The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

pablo128 · 14-04-2020 02:53PM

robinph wrote: »

Perfectly possible to handle the situation without kicking someone's door in.

Yes, and in the case you described, the person engaged in a civilised manner with the police as any normal person would, by opening the door and speaking to them. Can you see the difference?

Play silly games, win silly prizes.

Joe_ Public · 14-04-2020 03:03PM

Since assuming scenarios is permitted, here's one.

Police get notice of disturbance and go to check it out. At the premises they speak to occupier who refuses to open door and tells cops to f off. Cops dutifully take off.

Later the police are called again to the same premises to find there is a dead body, female, on the premises.

Twitter lights up.

robinph · 14-04-2020 03:04PM

pablo128 wrote: »

Yes, and in the case you described, the person engaged in a civilised manner with the police as any normal person would, by opening the door and speaking to them. Can you see the difference?

Play silly games, win silly prizes.

Yes, I can see the difference.

The police in that video can't see that they are dealing with a nervous population and kicking the door down to a flat that has clearly not got a party with 30 people going on inside might be a bit excessive, regardless of the shouty response they got after they presumably shouted a lot from the other side of the door. They hardly turned up and went straight to door kicking. There must have been plenty of time to establish that the guy was alone.

Yes he was almost certainly telling them to f off before the door kicking. That's still not a reason to kick the door in though. It's on the police there to be responsible and defuse the situation. Unless they thought there was a danger to someone else in the flat, or to the guy him self then they should have been able to talk him down.

blinding · 14-04-2020 03:08PM

robinph wrote: »

Yes, I can see the difference.

The police in that video can't see that they are dealing with a nervous population and kicking the door down to a flat that has clearly not got a party with 30 people going on inside might be a bit excessive, regardless of the shouty response they got after they presumably shouted a lot from the other side of the door. They hardly turned up and went straight to door kicking. There must have been plenty of time to establish that the guy was alone.

Yes he was almost certainly telling them to f off before the door kicking. That's still not a reason to kick the door in though. It's on the police there to be responsible and defuse the situation. Unless they thought there was a danger to someone else in the flat, or to the guy him self then they should have been able to talk him down.

Maybe the Police had plenty of information about that address and who lived there ! !

RasTa · 14-04-2020 03:10PM

robinph wrote: »

Yes, I can see the difference.

The police in that video can't see that they are dealing with a nervous population and kicking the door down to a flat that has clearly not got a party with 30 people going on inside might be a bit excessive, regardless of the shouty response they got after they presumably shouted a lot from the other side of the door. They hardly turned up and went straight to door kicking. There must have been plenty of time to establish that the guy was alone.

Yes he was almost certainly telling them to f off before the door kicking. That's still not a reason to kick the door in though. It's on the police there to be responsible and defuse the situation. Unless they thought there was a danger to someone else in the flat, or to the guy him self then they should have been able to talk him down.

Rubbish. Thinking like this is why people over here and in Ireland think they can speak with police any way they want.

robinph · 14-04-2020 03:11PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Since assuming scenarios is permitted, here's one.

Police get notice of disturbance and go to check it out. At the premises they speak to occupier who refuses to open door and tells cops to f off. Cops dutifully take off.

Later the police are called again to the same premises to find there is a dead body, female, on the premises.

Twitter lights up.

"Disturbance" is just too unspecific. If the report was of an argument, a fight, a party, someone playing music too loud, someone doing DIY too loud then they can all be described as disturbances but you'd expect the person reporting it to have said something more than "disturbance" and that the police would have got that report passed onto them.

They didn't read the situation properly and over reacted.

Joe_ Public · 14-04-2020 03:33PM

robinph wrote: »

"Disturbance" is just too unspecific. If the report was of an argument, a fight, a party, someone playing music too loud, someone doing DIY too loud then they can all be described as disturbances but you'd expect the person reporting it to have said something more than "disturbance" and that the police would have got that report passed onto them.

They didn't read the situation properly and over reacted.

Yeah, we dont know what the police were told, well i dont anyway. To be honest, i never saw myself being in a position where I'd be defending police against allegations of over zealousness, but here we are! I've no doubt there probably are instances of police overreaction, but haven't seen any evidence in this case that qualifies.

robinph · 14-04-2020 03:42PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Yeah, we dont know what the police were told, well i dont anyway. To be honest, i never saw myself being in a position where I'd be defending police against allegations of over zealousness, but here we are! I've no doubt there probably are instances of police overreaction, but haven't seen any evidence in this case that qualifies.

