The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

AllForIt · 15-04-2020 12:15AM

Remainers all seem to be coronavirus management experts. What a coincidence.

blinding · 15-04-2020 12:22AM

VinLieger wrote: »

Ahh yes its the EUs fault the UK forgot to read their emails which is why they didn't have enough PPE, also don't forget to blame the doctors for using too much of it as well as the competitive market for procuring it....

You know what they should try buying it as a larger collective group, that might make it cheaper and easier.... Ohh wait

The Brits have forgotten how to run their own Country. Too long allowing the Eu doing it.

Now they realise that when the $hit really hits the fan you really need to be able to run your own Country.

The Britain in the Eu experiment has turned out to be a calamitous failure for Britain. They won’t be going back. The British people want to run their own Country and will never give up their Democracy for the Eu.

Donald Trump · 15-04-2020 12:28AM

blinding wrote: »

The Brits have forgotten how to run their own Country. Too long allowing the Eu doing it.

Now they realise that when the $hit really hits the fan you really need to be able to run your own Country.

The Britain in the Eu experiment has turned out to be a calamitous failure for Britain. They won’t be going back. The British people want to run their own Country and will never give up their Democracy for the Eu.

How is it going for them?
You know, now that they are out of the EU? Good? Perfect? It was terrible alright - the EU making them give up their democracy.
BTW, how do you feel about Macron phoning up Boris and telling him to close the pubs and him taking it like a bitch and just doing it? Not even the EU. Just the French PM :pac:

Also NHS is on the table baby. Once corona is out of the way. Money talks and the UK will quickly find out it's a taker in most of it's deals (in terms of actual volume of trade)

I don't think anyone would want them back once they get them out the door if they keep choosing to have the same ignorant shower in charge.

Memnoch · 15-04-2020 12:41AM

Nadra Ahmed, of the National Care Association, said: 'We are losing a whole generation to this virus but it feels like, because they are old, the deaths don't count.'

I just want to take a moment to collate the evidence on this issue.

In early February, Dominic Cummings was reported by the Sunday Times to have said “herd immunity, protect[ing] the economy and if that means some pensioners die, too bad.”

https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/23/dominic-cummings-denies-saying-bad-pensioners-will-die-coronavirus-12441467/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/22/no-10-denies-claim-dominic-cummings-argued-to-let-old-people-die

An early report from the office of national statistics shows that official that counts were being underestimated by 25%. It now emerges that the official statistics were not counting deaths outside of hospitals. The British government said that the statistics of the ONS and their own official count would need to be “reconciled”down the line.

We further learned that the UK were not testing people in the community. In general, testing in the UK has been incredibly low in comparison with other first world economies. There have been repeated questions and delays about the state of testing all the while the peak of the crisis has hit the country. Not testing adequately during the peak of the epidemic makes it impossible to have an accurate figure of the true mortality caused by this virus.

There have been reports of patients calling the emergency services and not being brought to hospital. Including an NHS worker.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/03/uk/thomas-harvey-uk-coronavirus-intl-gbr/index.html

Tamira alleges that London's Goodmayes Hospital failed to provide necessary personal protective equipment (PPE) to her father. And just a few days before Harvey's death, emergency services "refused" to come to take him to hospital, Tamira says, despite family concerns that he wasn't "breathing properly."

Now a whistleblower on channel 4 reveals that suspected coronavirus deaths are being left out of the official statistics. Thus undermining the reliability of even statistics of the ONS.

https://www.channel4.com/news/can-we-rely-on-covid-19-death-figures

The suggestion is not that this is something that is being done by Gps (though the guidance to GPs has been inconsistent and unclear) but that there are errors in the reporting system which might be a point at which the government would have direct influence, where these figures are being collated.

This becomes more concerning when we look at the latest figures coming out of the ONS today which indicate that approximately 16,000 people died in the week ending of April 3 in the UK this year a rise of 6000 in comparison to the previous five-year average. Yet only half of these have been ascribed by the government to Covid 19.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/14/coronavirus-deaths-50-per-cent-higher-government-figures-suggested/

Only 237 extra deaths in care homes and according to official figures:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/14/uk-care-providers-allege-covid-19-death-toll-underestimated#maincontent

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/14/care-homes-coronavirus-why-we-dont-know-true-uk-death-toll

The latest ONS figures provide a breakdown of the locations where 4,122 registered Covid-19 deaths took place. They show that 217 or 5% of deaths that occurred in England and Wales registered by 3 April actually happened in care homes. A further 136 deaths occurred in private homes, while 33 were in hospices.

