The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

Joe_ Public · 10-04-2020 01:19PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Which is the lesser of two evils? Or perhaps they could just test the elderly people before sending them back. Wouldn't that make perfect sense?

Sounds like a reasonable idea to me anyway.

bob mcbob · 10-04-2020 01:27PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Which is the lesser of two evils? Or perhaps they could just test the elderly people before sending them back. Wouldn't that make perfect sense?

Absolutely in an ideal world testing is the solution. However the situation with testing in the UK is very far from being an ideal world.
And this is something that the UK Government has absolutely F***ed up on. No ifs, buts or maybes.

So currently which is the lesser 2 evils?

Enzokk · 10-04-2020 01:32PM

bob mcbob wrote: »

Absolutely in an ideal world testing is the solution. However the situation with testing in the UK is very far from being an ideal world.
And this is something that the UK Government has absolutely F***ed up on. No ifs, buts or maybes.

So currently which is the lesser 2 evils?

I would say, not sending people out to the community which is the most vulnerable without a test to confirm they are not carrying the disease. You don't make a screw up better by adding to the risk for people you are supposed to protect. If you send someone who has the virus back to a care home and they infect others you are sentencing them to death most likely. Then they either die without treatment at the care home because the NHS is overrun, or you clog up the hospitals with cases you could have stopped.

Just because it is difficult doesn't mean you don't do it properly.

Do what the WHO has been advising, TEST, TEST, TEST!!

Professor Moriarty · 10-04-2020 01:33PM

bob mcbob wrote: »

Absolutely in an ideal world testing is the solution. However the situation with testing in the UK is very far from being an ideal world.
And this is something that the UK Government has absolutely F***ed up on. No ifs, buts or maybes.

So currently which is the lesser 2 evils?

Indeed they have. If there is absolutely no choice then under no circumstances should they be returned to a care home. But I don't see it as either/or. These patients should be prioritsed for testing because of the danger this particular vulnerable cohort might be to other similarly vulnerable people in care homes.

Joe_ Public · 10-04-2020 01:39PM

We are just touching on a core truth here. The official decision has already being made that elderly people will not be the priority and keeping as many out of hospital as possible will be key to freeing up space as they approach the peak.

Judging from a lot of impassioned cries for help from the care sector, the big thing is if your going to put us in that position at least give us the weapons to cope. Money, staff expertise, ppe, proper resources.

That's why they are feeling abandoned. Like a battalion being left behind by an army in retreat, but being given hardly any ammunition.

Professor Moriarty · 10-04-2020 01:40PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

We are just touching on a core truth here. The official decision has already being made that elderly people will not be the priority and keeping as many out of hospital as possible will be key to freeing up space as they approach the peak.

Judging from a lot of impassioned cries for help from the care sector, the big thing is if your going to put us in that position at least give us the weapons to cope. Money, staff expertise, ppe, proper resources.

That's why they are feeling abandoned. Like a battalion being left behind by an army in retreat, but being given hardly any ammunition.

Well put.

bob mcbob · 10-04-2020 01:47PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

We are just touching on a core truth here. The official decision has already being made that elderly people will not be the priority and keeping as many out of hospital as possible will be key to freeing up space as they approach the peak.

Judging from a lot of impassioned cries for help from the care sector, the big thing is if your going to put us in that position at least give us the weapons to cope. Money, staff expertise, ppe, proper resources.

That's why they are feeling abandoned. Like a battalion being left behind by an army in retreat, but being given hardly any ammunition.

If you believe that, and I am not going to say anything on it, then it has been a decision made in many countries including Ireland.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/09/care-homes-across-globe-in-spotlight-over-covid-19-death-rates

Professor Moriarty · 10-04-2020 01:52PM

bob mcbob wrote: »

If you believe that, and I am not going to say anything on it, then it has been a decision made in many countries including Ireland.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/09/care-homes-across-globe-in-spotlight-over-covid-19-death-rates

Ireland's response would appear to be light years ahead. From the article:

Ireland reported coronavirus clusters in 86 nursing homes on Wednesday, more than double the number from last Saturday, fuelling accusations that authorities moved too slowly to protect some of those most vulnerable to the disease.

Officials became alarmed last weekend when there were 40 clusters and announced measures to help nursing homes, including the creation of national and regional infection-control teams, temperature screening of staff twice a day and financial support of up to €72m.

Most of the outbreaks are in private facilities, with a minority in those run by the health service. The nursing home sector welcomed the support and said it could cope if staff were given training and equipment.

Joe_ Public · 10-04-2020 01:54PM

bob mcbob wrote: »

If you believe that, and I am not going to say anything on it, then it has been a decision made in many countries including Ireland.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/09/care-homes-across-globe-in-spotlight-over-covid-19-death-rates

Logic would suggest if i posted it, i believe it. Anyone is free to take issue, though i believe there is a wealth of anecdotal, overwhelmingly so, evidence from care home staff and officials, as well as published government guidelines to back it up, all linked in previous posts so I'm not going to go to trouble again.