I'm coming from the position of I see nothing that does justify their position from that video.

Yes, it's taken from the residents position so things may be skewed, but the police are not exactly trying to justify things themselves in the video which based on everyones positions at the start must only be seconds after the door went in. They then sheepishly look a little bit into a cupboard and partly around a door whilst putting their gloves on and leave whilst still putting the gloves on.

As for over reactions, there was another video a few days ago of someone being told to not be playing with their kid in their own front garden. I've seen several comments about the police going around bored out of their minds as they have nothing to do, not that they are currently overworked in dealing with crimes.

14-04-2020 03:42PM

robinph wrote: »

"Disturbance" is just too unspecific. If the report was of an argument, a fight, a party, someone playing music too loud, someone doing DIY too loud then they can all be described as disturbances but you'd expect the person reporting it to have said something more than "disturbance" and that the police would have got that report passed onto them.

They didn't read the situation properly and over reacted.

You have no idea what the call was, or what the police were told.
You don't know what happened before the video started.
You have no idea what the police did or didn't hear from outside the door.
You also have no idea of the local knowledge of those police, how often they are called to that address & for what reasons.

In other words, you have no idea of the knowledge those police had & that video is definitely not going to tell you.

robinph · 14-04-2020 03:53PM

bubblypop wrote: »

You have no idea what the call was, or what the police were told.
You don't know what happened before the video started.
You have no idea what the police did or didn't hear from outside the door.
You also have no idea of the local knowledge of those police, how often they are called to that address & for what reasons.

In other words, you have no idea of the knowledge those police had & that video is definitely not going to tell you.

And the police don't make any claims of having heard anything to justify their kicking the door, except the bloke didn't let them in, which isn't a reason.

Muahahaha · 14-04-2020 03:54PM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The UK media has decided Ireland is the best boy in class, or at least a better boy in class I see.

Probably started by Dr.Elaine Byrnes tweets comparing the two countries, the Guardian did an article on it yesterday

Comparing how the Covid-19 outbreak is playing out in Ireland and the UK is a complex task, researchers have said after a Twitter thread by a former historian on the issue went viral.

Writer and researcher Dr Elaine Doyle penned a series of tweets comparing the situations in the UK and Ireland, noting that both countries had similar numbers of intensive care beds per 100,000 people before the crisis began.

But, she wrote, “as of Saturday 11 April, there have been 6.5 deaths per 100,000 people in Ireland. There have been 14.81 deaths per 100,000 people in the UK.” Doyle went on to suggest that the difference in the way the pandemic is progressing in the two countries is that Ireland took stronger action sooner.

“While Boris [Johnson] was telling the British people to wash their hands, our taoiseach was closing the schools. While Cheltenham was going ahead, and over 250,000 people were gathering in what would have been a massive super-spreader event, Ireland had cancelled St Patrick’s Day,” she wrote, adding that watching British media was “like living in bizarro-world” compared with the messages on Irish TV news.

In the UK, the government urged against socialising, mass gathering and non-essential travel from 16 March and went into full lockdown on 23 March.
“Technically, the UK went into lockdown *before* Ireland; but that’s not a fair comparison, as we were already operating our ‘delay phase’ from 12-27 March,” Doyle wrote.

More detail here
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/13/experts-divided-comparison-uk-ireland-coronavirus-record

Harry Palmr · 14-04-2020 04:24PM

Read that, of course a German could clear their throat and say "well I know a country that's better than both of you". As such it's an article designed for clicks.

normanoffside · 14-04-2020 04:37PM

Watching the BBC, I see the UK are finally coming around to realising that a lot of additional people may have died in care homes/communities.

However thanks to their policy of only testing people in Hospitals, they will probably never know in a lot of cases.

maninasia · 14-04-2020 04:52PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Are there examples of countries who are doing ok without lockdowns? South Korea and Singapore are often mentioned. SK didnt fully lock down but interesting their testing figures are pretty similar to ours so either they're system was just so good, it helped them get on top of it or there are other factors too, just not getting as much attention.

Germany has good testing and tracing system but don't think there was any question of not locking down. Testing definitely key to success but as of now, there is just not the sufficient availability of materials to ensure a mass roll out all over the globe. Maybe that will change in time.

