The Chinese Big Lie

Yurt2 · 14-04-2020 12:25PM

We're all aware of the shortcomings of the responses in X,y and z western countries.

Let's be thankful we're permitted to criticize our governments and we have a free press and the rule of law to inquire and draw conclusions at the end of it.

Normally it's of little concequence to Western countries that people get silenced and screw-ups get buried in China.

This is one of those times that quite frankly we deserve good answers from the CCP who knew what, when did they know it, and what actions did they take / not take armed with that knowledge.

It will all come out in the wash in our societies, we may never know with the Chinese government. I think that's an outrage given what's gone on, but some people just want to shrug their shoulders.

You're getting a taste now, what a Chinese hegemony might look like. I don't like the look of it tbh.

cryptocurrency · 14-04-2020 12:29PM

Yurt! wrote: »

We're all aware of the shortcomings of the responses in X,y and z western countries.

Let's be thankful we're permitted to criticize our governments and we have a free press and the rule of law to inquire and draw conclusions at the end of it.

stop focusing on a few days in January like it would have made a blind bit of difference. The information was there, I took it and reacted, why didn't any government.

BanditLuke · 14-04-2020 12:43PM

Nothing to see here. Great bunch of lads etc..

BBC News - China McDonald apologises for Guangzhou ban on black people
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-52274326

Yurt2 · 14-04-2020 12:43PM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

stop focusing on a few days in January like it would have made a blind bit of difference. The information was there, I took it and reacted, why didn't any government.

Look, Given the timelines Central authorities almost certainly knew a transmissible SARS like virus was on the loose in the run-up to Chinese New Year.

Have you been in China around that period? It's the biggest annual mass migration on earth.

It's Cheltenham times a thousand (and that's an undersell).

That wasn't a woopsie. That was first-order incompetence.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/opinion/international/490258-what-did-chinas-xi-jinping-know-and-when-did-he-know-it%3famp

cryptocurrency · 14-04-2020 01:01PM

Yurt! wrote: »

Look, Given the timelines Central authorities almost certainly knew a transmissible SARS like virus was on the loose in the run-up to Chinese New Year.

Have you been in China around that period? It's the biggest annual mass migration on earth.

It's Cheltenham times a thousand (and that's an undersell).

That wasn't a woopsie. That was first-order incompetence.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/opinion/international/490258-what-did-chinas-xi-jinping-know-and-when-did-he-know-it%3famp

yeah and they shut down for new year. I had all my PPE, Toilet Roll, food stocks before thier new year and that was in dublin. whats your point?

Yurt2 · 14-04-2020 01:23PM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

yeah and they shut down for new year. I had all my PPE, Toilet Roll, food stocks before thier new year and that was in dublin. whats your point?

Champ, Chinese New Year travel begins up to 14 days before the celebration. Nationwide shutdowns only began on the 24th. Millions had left both Wuhan and Hubei and were swilling around China when we can be reasonably sure that (and I'm being kind here) central government at least had a high degree of suspicion for a number of weeks that a SARS like virus could be on the loose.

The old cliche of closing the horse bolting applies here.

This wasn't an oopsie, it was (being kind again) rank incompetence

2u2me · 14-04-2020 01:52PM

Wibbs wrote: »

If you were a farmer who discovered some of your herd in one paddock had foot and mouth, but you kept it quiet and quarantined them from the rest of your herd, but then let them be sent off to market to mingle with other farmer's stock. While bitching and moaning to all that would listen that not to be allowed do this was prejudice against you. Would you consider that morally OK? Would the other farmers? Would you blame the other farmers? My bollocks you would. Your continuing defence of and support for that tinpot dictatorship is frankly baffling at this stage.

If your analogy was correct I would be in agreement with you. I believe there are some errors.

The farmer discovered F&M and quarantined his herd from the rest. Perhaps he even kept it quiet for 1-2 weeks.
He discovered the feed was giving F&M to his herd, the feed he had created and the feed he had supplied to the rest of the farmers.

He then told the rest of the farmers the feed was tainted. The rest of the farmers decided two months later to stop giving the tainted feed to their herd. In fact they were laughing at the original farmer as he quarantined his herd.

It is not up to the original farmer to decide what other farmers feed their livestock.

