The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

13-04-2020 08:57PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Ons figures 2 weeks behind. Every day government and cmo go to press briefings and deal on the basis of official figures they know to be seriously underestimating the truth. People are not happy about that.

Just to be clear on other point: we cant trust the irish figures because I'm interested in what happens in uk?

What did you make of the whistlebower on channel 4 tonight btw?

The ONS figures are very complex and involve looking at every death certificate issued. That isn’t exactly a small job. They go in to very good detail about it on their website, if you’d care to read it.

Every day the Irish government don’t even present figures, they hide behind the CMO for Ireland. The Irish figures are nowhere near accurate and no one is holding the government to task on that, even the questions being asked by the Journal are being dealt with by the HSE. Effectively asking them to check their own numbers. I bet AGS wish they’d been asked to do that with their breathalyzer figures.

I know Irish governments are never held to task over anything. Hell even Bertie was at the centre of one of the biggest enquiries this state has ever seen and people still turned out in their droves to vote for him.

Surely now is the time for the Irish to stop being so obsessed with the UK and start questioning their own government?

It won’t happen though, because people are obsessed.

13-04-2020 09:00PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Thats one thing i totally agree with. Ireland probably not the best comparative index. We should really be comparing the UK in every aspect with Germany and see how far the Germans lag behind the oft described "best health system in the world."

Not France? Or is that not convenient enough?

13-04-2020 09:01PM

Aegir wrote: »

The ONS figures are very complex and involve looking at every death certificate issued. That isn’t exactly a small job. They go in to very good detail about it on their website, if you’d care to read it.

Every day the Irish government don’t even present figures, they hide behind the CMO for Ireland. The Irish figures are nowhere near accurate and no one is holding the government to task on that, even the questions being asked by the Journal are being dealt with by the HSE. Effectively asking them to check their own numbers. I bet AGS wish they’d been asked to do that with their breathalyzer figures.

I know Irish governments are never held to task over anything. Hell even Bertie was at the centre of one of the biggest enquiries this state has ever seen and people still turned out in their droves to vote for him.

Surely now is the time for the Irish to stop being so obsessed with the UK and start questioning their own government?

It won’t happen though, because people are obsessed.

What irish death figures are inaccurate??

Surely the rather horriffic death rate in the uk,can be traced back to going for herd immunity vs lockdown....

you reap,what you sow in this life,the uk government gambled,they knew best...contary to international advice and now are reaping the deaths from bullish nonsense......a nuremberg type trial johnson and the whoever adviced him,should face

declanflynn · 13-04-2020 09:01PM

Aegir wrote: »

The ONS figures are very complex and involve looking at every death certificate issued. That isn’t exactly a small job. They go in to very good detail about it on their website, if you’d care to read it.

Every day the Irish government don’t even present figures, they hide behind the CMO for Ireland. The Irish figures are nowhere near accurate and no one is holding the government to task on that, even the questions being asked by the Journal are being dealt with by the HSE. Effectively asking them to check their own numbers. I bet AGS wish they’d been asked to do that with their breathalyzer figures.

I know Irish governments are never held to task over anything. Hell even Bertie was at the centre of one of the biggest enquiries this state has ever seen and people still turned out in their droves to vote for him.

Surely now is the time for the Irish to stop being so obsessed with the UK and start questioning their own government?

It won’t happen though, because people are obsessed.

yeah and it's bad enough that the natives want to live here, but imagine the IQ of the brits that are here

Enzokk · 13-04-2020 09:02PM

About the PPE shortages,

UK missed three chances to join EU scheme to bulk-buy PPE

So there is a case of the emails being sent to outdated email addresses, but there are still so many missed opportunities from the UK to have acted to join this process.

The EU’s procurement of 28 February initially failed due to a lack of interest from suppliers but was relaunched on 15 March, providing additional time for the UK to get involved if it had chosen to do so.

It is understood that officials in Whitehall only realised after those three rounds had been put out to tender that they had not received invitations to join the Joint Procurement Agreement steering committee where the orders are organised.

The UK only took part in its first meeting on joint procurement on 19 March after informing the commission that emails of invitation were being sent to an outdated address, the Guardian has learned.

Despite that belated show of interest, British officials did not attend a separate meeting of health officials on 25 March where participants were invited to spell out their requirements for future purchases to the commission by the next day.

So they missed out on the relaunched appeal on the 17th March because the emails was sent to the wrong place. Bad luck, but someone explain to me how they missed the meeting on the 25th March to discuss future purchases? What half arsed response to a crises is this?

Joe_ Public · 13-04-2020 09:03PM

Aegir wrote: »

The ONS figures are very complex and involve looking at every death certificate issued. That isn’t exactly a small job. They go in to very good detail about it on their website, if you’d care to read it.

