The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

Enzokk · 09-04-2020 08:30PM

theological wrote: »

There probably isn't because I suspect most Brits wish us well while there are a few people on here who seem to be unable to do this in return. This is a vicious virus that we need to stand together on rather than engaging in point scoring.

I happen to have an interest in seeing both countries succeed having grown up in one and living in another.

I only saw one poster referring to sides on here though. What freaking sides? It doesn't matter though, the UK government chose its side when it chose not to listen to the experts, or other EU countries or prepare for the worst by joining the EU procurement scheme. There is your sides really, which is what I suspect a lot of posters are amazed at and commenting on. You on the other hand would defend these decisions to the hilt I suspect.

Joe_ Public · 09-04-2020 08:31PM

I dont know if i would see anything there as being "great" news particularly. There are encouraging signs and that is good, but would need to see a continuing trend before getting hopes up too high. So let's hope for more downward graphs next few days.

If vallance is right about peak being at least 2 weeks away - april 17 had been mentioned, remember - then fact is we're looking at 20-25,000 fatalities minimum before end of month. That's going to be tough.

theological · 09-04-2020 08:32PM

Enzokk wrote: »

I only saw one poster referring to sides on here though. What freaking sides? It doesn't matter though, the UK government chose its side when it chose not to listen to the experts, or other EU countries or prepare for the worst by joining the EU procurement scheme. There is your sides really, which is what I suspect a lot of posters are amazed at and commenting on. You on the other hand would defend these decisions to the hilt I suspect.

Sides of an argument. I'm on an opposing side of the argument to you. I believe the UK Government have been striving to act in the best interests of the British people and other residents like myself. You don't.

That doesn't require acrimony.

Joe Public - if you can't see anything encouraging in these graphs I suggest an eye test could be in order.

Seth Brundle · 09-04-2020 08:34PM

theological wrote: »

Johnson is back on a regular ward so hopefully he'll be back in post soon.

I would have presumed that someone who needed an ICU bed would be unfit for work for several weeks, if not several months!

Joe_ Public · 09-04-2020 08:36PM

theological wrote: »

Joe Public - if you can't see anything encouraging in these graphs I suggest an eye test could be in order.

What part of "encouraging signs" is your reading comprehension struggling with?

theological · 09-04-2020 08:39PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I would have presumed that someone who needed an ICU bed would be unfit for work for several weeks, if not several months!

Hey I'm just glad that he's doing alright. Surely we can agree on this? Hopefully he can return in the next few weeks but if not another person this wretched virus hasn't ravaged.

Does everything have to be a point of contention?

Edit: another encouraging graph. Probably with more a pinch of salt because we don't really know the total number of cases. It is probably many many times greater.

brickster69 · 09-04-2020 08:42PM

Good thread. Glad i just found it

S.M.B. · 09-04-2020 08:48PM

There's some useful chat in this thread but some of the bickering is getting tedious at this stage.

robinph · 09-04-2020 08:49PM

theological wrote: »

I just saw the live feed on the Guardian as I say.

These graphs are encouraging!

Hospital beds look like they are flattening:

Critical care looks like it is flattening but if hospital beds are flattening this will feed through.

This will feed through to death figures in a few weeks also.

The measures are starting to bear fruit. This is great.

The spike in numbers in Wales is a concern. Timing would fit with being long enough after the Stereophonic gig, people visit their parents for Sunday lunch and now all the parents a in hospital.

There have been posts online today looking for trades to help with building another Nightingale hospital in Newport.

theological · 09-04-2020 08:51PM

robinph wrote: »

The spike in numbers in Wales is a concern. Timing would fit with being long enough after the Stereophonic gig, people visit their parents for Sunday lunch and now all the parents a in hospital.

There have been posts online today looking for trades to help with building another Nightingale hospital in Newport.

Yeah. I suspect Wales could be further behind. I think they're also preparing the Principality Stadium in Cardiff for hospital use also.

Overall it is a hugely encouraging picture though and I'm hopeful that the UK is going to make significant progress in the next few weeks.