Taiwan is doing far better than all of them. Taiwan reported no coronavirus cases today. Taiwan uses robust quarantining, flight bans and entry bans, contact tracing and testing of those and mandatory usage of masks and temp checks in many public places. Taiwan got ahead of the curve, most countries are disastrously trying to play catch-up. The number of tests per head is actually low in Taiwan. There has never been any lockdown in Taiwan and kids are in school, most people in work and economy has some impact but minimal compared to almost every country worldwide. Six coronavirus deaths in entire country (22 million population ).
Significant factors are compulsory and strict quarantine for all people entering the country and those in contact with covid positives and very high usage of masks. The WHO and US CDC and Surgeon General misled other countries about the efficacy of masks in reducing transmission .

14-04-2020 04:54PM

normanoffside wrote: »

Watching the BBC, I see the UK are finally coming around to realising that a lot of additional people may have died in care homes/communities.

However thanks to their policy of only testing people in Hospitals, they will probably never know in a lot of cases.

The ONS were tasked with compiling this data weeks ago.

normanoffside · 14-04-2020 05:01PM

Aegir wrote: »

The ONS were tasked with compiling this data weeks ago.

They are going to have to Guesstimate because people in Homes were not/are not being tested and told not to come to hospitals (which is the only place they can be tested).

It's fudging the figures.

Enzokk · 14-04-2020 05:21PM

Lots of questions on the care homes death not being included in the overall numbers for deaths. Seems they cannot supply the numbers because of a non-answer and there are too many care homes and there are fewer NHS Trusts.

A question on why France deaths are included in the slide from care homes and the comparison is then made to the UK, again a non-answer about how other countries are doing it and they are learning about it. The question was why include the French home care deaths.

As for the numbers, this seems like a worry.

Government has misled public over UK deaths being lower than France

It comes after a study from the London School of Economics suggested between 42 per cent and 57 per cent of coronavirus deaths in Italy, Spain, France, Ireland and Belgium have been happening in care homes.

So we should almost double the deaths in the UK to get a fairer picture, right?

Enzokk · 14-04-2020 05:29PM

Rishi Sunak is psychic, he knows today that the decisions he will take in the future will be the right decisions. He has said a couple of times now that the decisions they will take in the future will be the right ones. I wish I had his confidence to predict the future.

At least he is quick on the uptake of the messaging, they took the right decision at the time they took it, or when they will have to take it in the future.

normanoffside · 14-04-2020 05:33PM

Enzokk wrote: »

Lots of questions on the care homes death not being included in the overall numbers for deaths. Seems they cannot supply the numbers because of a non-answer and there are too many care homes and there are fewer NHS Trusts.

A question on why France deaths are included in the slide from care homes and the comparison is then made to the UK, again a non-answer about how other countries are doing it and they are learning about it. The question was why include the French home care deaths.

As for the numbers, this seems like a worry.

Government has misled public over UK deaths being lower than France

So we should almost double the deaths in the UK to get a fairer picture, right?

It's an absolute shambles and caused by the fact that they generally only test in Hospital and have next to no community testing.

It has been long recommended that testing should not be done in hospitals where possible.

Laois_Man · 14-04-2020 05:37PM

So on Saturday, the UK Home Secretary said 334,974 Covid-19 tests have been carried out across the UK

Worldometers currently has it recorded as 382,650

Today the UK Chancellor said 302,599 have been tested!

Am I missing something or are they tripping over their lies?

devnull · 14-04-2020 05:38PM

Laois_Man wrote: »

So on Saturday, the UK Home Secretary said 334,974 Covid-19 tests have been carried out across the UK

Worldometers currently has it recorded as 382,650

Today the UK Chancellor said 302,599 have been tested!

Am I missing something or are they tripping over their lies?

Confusion between number of people tested and actually number of tests?
(some people have been tested more than once in some daily figures)

Enzokk · 14-04-2020 05:40PM

Laois_Man wrote: »

So on Saturday, the UK Home Secretary said 334,974 Covid-19 tests have been carried out across the UK

Worldometers currently has it recorded as 382,650

Today the UK Chancellor said 302,599 have been tested!

Am I missing something or are they tripping over their lies?

I think they are using different measures. They may have done 382 650 tests but only tested 302 599 people. Makes sense to throw as many figures out there to muddy the water as much as possible.