2u2me · 14-04-2020 02:01PM

Yurt! wrote: »

Champ, Chinese New Year travel begins up to 14 days before the celebration. Nationwide shutdowns only began on the 24th.

There is an aljazeera timeline I'm struggling to find again where it notes that the 20thJan was the day news of H2H transmission was freely available to the world. That is the day the Chinese authorities began shutdown. It was near impossible to do on that day as you say there were so many people travelling.

I suspect they could have covered it up for a week or two to allow these celebrations. No evidence as of yet though; I'm happy to be proven wrong/right. Even then we didn't take it seriously.

Where does blame end and our responsibility start? Look at Taiwain, they clearly knew nothing more than we did and they were able to lockdown efficiently and immediately. Weren't Taiwan given adequate time to act?

Wibbs · 14-04-2020 02:08PM

2u2me wrote: »

If your analogy was correct I would be in agreement with you. I believe there are some errors.

Nope. Sorry. He stopped feeding the tainted feed to his cows, but passed it on to the rest of the farmers.

The single plain unalloyed fact is the Chinese government locked down internal travel to stop the virus spreading internally, but left international travel from an acknowledged by them virus ground zero hotspot open while doing so. This is incontrovertible. That they were so deliberate in locking down their own nation and one of the biggest cities in it to stop spread, leaving outgoing flights from that same city and the rest of the country is puzzling. It's either incompetence or they quite simply didn't give a toss about the non Chinese world, or worse realised it would screw them economically if it were "just" a Chinese emergency like SARS, so better to screw everybody else and level the economic hit to them.

Likely? I doubt it was just that, but I would not put it past the Chinese government to not at least consider that. It's a totalitarian state with a large dollop of dictatorship and an even larger dollop of xenophobia. A xenophobia that's pretty dug in culturally.

Wibbs · 14-04-2020 02:11PM

2u2me wrote: »

Where does blame end and our responsibility start? Look at Taiwain, they clearly knew nothing more than we did and they were able to lockdown efficiently and immediately. Weren't Taiwan given adequate time to act?

If someone drops bombs on my city, yes I can take responsibility if I don't roll out air defences in case they do it again, but I still apportion blame to the pricks who dropped the bombs in the first place. It's not an either or scenario.

Podge201 · 14-04-2020 02:36PM

China approving two human trials of vaccines. Mighty bunch of lads, they will save the day.

2u2me · 14-04-2020 02:38PM

Wibbs wrote: »

If someone drops bombs on my city, yes I can take responsibility if I don't roll out air defences in case they do it again, but I still apportion blame to the pricks who dropped the bombs in the first place. It's not an either or scenario.[...]
The single plain unalloyed fact is the Chinese government locked down internal travel to stop the virus spreading internally, but left international travel from an acknowledged by them virus ground zero hotspot open while doing so. This is incontrovertible.

We willfully allowed those 'bombs' through airport security. We could have stopped them anywhere along the way. Inbound flights are our business. Outbound flights aren't the business of China, I'm pretty sure this is not how international relations work.

The fact remains China closed their inbound flights week after the 20th when news was out. We didn't.

What if there was some Irish people stuck in China and China wasn't allowing them to leave? It could cause an international incident. Especially for those 2 months while we were laughing at China going into lockdown(myself included).

Inbound flights our problem. Outbound flights not our responsibility.

China has now started to ban inbound flights to their country for fear of reinfection, especially to those countries which closed their borders to them early.

Let's say we had some dead people die here in Ireland from an unknown disease. Would we shut up the country and cancel all outbound flights immediately? Like feckin' heck we would.

BarryD2 · 14-04-2020 03:03PM

Yurt! wrote: »

Champ, Chinese New Year travel begins up to 14 days before the celebration. Nationwide shutdowns only began on the 24th. Millions had left both Wuhan and Hubei and were swilling around China when we can be reasonably sure that (and I'm being kind here) central government at least had a high degree of suspicion for a number of weeks that a SARS like virus could be on the loose.

Which implies what is widely suspected - that the virus was/ is still rampant in many parts of China. But reports of which are being rigorously suppressed. The big lie of the title of this thread.

cryptocurrency · 14-04-2020 03:09PM

BarryD2 wrote: »

Which implies what is widely suspected - that the virus was/ is still rampant in many parts of China. But reports of which are being rigorously suppressed. The big lie of the title of this thread.

but still wriggling it's way through the crowds avoiding all of the expats, their friends, family and all leaked foottage...clever virus.