Donald Trump · 09-04-2020 08:56PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I would have presumed that someone who needed an ICU bed would be unfit for work for several weeks, if not several months!

I'm sure he wasn't the best but it wouldn't be absurd to suggest that he might have been given special treatment and moved to an ICU early just in case, whereas your average pleb might be left on the trolley in the converted canteen for a few days more.

If the gobshite hadn't been going around shaking hands with patients he might not have risked depriving some other poor unfortunate of a needed ICU bed

Memnoch · 09-04-2020 08:58PM

theological wrote: »

There probably isn't because I suspect most Brits wish us well while there are a few people on here who seem to be unable to do this in return. This is a vicious virus that we need to stand together on rather than engaging in point scoring.

I happen to have an interest in seeing both countries succeed having grown up in one and living in another.

Attempting to paint critics of the behavior of this administration as somehow not wanting the UK to do well is disingenuous at best.

Three of my family are doctors in the United Kingdom, I very much wanted and want that country to do well.

But this administration has callously endangered their lives and I will insist that they be held to account. Contrary to your claimed preference for figures your support of the government seems to be simply an act of zealous faith.

There are only two figures that really matter. The number of tests, which is abysmally poor. And the number of deaths which is severely undercounted because of the poor testing and yet even at that number completely unacceptable for a country with the resources and status of the United Kingdom.

This government's decision making has been catastrophic for its citizens. Of course, every regime no matter how corrupt, how criminal, how ruthless or how murderous has always had its staunch defenders so the same should be expected here.

Memnoch · 09-04-2020 09:02PM

robinph wrote: »

The spike in numbers in Wales is a concern. Timing would fit with being long enough after the Stereophonic gig, people visit their parents for Sunday lunch and now all the parents a in hospital.

There have been posts online today looking for trades to help with building another Nightingale hospital in Newport.

Well, there have been reports that people have called the emergency services and been referred to the NHS website rather than having an ambulance sent to help them. Then there are reports of people being asked to sign DNR's before they can be admitted.

I suspect that the reason the health service does not seem to have been overwhelmed in the United Kingdom is because people are essentially being triaged without admission.

This would explain why the number of daily fatalities are similar to the numbers we are seeing in countries like Italy and Spain where the health service has completely collapsed.

Joe_ Public · 09-04-2020 09:04PM

Here's 15 people you wont see listed in today's official death statistics. And while it's encouraging to hear hospital admissions levelling off, shouldn't we be asking how much those figures are skewered by the fact they are now asking care homes to take patients instead of hospitals?

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-stay-indoors-councillors-plea-after-15-die-at-luton-care-home-11970906

threeball · 09-04-2020 09:17PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

I'm sure he wasn't the best but it wouldn't be absurd to suggest that he might have been given special treatment and moved to an ICU early just in case, whereas your average pleb might be left on the trolley in the converted canteen for a few days more.

If the gobshite hadn't been going around shaking hands with patients he might not have risked depriving some other poor unfortunate of a needed ICU bed

Sounds like the plebs aren't even getting in the hospital door never mind getting early admission to the ICU just incase.

Water John · 09-04-2020 09:30PM

Doctor was saying, each day in ICU, needs a week of convalescence. Johnson could be out of action for a month.

brickster69 · 09-04-2020 09:34PM

Looks like the left wing press are spreading more bollocks

https://twitter.com/RobertJenrick/status/1248341191738998787

Enzokk · 09-04-2020 09:49PM

brickster69 wrote: »

Looks like the left wing press are spreading more bollocks

https://twitter.com/RobertJenrick/status/1248341191738998787

Let's see, he advised people to stay at home and not visit their parents. He also wrote in an article,

In an article for the Mail on Sunday just over two weeks ago, Jenrick argued that rather than relatives travelling, local communities should help out. “While we create physical distance between ourselves, we must at the same time have closer social support for our neighbour,” he wrote.

And his parents has been receiving supplies from the local community as well,

The Guardian understands that the local community has been supporting Jenrick’s parents by delivering groceries in recent weeks. This was not denied, though the source said Jenrick had collected and delivered medication for his parents, too.

