock comes across as some arsehole

Urged footballers to take a paycut but refuses to take the lead and do the same :pac:

What seems to be clear is that the UK Government will not admit they made mistakes at any cost. Other countries will do that but if they keep telling you they made the right decisions and were well prepared then I fear if this lot is still in charge when the next crises strikes then the response will be just as chaotic as this has been because they refuse to learn from other countries or their own mistakes.

16-04-2020 04:24PM

robinph wrote: »

It shouldn't continue to rip through care homes as they are socially isolated from each other. Each individual care home which has an outbreak will be affected badly, but they are independent of each other as far as infections are concerned.

One care home does not infect another, they would be infected from their staff being out in the community not from another home 20 miles away.

Once inside a care home it continues to spread easily. And in Ireland anyway there seems to have been a lot of staff shifting beween care homes - probably locums and back-up staff for sick leave etc. This was reported as one of the issues earlier on. If they share here I assume they do also in the UK. Probably more so.

BonnieSituation · 16-04-2020 04:29PM

theological wrote: »

The numbers seem to be stabilising and this is good news. A lot more progress will be made over the next 3 weeks.

It seems like testing capacity is now at 35,000 also according to Downing Street. If true that's good progress. Much more still needs to be done.

On Piers Morgan - I guess he should take the lead on the pay cut.

Why? He's doing his job. And if anything I'd say ratings are up.

I think the people who exacerbated the crisis should be first up in the cut stakes tbh. Then we can look at TV presenters on commercial stations.

Enzokk · 16-04-2020 04:31PM

robinph wrote: »

I'd hope someone amongst the contract staff themselves, the agencies they work through, the care home managers, the other staff or the residents families to have noticed how idiotic such a system would be currently and have put a stop to it. Someone amongst that lot should be aware enough to notice and stop it.

There were care home staff being interviewed over Skype yesterday about that they had decided to take up residence themselves in order to limit exposure to their own families as well as the residents of the home so there is some intelligence out there.

I agree, but the system has evolved, whether by design or just naturally, where this seems to be a regularly happening. I believe this happens here to some extent as well, because the HSE budgets have been cut and increases has been managed while we recovered it meant a hiring freeze for many years. As the hospitals had to replace staff that left when they reached the bare minimum safe staffing levels, they have had to rely on agencies to replace staff because they couldn't hire permanent staff and it seems any time a hiring spree is made just a few months later we have a temporary freeze as budgets are tight. So you still keep relying on agency staff who are not always tied to one ward/hospital/home.

So with this in mind and knowing that this is prevalent in the system, you would expect it to be relayed by the higher ups in the national system to those in charge of the homes that this should be reduced before it becomes needed for the individuals to do this from their own initiative. I mean those in charge gets paid a lot more to make these decisions and be up to date before it becomes the responsibility of the individuals to do so.

theological · 16-04-2020 04:33PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Why? He's doing his job. And if anything I'd say ratings are up.

I think the people who exacerbated the crisis should be first up in the cut stakes tbh. Then we can look at TV presenters on commercial stations.

So is Matt Hancock.

Enzokk · 16-04-2020 04:35PM

theological wrote: »

So is Matt Hancock.

As he tried to tell Piers on why he will not take a pay cut. He is working hard, don't you know so any criticism should be put aside because he is working hard. I guess the New Zealand counterpart isn't because he is taking a pay cut.

meeeeh · 16-04-2020 04:36PM

1641 wrote: »

It seems the Dutch have not been including people who died outside of hospital in their numbers either. They are at 193 per million population today.

Are we one of the few to include these, I wonder? Belgium also include these numbers, which is probably why they are so much higher than Holland (Belgium at 419 per million).

Not one of the few. There are other countries who do. I think numbers in Slovenia are up to 70% of all deaths people from homes although some may have died in the hospital. French added them afterwards and that's the reason why their numbers were well over 1000 per day a week or two ago when nursing home numbers were coming in.

Belgium meanwhile counts also suspected cases so people who weren't tested but are suspected to died from Corona. It might inflate their numbers but they claim it helps to provide better picture how pandemic is spreading.

As for the nursing homes it's not just thd staff going from one place to another. Luke O'Neil said on Pat Kenny this morning that there is research that up to 50% cases have no symptoms but are spreading the virus. There is close contact between carers and elderly and if you have people without symptoms working there it is incredibly hard to stop it.