However...

The Guardian has revealed hundreds of deaths have occurred in care homes to date: two of the UK’s largest care home providers have reported 521 coronavirus deaths between them so far.

In summary:

Boris Johnson's right-hand man was recorded as having argued to let old people die. The British government then officially adopted a policy of “herd immunity”and did not adopt strict restrictions to contain the virus initially. After near universal condemnation, they were forced to change tack and enforce stricter measures but even these lagged behind.

Now the evidence would suggest that they are suppressing the true mortality rate of
Covid 19 by anywhere from 50 to 100%.

Reportedly more than 2500 care homes in the UK have outbreaks of the disease. Anecdotal reports suggest anywhere from 10 to 30 fatalities in individual institutions. What does this come to if this is multiplied across 2500 facilities?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8214867/Chris-Whitty-reveals-92-care-homes-declared-coronavirus-outbreak-past-24-hours-alone.html

The Chief Medical Officer revealed that almost 100 more homes had reported outbreaks in the past 24 hours. He said more than 13 per cent had now been hit nationally by the deadly disease, the equivalent of a staggering 2,200 homes.

If the British government are responsible for this it would give them strong motivation to suppress mortality rates as the evidence seems to indicate they have been doing.

AllForIt · 15-04-2020 12:49AM

That Rishi Sunak is far too slick for my liking.

If he dressed a bit more like this I'd take him more seriously.

blinding · 15-04-2020 04:54AM

Donald Trump wrote: »

How is it going for them?
You know, now that they are out of the EU? Good? Perfect? It was terrible alright - the EU making them give up their democracy.
BTW, how do you feel about Macron phoning up Boris and telling him to close the pubs and him taking it like a bitch and just doing it? Not even the EU. Just the French PM :pac:

Also NHS is on the table baby. Once corona is out of the way. Money talks and the UK will quickly find out it's a taker in most of it's deals (in terms of actual volume of trade)

I don't think anyone would want them back once they get them out the door if they keep choosing to have the same ignorant shower in charge.

Something tells me you are not the real Donald Trump.

Not taking getting dumped by the British Electorate ( the important people in Democratic Decisions ) very well are ya. A right little Tantrum ! !

blinding · 15-04-2020 04:57AM

AllForIt wrote: »

That Rishi Sunak is far too slick for my liking.

If he dressed a bit more like this I'd take him more seriously.

Thats what being a sellout to the Eu turns you into ! !

Out on your A$$ Politically and back to his schoolboy shorts. Jeremy came up short on so so much ! !:D:D

McGiver · 15-04-2020 07:34AM

UK death rate is going to be in line with France and Italy at best. Also, if we consider that the numbers are likely intentionally lacking deaths in care homes, UK may be even in line with Spain.

http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/covid19/14apr2020/deaths-eu-norm-large.png

Look at Austria and Germany. That's going to be a difference of several leagues. And they are not islands on the periphery.

Edit: Germany seems to have peaked whereas the UK have not so there divergence will only worsen.

declanflynn · 15-04-2020 08:20AM

blinding wrote: »

Too long in the Eu , Obviously. What a failed experiment that turned out to be for the British.

We see in these times how important it is to run your own country.

like britian is doing...

declanflynn · 15-04-2020 08:21AM

AllForIt wrote: »

Remainers all seem to be coronavirus management experts. What a coincidence.

Or just brighter

theological · 15-04-2020 08:24AM

The reason for later reporting in care homes was answered yesterday by Yvonne Doyle in the press briefing. The simple answer is that collating results from 11,000+ care homes which are reported in a different manner to hospitals is going to take more time.

It is also better that the data is correct when it is published rather than rushed.

Enzokk · 15-04-2020 08:30AM

blinding wrote: »

Too long in the Eu , Obviously. What a failed experiment that turned out to be for the British.

We see in these times how important it is to run your own country.