Every day the Irish government don’t even present figures, they hide behind the CMO for Ireland. The Irish figures are nowhere near accurate and no one is holding the government to task on that, even the questions being asked by the Journal are being dealt with by the HSE. Effectively asking them to check their own numbers. I bet AGS wish they’d been asked to do that with their breathalyzer figures.

I know Irish governments are never held to task over anything. Hell even Bertie was at the centre of one of the biggest enquiries this state has ever seen and people still turned out in their droves to vote for him.

Surely now is the time for the Irish to stop being so obsessed with the UK and start questioning their own government?

It won’t happen though, because people are obsessed.

I posted ONS links here two weeks ago and have been visiting it every day in anticipation of updates. If all you know of irelands situation is some flier of a story in the journal, then its a bit laughable tbh. If you'd posted a daily express link I'd probably have given it more credence.

13-04-2020 09:07PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

I posted ONS links here two weeks ago and have been visiting it every day in anticipation of updates. If all you know of irelands situation is some flier of a story in the journal, then its a bit laughable tbh. If you'd posted a daily express link I'd probably have given it more credence.

So no Irish equivalent of the ONS figures and no attempt to come up with anything.

Does this not concern you?

Joe_ Public · 13-04-2020 09:07PM

Aegir wrote: »

Not France? Or is that not convenient enough?

Nah, just i believe a mighty independent trading superpower like britain with the worlds most envied health system should really aim higher than that.

13-04-2020 09:09PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Nah, just i believe a mighty independent trading superpower like britain with the worlds most envied health system should really aim higher than that.

So comparing the UK with a country that has a similar population, a similar dominance of its capital city and very similar demographics, not to mention daily flights to Wuhan isn’t convenient then?

Enzokk · 13-04-2020 09:10PM

Here is the Channel 4 News segment on the figures.

13-04-2020 09:10PM

Enzokk wrote: »

About the PPE shortages,

UK missed three chances to join EU scheme to bulk-buy PPE

So there is a case of the emails being sent to outdated email addresses, but there are still so many missed opportunities from the UK to have acted to join this process.

So they missed out on the relaunched appeal on the 17th March because the emails was sent to the wrong place. Bad luck, but someone explain to me how they missed the meeting on the 25th March to discuss future purchases? What half arsed response to a crises is this?

You mean they missed the chance to buy ****ty PPE?

Bummer.

13-04-2020 09:13PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What irish death figures are inaccurate??

Surely the rather horriffic death rate in the uk,can be traced back to going for herd immunity vs lockdown....

you reap,what you sow in this life,the uk government gambled,they knew best...contary to international advice and now are reaping the deaths from bullish nonsense......a nuremberg type trial johnson and the whoever adviced him,should face

What do think “flattening the curve” actually means?

There are two ways this will end (well three, but I’m discounting the extinction level event).

One is a vaccine, which is a year away, the other is by creating herd immunity. We are only flattening the curve to prevent the health services getting overwhelmed.

Enzokk · 13-04-2020 09:13PM

Aegir wrote: »

You mean they missed the chance to buy ****ty PPE?

Bummer.

And proof you didn't read the article or didn't read it well enough, I mean it was the second paragraph that stated,

European doctors and nurses are preparing to receive the first of €1.5bn (£1.3bn) worth of personal protective equipment (PPE) within days or a maximum of two weeks through a joint procurement scheme involving 25 countries and eight companies, according to internal EU documents.

I guess when you have made up your mind already there is no need to inform yourself.

declanflynn · 13-04-2020 09:17PM

Enzokk wrote: »

And proof you didn't read the article or didn't read it well enough, I mean it was the second paragraph that stated,

I guess when you have made up your mind already there is no need to inform yourself.

The uk government say the NHS has enough ppe, why dont people believe them

theological · 13-04-2020 09:18PM

France are extending their lockdown, but hope to progressively open schools from mid May.

The UK look set to extend theirs also, with Patrick Vallance saying that the lockdown measures will be in place for at least another month.

Joe_ Public · 13-04-2020 09:18PM

Aegir wrote: »

So comparing the UK with a country that has a similar population, a similar dominance of its capital city and very similar demographics, not to mention daily flights to Wuhan isn’t convenient then?

You do what you like, frankly. Knock yourself out. France or even Spain suffering badly isnt exactly a shock to me. I innocently thought UK people saw themselves a bit above those nations in terms of stature and clout, but maybe i dont know them that well and they're much more humble than i thought.

declanflynn · 13-04-2020 09:18PM

Interesting comparison between Ireland and the uk on sky news now

Enzokk · 13-04-2020 09:21PM

Aegir wrote: »

So comparing the UK with a country that has a similar population, a similar dominance of its capital city and very similar demographics, not to mention daily flights to Wuhan isn’t convenient then?

But how can you compare the two when the UK only counts hospital deaths with confirmed covid cases in their numbers but France counts those in retirement homes? So we will have to wait until the ONS releases their figures, which is later to make a comparison to France.