RobMc59 · 16-04-2020 04:40PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Piers really came across terribly there with the interrupting. He had no need to do so. Hancock was going to hang himself anyway.

TBF as bad a job as he's doing, he's still doing his job. So it isn't equatable to footballers, however, they could help themselves by suggesting a pay cut.

Piers is good at asking very searching questions and you can see he unsettles people but as you say,his constant interrupting doesn't give the 'victim'time to answer.

Seth Brundle · 16-04-2020 04:58PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Your man Hancock comes across as some arsehole

Urged footballers to take a paycut but refuses to take the lead and do the same :pac:

In fact, didn't MPs recently get a pay rise?
Plus didn't they get £10k for setting themselves up to work from home?

Joe_ Public · 16-04-2020 05:01PM

Dont forget Hancock announced yesterday that all care workers would
be getting a badge. So never let it be said the government is giving them nothing, fake news.

robinph · 16-04-2020 05:05PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

In fact, didn't MPs recently get a pay rise?
Plus didn't they get £10k for setting themselves up to work from home?

Think the 10k was for expenses such that if they needed to supply staff with new equipment to be able to work from home, not just and extra 10 grand for the MP's pocket.

BonnieSituation · 16-04-2020 05:09PM

theological wrote: »

So is Matt Hancock.

Piers didn't start this whole shebang asking for people to take pay cuts now did he?

RobMc59 wrote: »

Piers is good at asking very searching questions and you can see he unsettles people but as you say,his constant interrupting doesn't give the 'victim'time to answer.

It is very irritating. There's always the germ of a good argument and "gotcha moment" there and he just can't help himself sometimes, and tries to get there too soon. He basically wanted to ask about the pay cut for the whole interview and just couldn't wait to get there.

From my POV, that pretty much let Hancock- who you can imagine that I think lives up to his name somewhat - off the hook!

BonnieSituation · 16-04-2020 05:10PM

robinph wrote: »

Think the 10k was for expenses such that if they needed to supply staff with new equipment to be able to work from home, not just and extra 10 grand for the MP's pocket.

Well, you say that... I wonder if it was vouched in anyway?

Enzokk · 16-04-2020 05:42PM

It is obviously a talking point for those doing the briefings to mention that they will take the right decisions at the right time. I take some offence to this. Surely it would be better and show some humility to rather say they will take what they believe is the best decision on the evidence at the time.

It seems to me that they are trying to tell the public by repeating it all the time that the decisions they will take in the future will be the correct ones, even before they have taken them. It takes some arrogance to do this.

theological · 16-04-2020 06:00PM

To move on from the games with salaries. Here's the latest from the briefing:

The obvious statement is that the lockdown is now extended for 3 more weeks.

Hospital beds with coronavirus are stabilising in most regions.

Different forms of measures (not necessarily the same ones) will need to be in place until a vaccine.

Raab listed five points for consideration as to when the lockdown can be eased:

Making sure the NHS can cope
Evidence showing a sustained and consistent fall in daily death rates
Reliable data showing the rate of infection is decreasing to manageable levels
Being confident in the range of operational challenges, like ensuring testing and the right amount of PPE, are in hand
Being confident any adjustments will not risk a second peak

Edit: Here's a good link for charts. It looks like the UK is making some progress on the death figures also. It'll depend lots on what happens in the next few days.

nacho libre · 16-04-2020 06:37PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

To me it really shows how powerful a brand the NHS remains. If he was collecting on behalf of any other institution, he might have got a couple of hundred grand maybe. But the combination of war veteran and nhs captured the imagination in an unprecedented way. But people have to think about what that really means. Its a great story but needs to have some consequence to be truly meaningful.

Like in the future where previous thinking might have been we can't afford to invest in the NHS, you would hope the thinking will be we can't afford not to!

Joe_ Public · 16-04-2020 06:52PM

nacho libre wrote: »

Like in the future where previous thinking might have been we can't afford to invest in the NHS, you would hope the thinking will be we can't afford not to!

Yeah thats it exactly. People can feel proud of nhs but not get complacent that spirit and resilience will always get it through. Make politicians live up to promises or dump them out.

The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

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