I dont believe i ever suggested it was unique to the uk. Germany are having problems just as much as anywhere, but they will cope better as always. I dont think ireland is at that stage yet but there is enough to be worried about.

punisher5112 · 10-04-2020 02:05PM

I'm not surprised at all that nursing homes are been hit, staff in many cases aren't adhering to the rules of keeping distance between them and others.
These in some cases are using the buses to get in and out and aren't taking any precautions at all from what I witness....

devnull · 10-04-2020 02:26PM

953 further deaths reported today
866 in England
48 in Scotland
29 in Wales
10 in NI

Again most of these are not dated from yesterday and mostly historical deaths dating back a few days.

Would expect to see a dip in figures reported on Saturday/Sunday/Monday/Tuesday because of all of these reporting days will cover a weekend and/or bank holiday.

The figures presented on Wednesday are likely to be the biggest yet I'd say with that in mind.

2pints · 10-04-2020 02:59PM

This is typical for people in the UK at work who are being threatened by management and forced to ignore social distancing

youtube.com/watch?v=I_zTynRySvI ( still being prevented form posting links)

Each time a story like this leaks the companies put something out about it being a one off, an administration error, or a breach where the employees who have leaked the infomration/news will be investigated in line with the company's grievance and disciplinary procedures

The towns and city centres are quite some places have been forced to shut ( cinemas/pubs/clubs and some retailers high street stores) but workplaces are not taking any of this seriously Staff at places still functioning are under threat of loosing their jobs if they speak out, try to follow social distancing, or take action to protect themselves and family, and that's not just food suppliers, its companies selling novelty items/ craft items, and other non essential to definitely not essential items

Joe_ Public · 10-04-2020 03:05PM

Interesting point i missed from yesterday press conference. Prof John Newton of PHE conceded there would be no antibody test before may at the earliest. So did that have implications for the end of April 100,000 test a day target?

"We're not relying on antibody tests to make up that target," Newton said.

So no ambivalence. 100,000 swab tests a day by 30 April. I think the current total is around 15,000 or less.

ChikiChiki · 10-04-2020 03:08PM

Trying to digest Stanley Johnsons latest comments that his son took one for the team to make the British public realise how serious this is.

This the same man who was going the pub a few weeks back despite Govt advise and today from his country retreat in Devon.

Absolutely astounding levels of hypocrisy.

devnull · 10-04-2020 03:11PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Interesting point i missed from yesterday press conference. Prof John Newton of PHE conceded there would be no antibody test before may at the earliest. So did that have implications for the end of April 100,000 test a day target?

"We're not relying on antibody tests to make up that target," Newton said.

So no ambivalence. 100,000 swab tests a day by 30 April. I think the current total is around 15,000 or less.

They're bringing in so called 'Surveillance Testing' as well apparently, but it's not been defined what that actually is.

meeeeh · 10-04-2020 03:17PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

We are just touching on a core truth here. The official decision has already being made that elderly people will not be the priority and keeping as many out of hospital as possible will be key to freeing up space as they approach the peak.

Judging from a lot of impassioned cries for help from the care sector, the big thing is if your going to put us in that position at least give us the weapons to cope. Money, staff expertise, ppe, proper resources.

That's why they are feeling abandoned. Like a battalion being left behind by an army in retreat, but being given hardly any ammunition.

I think it's similar in Ireland and I know it is very much the same in Slovenia (despite spare beds in hospitals).They move only seriously ill with chance of survival to hospital, those who are not severely ill and those who are so weak there is no point prolonging their suffering are left in the homes. I haven't seen what policy in Ireland is but since huge delays in processing of tests you can be sure infected people are in nursing homes.

I accept there is huge pressure on nursing homes but a bit realism is also needed. If people infected with corona went to hospital you can guarantee corona is there no matter if they come back or not. Similarly people in nursing homes can be weak enough that putting on ventilators would be just torture. Yes people in homes should be tested and isolated but there are very good arguments to leave them where they are.

Of course you can't do that without proper ppe, medical help, staff training and checking and professional medical help.

Joe_ Public · 10-04-2020 03:18PM

devnull wrote: »

They're bringing in so called 'Surveillance Testing' as well apparently, but it's not been defined what that actually is.

Isnt that the "giant survey" of the population they're talking about? To see how many have had the virus. Which would be an antibody test so not sure how that would be applicable at the moment. Unless I've got that wrong.

Seth Brundle · 10-04-2020 03:25PM

French not taking any messing. I'm surprised that the UK aviation authority allowed it to take off to be honest.
French police turn back private jet of holidaymakers from UK
Ten flew into Marseille-Provence airport to be taken by helicopter to luxury Cannes villa

Water John · 10-04-2020 03:26PM

The UK were touting an antibody test two weeks ago but it proved not to be consistent TMK.

devnull · 10-04-2020 03:28PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Isnt that the "giant survey" of the population they're talking about? To see how many have had the virus. Which would be an antibody test so not sure how that would be applicable at the moment. Unless I've got that wrong.