13-04-2020 09:22PM

Aegir wrote: »

What do think “flattening the curve” actually means?

There are two ways this will end (well three, but I’m discounting the extinction level event).

One is a vaccine, which is a year away, the other is by creating herd immunity. We are only flattening the curve to prevent the health services getting overwhelmed.

Yes???

This deosnt explain,where or why you think irish death figures are inaccurate

A Dub in Glasgo · 13-04-2020 09:32PM

Just on the death figures - the more accurate Scottish figures are released weekly (on Wednesday for deaths up to the Sunday prior) which includes deaths where COVID-19 is confirmed and suspected. The daily figures are only confirmed dead in hospital. Last week was the first release which showed 354 deaths versus the daily cumulative of 220 (upto 5th April)

Professor Moriarty · 13-04-2020 09:34PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Just on the death figures - the more accurate Scottish figures are released weekly (on Wednesday for deaths up to the Sunday prior) which includes deaths where COVID-19 is confirmed and suspected. The daily figures are only confirmed dead in hospital. Last week was the first release which showed 354 deaths versus the daily cumulative of 220 (upto 5th April)

Could that ratio be extrapolated across the UK?

13-04-2020 09:41PM

Enzokk wrote: »

But how can you compare the two when the UK only counts hospital deaths with confirmed covid cases in their numbers but France counts those in retirement homes? So we will have to wait until the ONS releases their figures, which is later to make a comparison to France.

Does France five that figure daily? My understanding is that the collection of data is broadly similar, with France also doing a collation process.

13-04-2020 09:41PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes???

This deosnt explain,where or why you think irish death figures are inaccurate

Because they only include people who have tested positive.

A Dub in Glasgo · 13-04-2020 09:43PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Could that ratio be extrapolated across the UK?

A statistician probably could but needs to consider that Scotland was not as infected as parts of England and the measures taken probably saved more lives in Scotland. Looking at the official death figure in the UK of 11,329 of which 575 are in Scotland. Scotland makes up 8%-9% of the UK population but only has 5% of deaths. What this tells me is that the UK Govt should have dealt with this virus a lot earlier for areas of the UK that were infected earlier and with higher population density (ie lockdown London first and then progressively lockdown the other parts).

That is the real failure of leadership in the UK

Seth Brundle · 13-04-2020 09:44PM

declanflynn wrote: »

The uk government say the NHS has enough ppe, why dont people believe them

What do the staff in the NHS say?

Memnoch · 13-04-2020 09:48PM

Enzokk wrote: »

But how can you compare the two when the UK only counts hospital deaths with confirmed covid cases in their numbers but France counts those in retirement homes? So we will have to wait until the ONS releases their figures, which is later to make a comparison to France.

I don't think that the ONS figures can be considered necessarily authoritative moving forward either.

Considering the extent they have gone to to avoid testing and minimize the mortality rate there is little to suggest that they will not use their power in government to influence the statistics from the ONS as well.

We have already had reports of a whistleblower on Channel 4 news saying that suspected Covid deaths are not being characterized as such.

ultimately, we will have to take the official toll and double it for what can only be considered to be a conservative estimate. But we will never know the truth thanks to the mendacity of this government.

VinLieger · 13-04-2020 10:01PM

Aegir wrote: »

So no Irish equivalent of the ONS figures and no attempt to come up with anything.

Does this not concern you?

Lets get back on topic.

Thr ONS figures when published are not being added to the official total does this not concern you?

13-04-2020 10:07PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

What do the staff in the NHS say?

From what I can gather, The issues aren’t so much with the NHS staff, more with GPS, care homes and care visitors. The PPE is in stock, but it is a massive logistical problem getting it to where it is needed. I can’t remember the exact numbers, but Matt Hancock said NHS Supply Chain normally supplies to 32 hospital trusts, they are now supply to over 56,000 individual establishments. That is why the army have been brought in to shift some of this stuff, because the logistics companies just can’t cope.

They stocked up because of Brexit and replenishment is happening, but fulfillment is still an issue.

13-04-2020 10:09PM

VinLieger wrote: »

Lets get back on topic.

Thr ONS figures when published are not being added to the official total does this not concern you?

Not as much as I’d be concerned if they were not being recorded at all.

13-04-2020 10:11PM

Memnoch wrote: »

I don't think that the ONS figures can be considered necessarily authoritative moving forward either.

Considering the extent they have gone to to avoid testing and minimize the mortality rate there is little to suggest that they will not use their power in government to influence the statistics from the ONS as well.

We have already had reports of a whistleblower on Channel 4 news saying that suspected Covid deaths are not being characterized as such.

ultimately, we will have to take the official toll and double it for what can only be considered to be a conservative estimate. But we will never know the truth thanks to the mendacity of this government.

GPs are under pressure because there are a lot of sick people at the moment, not pressure from the government to falsify the figures.

The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

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