So now it is the EU's fault again. But how about countries in the EU that seem to be dealing with this crises? Are you saying that the EU, whoever that is, is playing favourites and some are responding well and others not? Please expand on why Germany seems to be coping well but Italy and Spain hasn't?

AllForIt wrote: »

Remainers all seem to be coronavirus management experts. What a coincidence.

Deflect!! Deflect!! Don't talk about care home deaths, DEFLECT!!

AllForIt wrote: »

That Rishi Sunak is far too slick for my liking.

If he dressed a bit more like this I'd take him more seriously.

DEFLECT!! They will fall for it!! DEFLECT!!

blinding wrote: »

Thats what being a sellout to the Eu turns you into ! !

Out on your A$$ Politically and back to his schoolboy shorts. Jeremy came up short on so so much ! !:D:D

PILE ON TO THE DEFLECTION!!

I am left wondering what the person who was the leader of the opposition, who had no influence on policy or the direction the UK took, has on the discussion of the current UK Government response to the crises?

DEFLECT!!!

Peregrinus · 15-04-2020 08:47AM

theological wrote: »

The reason for later reporting in care homes was answered yesterday by Yvonne Doyle in the press briefing. The simple answer is that collating results from 11,000+ care homes which are reported in a different manner to hospitals is going to take more time.

It is also better that the data is correct when it is published rather than rushed.

But that's the thing; the data that is being published is incorrect - in the sense that it's incomplete.

This causes problems, if not properly understood. There is much comment out there, for instance, comparing death figures/death rates for the UK and other countries, but these comparisons are meaningless or, worse, misleading if the UK figures are incomplete while the other countries' figures are complete.

It doesn't helpt that, in an age where we mistrust politicians, the incompleteness tends to favour the UK - as in, on the "headline" figures the UK has fewer deaths, and a lower death rate, than France, which looks good. But the French figures include out-of-hospital deaths while they UK figures do not. At this point we can only estimate the UK's out-of-hospital death figures but, on most estimates, if they are taken into account the UK is probably doing worse than France, not better.

OK, it's not a competition, and there could be many factors which explain why some countries have worse experience than others. If the UK is having a worse experience, mismanagement by the UK government is not the only possible account of this.

And yet you won't avoid the suspicion that the fact that UK figures don't account for out-of-hospital deaths is of at least short-term political advantage to the government, and the consequent suspicion that they will be in no rush to improve their collection of data to French, Dutch and German standards so that they can count out-of-hospital deaths in a timely fashion; the result of doing so will make matters look worse than they currently look. And therefore the government is in no rush to remedy the situation.

Enzokk · 15-04-2020 08:53AM

theological wrote: »

The reason for later reporting in care homes was answered yesterday by Yvonne Doyle in the press briefing. The simple answer is that collating results from 11,000+ care homes which are reported in a different manner to hospitals is going to take more time.

It is also better that the data is correct when it is published rather than rushed.

So why include care home deaths for other countries that includes those in care home when showing charts to make a death comparison chart?

Image is available here, COBR Chart

From this link, the UK has less care home beds than France but is struggling to report their numbers. The UK has a lot less beds than Germany and is struggling to report the deaths in those locations.

Number of nursing and elderly home beds

France - 642 168
Germany - 902 882
UK - 548 397
Ireland - 30 106

It seems the UK figure has gone down in recent years according to this article, where the total number of beds in the UK stands at 456 545. So why is the UK struggling to record these numbers when countries with comparable populations and care home beds that are also in the EU are doing it?

theological · 15-04-2020 08:58AM

I guess the comparison is based on what other countries report. It is worth pointing out that not all countries include care home deaths in their statistics either. In the briefing a few days ago they said it was the international standard to report hospital deaths in the daily numbers.

I'd prefer the numbers to be carefully reported as opposed to rushing out inaccurate data.

Donald Trump · 15-04-2020 09:06AM

blinding wrote: »

Something tells me you are not the real Donald Trump.

Not taking getting dumped by the British Electorate ( the important people in Democratic Decisions ) very well are ya. A right little Tantrum ! !