They listed the following tests the other day
- NHS Swab testing
- Commercial Swab testing
- Surveillance testing
- Antibody testing

The fact they were listed separate makes me think they are different.
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10-04-2020 03:30PM

punisher5112 wrote: »

I'm not surprised at all that nursing homes are been hit, staff in many cases aren't adhering to the rules of keeping distance between them and others.
These in some cases are using the buses to get in and out and aren't taking any precautions at all from what I witness....

I live very close to a nursing home and at every shift change there are staff arriving by bus from Dun Laoghaire.

What is the alternative though?

meeeeh · 10-04-2020 03:32PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

French not taking any messing. I'm surprised that the UK aviation authority allowed it to take off to be honest.
French police turn back private jet of holidaymakers from UK
Ten flew into Marseille-Provence airport to be taken by helicopter to luxury Cannes villa

In fairness the Brits were probably just trying to get the morons out of the country. I don't know why gobsihite organising this didn't take everyone to his home country. It's not like Croatia is stuck for scenic sea locations.

Not to jump to conclusion but combining the age of girls and nationalities mentioned there is also good chance some were escorts.

Joe_ Public · 10-04-2020 03:35PM

meeeeh wrote: »

I think it's similar in Ireland and I know it is very much the same in Slovenia (despite spare beds in hospitals).They move only seriously ill with chance of survival to hospital, those who are not severely ill and those who are so weak there is no point prolonging their suffering are left in the homes. I haven't seen what policy in Ireland is but since huge delays in processing of tests you can be sure infected people are in nursing homes.

I accept there is huge pressure on nursing homes but a bit realism is also needed. If people infected with corona went to hospital you can guarantee corona is there no matter if they come back or not. Similarly people in nursing homes can be weak enough that putting on ventilators would be just torture. Yes people in homes should be tested and isolated but there are very good arguments to leave them where they are.

Of course you can't do that without proper ppe, medical help, staff training and checking and professional medical help.

Oh sure, i accept that. Again i repeat, i never suggested this was unique to UK and, after all, one of the primary purposes of a social care system is to keep as many out of hospital as possible.

Difference between uk and here and other places that i see, is the increased burden on care homes is not being followed with an increase of resources. People are going to die in care homes who might otherwise have lived if they'd got to a hospital and that is tough enough, but a lack of resources means a lot of them cant even die with dignity or loved ones around them because they cant spare ppe to relatives. The level of anger, frustration and helplessness isnt something i pick up here for example.

I haven't seen stories from Ireland suggesting nursing home providers are coming under big pressure to alleviate hospital admissions either. I comb a lot of Germany news and while they have lots of nursing home infections, i haven't read the same thing there. Not saying it isnt so, just i haven't come across reports or anecdotal evidence as in uk.

Joe_ Public · 10-04-2020 03:39PM

devnull wrote: »

They listed the following tests the other day
- NHS Swab testing
- Commercial Swab testing
- Surveillance testing
- Antibody testing

The fact they were listed separate makes me think they are different.
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From DHSC literature it would seem to be an antibody test of some kind, but other than that I'm not sure of its current status.

https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1246466795214684165?s=20

Seth Brundle · 10-04-2020 03:58PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

From DHSC literature it would seem to be an antibody test of some kind, but other than that I'm not sure of its current status.

https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1246466795214684165?s=20

So they're actually doing the tests (does the tweet about the third pillar not contradict this?)
Does anyone know how many tests have been completed?

Joe_ Public · 10-04-2020 03:59PM

Ok, think i can see the difference between the antibody and surveillance testing. The antibody tests need to be 100% reliable or very close to it but the surveillance tests dont need as much sensitivity because they're only designed to give them a figure. So they can be rolled out quicker. But i still dont think they could be part of the 100k target.

2pints · 10-04-2020 04:18PM

The Sun is shining, its a fine Easter bank holiday and the newspapers are full of reports of people packing out the parks, soaking up the sun and enjoying the beaches

Junkyard Tom · 10-04-2020 05:22PM

Can anyone predict what happens if we get out of this ahead of Britain and begin to ease restrictions on movement? Does the north follow suit or will Unionists wrap themselves in the flag and demand that the north remains in lockstep with Britain?

Will British people see Ireland as a nice getaway from from Britain, if it's still has restricted movement, and flood over here? Has the Government planned for any of this?

Timberrrrrrrr · 10-04-2020 05:33PM

2pints wrote: »

The Sun is shining, its a fine Easter bank holiday and the newspapers are full of reports of people packing out the parks, soaking up the sun and enjoying the beaches

Where?

Enzokk · 10-04-2020 05:34PM

Theological, I think you were just on Sky News now, stating the policies have always been made by following the science. Oh, that was Matt Hancock...

Apparently now travel restrictions because Italy and the US had apparently harsh travel rules and the virus is causing havoc in those countries. It's almost like they tried to shut the door once the horse had bolted already, who is going to tell the men in charge though?

The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

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