Kermit.de.frog · 14-04-2020 03:17PM

The Washington Post today has an article on diplomatic cables obtained showing US official concerns regarding the lab in Wuhan as far back as January 2018

What the U.S. officials learned during their visits concerned them so much that they dispatched two diplomatic cables categorized as Sensitive But Unclassified back to Washington. The cables warned about safety and management weaknesses at the WIV lab and proposed more attention and help. The first cable, which I obtained, also warns that the lab’s work on bat coronaviruses and their potential human transmission represented a risk of a new SARS-like pandemic.

"During interactions with scientists at the WIV laboratory, they noted the new lab has a serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment laboratory," reads a January, 2018 cable drafted by two officials from the embassy's environment, science and health sections who met with scientists from the WIV.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/

Wibbs · 14-04-2020 03:25PM

2u2me wrote: »

We willfully allowed those 'bombs' through airport security. We could have stopped them anywhere along the way. Inbound flights are our business. Outbound flights aren't the business of China, I'm pretty sure this is not how international relations work.

So in your Chinese version of "international relations", you protect your own while passing on the infection to others? Sounds Chinese alright.

What if there was some Irish people stuck in China and China wasn't allowing them to leave? It could cause an international incident. Especially for those 2 months while we were laughing at China going into lockdown(myself included).

Eh plenty of non Chinese were stuck in China under lockdown. You seem to have forgotten the flights the British sent to get those who wanted to leave out and back to quarantine,including one Irish lad who became well known on youtube for a while. No "international incident".

China has now started to ban inbound flights to their country for fear of reinfection, especially to those countries which closed their borders to them early.

Oh so now the Chinese have the hump over others doing what you suggested we should have done? You couldn't make this up.

Never mind the almighty Party letting rumours of foreigners spreading contagion back into the country and that it didn't even start there. The very country whose backwards medieval practices caused it in the first place, whose same backwards take on foreigners will lap this guff up. They have a neck as hard as a jockey's bollocks. Though not a shock.

Let's say we had some dead people die here in Ireland from an unknown disease. Would we shut up the country and cancel all outbound flights immediately? Like feckin' heck we would.

If we had a disease so serious that we locked down Dublin completely and banned flights to Cork and Shannon and yet kept the London, Paris, Madrid, Moscow et al routes open? There would be a major sh1tshow over such a decision. Then again news would have reached the rest of the world and our own people far faster, we wouldn't have punished doctors for telling people, or stopped the press from reporting it. Meanwhile in that corrupt totalitarian sh1thole...

Wibbs · 14-04-2020 03:28PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The Washington Post today has an article on diplomatic cables obtained showing US official concerns regarding the lab in Wuhan as far back as January 2018

TBH K I trust some US "sources" just as much as Chinese "sources" on a lot of fronts. The war of words has kicked off in a big way. Maybe not nearly as hamfisted a way as the Chinese government operate their propaganda, but even a free press can be nudged in one direction or the other.

2u2me · 14-04-2020 03:35PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Eh plenty of non Chinese were stuck in China under lockdown. You seem to have forgotten the flights the British sent to get those who wanted to leave out and back to quarantine,including one Irish lad who became well known on youtube for a while. No "international incident".

You're sidestepping the point here. The point you were making is that China should have closed all outbound flights. If they had then no Irish person could have returned, and it could have caused an international incident. Likewise with many other countries.

If we shutdown our internal flights we would still be allowing outbound flights for people to return home etc.. our problem is our borders. Government powers don't extend beyond that.

alwald · 14-04-2020 03:46PM

There is no doubt that the Chinese government hid a lot of information and they should be held accountable for the current situation and deaths of the rest of the world.

silverharp · 14-04-2020 03:52PM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

how much do you think the face mask industry is making compared to closing the whole economy for two months and restricting it since. Are you like 12 years old?

you went out of your way to misread my post. China had a financial incentive to infect the world v closing their borders to avoid infecting the world which they would have to have done anyway. That's a clear proposition , they had a motive, nothing to do with face masks

Yurt2 · 14-04-2020 03:59PM

2u2me wrote: »

You're sidestepping the point here. The point you were making is that China should have closed all outbound flights. If they had then no Irish person could have returned, and it could have caused an international incident. Likewise with many other countries.