Lol. Touch a nerve did I? You're funny

Boris bent over and did what Macron told him. Which was better for the UK population of course. But still. The fact remains that he was forced to do it when he didn't want to

I don't remember the UK electorate getting a vote on that. :pac:

theological · 15-04-2020 09:07AM

I don't know why people need to get so personal by the way.
It'd be nice to discuss based on the facts rather than descending into ad hominems and petty jibes.

Joe_ Public · 15-04-2020 09:13AM

theological wrote: »

The reason for later reporting in care homes was answered yesterday by Yvonne Doyle in the press briefing. The simple answer is that collating results from 11,000+ care homes which are reported in a different manner to hospitals is going to take more time.

It is also better that the data is correct when it is published rather than rushed.

An even simpler answer is that some countries like ireland, for example, test their care home residents while other countries, like the uk, for example, dont. If doyle had mentioned that, it mightn't have come across that she and others often dont seem to be giving quite the full picture.

Enzokk · 15-04-2020 09:20AM

Sir David King seems to wonder as well why the numbers aren't being included,

https://twitter.com/mattuthompson/status/1250299264497942535?s=20

https://twitter.com/mattuthompson/status/1250300068973838342?s=20

Here is an article looking at the experts the UK listened and questioning whether they were too intent on those modeling the virus and this caused them to have some tunnel vision and forget to focus on other important areas,

The battle at the heart of British science over Coronavirus

It is a FT article but it opened for me as I believe their coronavirus articles aren't behind the paywall.

Basically it questions not whether the advice that was follows was wrong, but that it was too narrow in one area and that is why there has been shortcomings in other areas. So while they have been listening to epidemiologists, they have not been listening to experts in public health as much and that has been driving the response. There is also this from the last paragraph to ponder on,

The crisis may not be over, but already there are lessons. Perhaps the biggest one, according to Sir David, is to bolster resilience against future outbreaks. As chief scientific adviser between 2000 and 2008, he pushed the idea of the UK becoming more serious about preparing for emerging health and environmental threats.

“We seem to have forgotten the lessons, the fact that we need redundancy against all the things we haven’t prepared for,” he says.

The current crisis shows how a lack of preparation ultimately limits a country’s options. “When it came to foot-and-mouth and Sars, we used to be the ones telling China how to respond, but now the boot is on the other foot. The Asians are in the lead and they’ve responded well. We’ve done poorly.”

blinding · 15-04-2020 09:28AM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Lol. Touch a nerve did I? You're funny

Boris bent over and did what Macron told him. Which was better for the UK population of course. But still. The fact remains that he was forced to do it when he didn't want to

I don't remember the UK electorate getting a vote on that. :pac:

The British Electorate booted you Snowflake Eu-philes Out. Democracy at its Finest. Any Ye certainly can’t cope with being Dumped, Ah Poor Snowflakes ! !

timetogo1 · 15-04-2020 09:50AM

blinding wrote: »

The British Electorate booted you Snowflake Eu-philes Out. Democracy at its Finest. Any Ye certainly can’t cope with being Dumped, Ah Poor Snowflakes ! !

You're out of the EU now. So you can stop moaning about it

We thought we were over this rubbish after Jan 31st but nope, still moaning.

Beasty · 15-04-2020 10:01AM

This is a discussion about Covid-19 in the UK, not Brexit, "Donald Trump" or other issues

Please stick to the topic

Thanks

Leroy42 · 15-04-2020 10:20AM

theological wrote: »

The reason for later reporting in care homes was answered yesterday by Yvonne Doyle in the press briefing. The simple answer is that collating results from 11,000+ care homes which are reported in a different manner to hospitals is going to take more time.

It is also better that the data is correct when it is published rather than rushed.

The reason for the late reporting is that the government did not put in place systems that would overcome the issues you mentioned. Excuses yet again.

As you say, presenting incomplete data, particularly when you don't mention the omissions, is bad data. It was incorrect to state that X was the number that died in the UK today, since they knew it was incomplete. Why did they not state that when presenting?

No test is better than a bad test isn't that what you agree with? So isn't the same true for incomplete data. Why not state that they couldn't provide data as they didn't have the systems in place? Because, rightly, they would have been asked why they were not putting the resources in place to overcome the issues they faced.