Joe_ Public · 14-04-2020 06:01PM

Well some credit due to Sunak there for at least appearing to give the most relevant figure. You'd simply expect them to give the highest figure available, even if it's a distortion.

theological · 14-04-2020 06:04PM

robinph wrote: »

And the police don't make any claims of having heard anything to justify their kicking the door, except the bloke didn't let them in, which isn't a reason.

It's worth adding to this that the police do not have unlimited right of entry into private property. The grounds are limited and it is important that police know the limits of what they can do. It is an important principle in a free country. If it looks like the police are going beyond their remit then I think it is right that the public challenge them.

Joe_ Public · 14-04-2020 06:24PM

theological wrote: »

It's worth adding to this that the police do not have unlimited right of entry into private property. The grounds are limited and it is important that police know the limits of what they can do. It is an important principle in a free country. If it looks like the police are going beyond their remit then I think it is right that the public challenge them.

Who is going to seriously object to this utterly generic statement?

Dave0301 · 14-04-2020 06:31PM

The medical experts are also asked if there is anything they regret in the UK's strategy.

Prof Yvonne Doyle, from Public Health England, says "undoubtedly we perhaps could have done things differently," but officials have been working "tirelessly" to better understand the virus.

Prof Stephen Powis, national medical director at NHS England, says it will take time to be able to "learn the right lessons".

The narrative is starting to change slightly in the UK it would seem. I have been critical of their approach from the start, but few countries have covered themselves in glory to be fair.

Sweden's approach is starting to look reckless in comparison to the UK.

Joe_ Public · 14-04-2020 07:40PM

Care home director on C4 news. Last week Hancock gave them a list of providers who could deliver ppe. When they called the numbers, they were all closed for Easter weekend.

Jesus!

Enzokk · 14-04-2020 08:35PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Care home director on C4 news. Last week Hancock gave them a list of providers who could deliver ppe. When they called the numbers, they were all closed for Easter weekend.

Jesus!

I think this will be the crises that should hurt the government. It shouldn't be the huge amount of dead in the hospitals but the way they let the care homes and elderly to die.

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1250138987857092608?s=20

'Are people dispensable?': care home manager tells how third of residents have died from Covid-19

Easter weekend brought despair rather than joy for Anita Astle, manager of the Wren Hall nursing home in Nottinghamshire. When she finished her shift on Sunday evening the suspected Covid-19 death toll among her residents had already reached nine. She had lost more than a third of the people she refers to as “family” to the highly contagious virus. Bedrooms were standing empty and staff were feeling “broken inside”. Then, on Easter Monday, she woke to news of a tenth fatality.

“When is it going to end?” she said by phone to the Guardian in tears shortly after hearing the news. “I left the building at 8.30pm and he died at 8.55pm. It is just soul destroying. We have deaths normally, but they are good deaths. We have the family around the person.”

Such is the danger of contagion that the only solace they could offer the family of one recent victim was for them to be present in the care home’s car park as his body was removed by undertakers at 11pm.

Then I think of what Cummings was reported to have said and for some reason you cannot help but believe that this was discussed among the staff at no.10, not that it was necessarily policy. Well if someone did say it then it had proven to be.

A Dub in Glasgo · 14-04-2020 08:37PM

The big stushie about PPE wholesalers refusing to sell to care homes in Wales and Scotland seems to stem from the following UK Government document which came out on Friday

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/879221/Coronavirus__COVID-19__-_personal_protective_equipment__PPE__plan.pdf

specifically section 1.38 which states

1.38
We recognise that the social care sector operates differently to the NHS, and we need to take different steps to ensure that providers can continue to access PPE. 23 million items of PPE have been released to designated wholesalers for onward sale to social care providers. We have made arrangements with seven wholesalers to supply PPE to the social care sector. Careshop, Blueleaf, Delivernet, Countrywide Healthcare, Nexon Group, Wightman and Parrish and Gompels will all provide supplies to care providers registered with the Care Quality Commission.

The Care Quality Commission register care homes in England only - the UK Govt are a joke

The Gompels website shows the following

Joe_ Public · 14-04-2020 08:42PM

I think of the care home director interviewed yesterday, when she was asked how she felt, just looked with her exhausted eyes into the camera and simply said: "broken." Harrowing.

Of course people will say this is reality everywhere, nursing homes suffering in every country. Nope. Everywhere is hit but the level of anger and hopelessness in the uk is a level i dont see here or anywhere. In italy maybe? Not even sure.

The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

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