If we shutdown our internal flights we would still be allowing outbound flights for people to return home etc.. our problem is our borders. Government powers don't extend beyond that.

They did shut down outbound international flights out of Wuhan eventually (far too late): you may have noted the Irish teacher in Wuhan was repatriated on a British government organized flight.

Yurt2 · 14-04-2020 04:04PM

Wibbs wrote: »

TBH K I trust some US "sources" just as much as Chinese "sources" on a lot of fronts. The war of words has kicked off in a big way. Maybe not nearly as hamfisted a way as the Chinese government operate their propaganda, but even a free press can be nudged in one direction or the other.

Career State Department folks are level-headed, extremely adept and are frequently experts in the country they serve in. They're not the CIA psy-ops unit (if that exists outside of pulp fiction).

If there are cables suggesting something is amiss as above, I'd be paying attention.

cryptocurrency · 14-04-2020 04:13PM

silverharp wrote: »

you went out of your way to misread my post. China had a financial incentive to infect the world v closing their borders to avoid infecting the world which they would have to have done anyway. That's a clear proposition , they had a motive, nothing to do with face masks

you cen't possibly believe that

bob mcbob · 14-04-2020 04:22PM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

but still wriggling it's way through the crowds avoiding all of the expats, their friends, family and all leaked foottage...clever virus.

The joke on Chinese social media in January was that it was the "patriotic virus". Made in Wuhan but for export only. There were recorded cases in many SE Asian countries before the CCP acknowledged it outside of Hubei.

maninasia · 14-04-2020 04:27PM

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Thats actually an extreme fast timeframe and by the 10th the world new the virus and even had it's make up. You've done nothing but support how fast they acted.

Could you imagine if that took place in europe or the US? shambles

They knew it already end of Dec , start of Jan but falsely told the WHO that there was no human to human transmission . They waited weeks and weeks allowing the virus to spread uncontrollably around the world.

That's a BIG F*-Ging DEAL.

They also shut down the first docs reports from wuhan

They also cried foul when their countries banned their flights coming in .

maninasia · 14-04-2020 04:30PM

alwald wrote: »

There is no doubt that the Chinese government hid a lot of information and they should be held accountable for the current situation and deaths of the rest of the world.

Amen

XsApollo · 14-04-2020 04:32PM

The Head of the WHO accusing Taiwan of Racism towards him.

Has he said anything about the treatment of black people in China the last week or 2 and treatment of people viewed as foreigners in that country the last few weeks.
Will keep his Buddy Xi happy.

Also accused of covering up Cholera epidemics in Ethiopia when he was health minister.
How the hell does someone with that accusation become the head of the World health organisation?

BanditLuke · 14-04-2020 04:46PM

XsApollo wrote: »

The Head of the WHO accusing Taiwan of Racism towards him.

Has he said anything about the treatment of black people in China the last week or 2 and treatment of people viewed as foreigners in that country the last few weeks.
Will keep his Buddy Xi happy.

Also accused of covering up Cholera epidemics in Ethiopia when he was health minister.
How the hell does someone with that accusation become the head of the World health organisation?

The guy has zero credibility. Might as well have Winnie the Pooh up there himself.

Yurt2 · 14-04-2020 04:57PM

BanditLuke wrote: »

The guy has zero credibility. Might as well have Winnie the Pooh up there himself.

I just read this guy's wiki. Holy smokes, he tried to appoint Robert Mugabe as a WHO goodwill ambassador as one of his first acts as Director General in 2017 :eek::eek::eek:

Robert Mugabe of all people.

His campaign was also funded with millions of dollars from the rebranded Marxist-Leninist party of Ethiopia.

The guy has gotta go.

cryptocurrency · 14-04-2020 06:00PM

bob mcbob wrote: »

The joke on Chinese social media in January was that it was the "patriotic virus". Made in Wuhan but for export only. There were recorded cases in many SE Asian countries before the CCP acknowledged it outside of Hubei.

not really. countires like Mongolia and Lao were smarter than the G7

The Chinese Big Lie

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