Instead, it was only after continued questioning that they finally agreed that the daily numbers were incomplete and then went to blame the 'system'.

declanflynn · 15-04-2020 11:08AM

blinding wrote: »

The British Electorate booted you Snowflake Eu-philes Out. Democracy at its Finest. Any Ye certainly can’t cope with being Dumped, Ah Poor Snowflakes ! !

I think there are a fair few few of us that couldn't wait to see the back of ye, brits are not as popular as they think around the world, in fact the majority hate the sight of the stupid <snip>

Mod: End it.

RobMc59 · 15-04-2020 11:15AM

timetogo1 wrote: »

You're out of the EU now. So you can stop moaning about it
We thought we were over this rubbish after Jan 31st but nope, still moaning.

Whether its covid,brexit,importing British cars or any number of subjects there are an astonishing array of mainly anti British threads here on boards,which is fine except when the main contributors take offense when a British person has the audacity to challenge them- This isn't an attempt to stifle discussion by the way,reading different points of view is good although the thought that there are some here with an agenda lingers.
I enjoy boards because I'm interested in Ireland and it's people-I don't come here to slag it off.

Donald Trump · 15-04-2020 11:16AM

Has it ever been explained, or justified, why Boris was unwilling or unable to close the pubs, but suddenly was able to do it when Macron ordered him to?

People could try to deflect to say "it wasn't his decision" or blame "experts and advice" as to why he didn't do it earlier. They might even try to say that he couldn't do it because of resistance within his cabinet.

But he was able to do it as soon as Macron ordered him to. That shows that he could have done it earlier had he wished to. There was nobody trying, or able, to stop him then. Which is also evidence that it was he himself who didn't want to impose those controls earlier.

Surely whatever optics he was afraid of in closing down a few days earlier must have been heavily outweighed by the optics of having the French President order him what to do? It makes no sense unless you assume Boris is a complete idiot. (Which may well be the case!)

The UK owe a great big thanks to Macron. They would probably never be gracious enough to admit it though. I know France isn't in great shapes itself, but it might have helped the UK response if they had just asked France to tell them what to do earlier. Lives would have been saved. They wouldn't even had had to do it publicly in order to save some blushes. Perhaps they should start doing it now behind the scenes. If not the French, maybe draft in a few of the German civil servants to pull the strings in the background in London. At least to make them start doing what the Germans are doing right in comparison

Joe_ Public · 15-04-2020 11:26AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

Whether its covid,brexit,importing British cars or any number of subjects there are an astonishing array of mainly anti British threads here on boards,which is fine except when the main contributors take offense when a British person has the audacity to challenge them- This isn't an attempt to stifle discussion by the way,reading different points of view is good although the thought that there are some here with an agenda lingers.
I enjoy boards because I'm interested in Ireland and it's people-I don't come here to slag it off.

As a useful point of interest, does criticising Boris Johnson's handling of the pandemic and some of the actions of his government constitute being "anti British"?

RobMc59 · 15-04-2020 11:31AM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

As a useful point of interest, does criticising Boris Johnson's handling of the pandemic and some of the actions of his government constitute being "anti British"?

No and I'm not a fan of Johnson and his government either.
Wouldn't you try and defend your country if it were being criticized?

Donald Trump · 15-04-2020 11:35AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

No and I'm not a fan of Johnson and his government either.
Wouldn't you try and defend your country if it were being criticized?

People aren't criticising the UK for the sake of it. Nor are they criticising all the individual British people directly. They are criticising the UK government (and perhaps the system there too that allows those idiots to flourish) for their handling of this situation. It may appear blurred by the fact that the same idiots were recently driving another disaster of their own making (and still are). But that is a different issue

Joe_ Public · 15-04-2020 11:37AM

RobMc59 wrote: »

No and I'm not a fan of Johnson and his government either.
Wouldn't you try and defend your country if it were being criticized?

Fair enough, that's good to clarify. It really depends. If i thought my country - by which i take it, we are referring to the political leaders- i would defend if i thought they were worth defending. Otherwise they remain open for the most severe scrutiny.

Just pure observation, but i browse a lot of German news at the moment and one thing strikes me is how hard hitting a lot of the cocerage is and how truly self critical those in charge seem to be. They keep wanting to do better than they are doing. I'd like to see more of that in ireland at least.

The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

Comments