But he had to go and give them medication. I am sure they are very happy that their son who might have been in close attendance with not just Johnson but also Hancock and most likely others that are infected in the House of Commons came to drop off their groceries they have been receiving from the community and also their medication as well.

Enzokk · 09-04-2020 10:19PM

In other news, the German army is sending 60 mobile ventilators to the UK as they are desperately scrambling for equipment.

German army donates 60 ventilators as UK scrambles for equipment

Germany’s army is donating 60 mobile ventilators to the UK following a call for help as the NHS races to get hold of enough life-saving equipment in the runup to the expected peak of the UK’s Covid-19 pandemic in mid-April.

Officials have been racing to obtain ventilators internationally because UK manufacturers have not been able to produce enough in time.

A spokesperson for the German defence ministry confirmed to the Guardian a report in Der Spiegel, according to which the Bundeswehr would send 60 pieces of the life-saving equipment as soon as possible.

Highlighting the urgency of the British situation, the German ministry said it would not invoice the UK for the ventilators, which are made by two specialist German manufacturers, Dräger and Weinmann.

Donald Trump · 09-04-2020 10:25PM

Enzokk wrote: »

In other news, the German army is sending 60 mobile ventilators to the UK as they are desperately scrambling for equipment.

German army donates 60 ventilators as UK scrambles for equipment

Don't mention the war!!

In seriousness though, the EU countries should really be focusing on helping other EU countries first. It is supposed to be a union. The UK should be let look for help from its imaginary external trade deal buddies first

bob mcbob · 09-04-2020 11:01PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Here's 15 people you wont see listed in today's official death statistics. And while it's encouraging to hear hospital admissions levelling off, shouldn't we be asking how much those figures are skewered by the fact they are now asking care homes to take patients instead of hospitals?

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-stay-indoors-councillors-plea-after-15-die-at-luton-care-home-11970906

I have tried to keep out of the whole "who has done better UK or Ireland' bickering going on by some in here but I do take exception to this statement. I read the linked article to the one above and that is definitely not what it was saying. It was whether patients with Covid symptoms could be admitted to a care home without being tested negative.

While I think this is nuts, it is very different to your statement above.

Do you believe that every single person in a vulnerable situation should be admitted to hospital if they show mild Covid symptoms?

Joe_ Public · 09-04-2020 11:22PM

bob mcbob wrote: »

I have tried to keep out of the whole "who has done better UK or Ireland' bickering going on by some in here but I do take exception to this statement. I read the linked article to the one above and that is definitely not what it was saying. It was whether patients with Covid symptoms could be admitted to a care home without being tested negative.

While I think this is nuts, it is very different to your statement above.

Do you believe that every single person in a vulnerable situation should be admitted to hospital if they show mild Covid symptoms?

It's been a story for the past week and maybe more. There's a ton of stuff out there about the hell descending on care homes and government policy trying to keep it from blocking up hospitals, including but not confined to patients being discharged from hospitals back to residential homes even though they have tested positive. Policy is now to put pressure on care homes to take in patients.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52155359

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-sacrificing-the-elderly-care-homes-asked-to-take-covid-19-patients-11969661

bob mcbob · 09-04-2020 11:55PM

Joe_ Public wrote: »

It's been a story for the past week and maybe more. There's a ton of stuff out there about the hell descending on care homes and government policy trying to keep it from blocking up hospitals, including but not confined to patients being discharged from hospitals back to residential homes even though they have tested positive. Policy is now to put pressure on care homes to take in patients.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-52155359

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-sacrificing-the-elderly-care-homes-asked-to-take-covid-19-patients-11969661

Ok the first link was about old people in a care home told they would not be admitted to hospital if they contract Covid or only if they sign a DNR. Everyone understands the pressure on hospital beds at the moment and not just in the UK. The stories you see of multiple deaths in care homes in other countries means that they are following the same approach.

The second story was about - The health guidelines in England say: "Residents may also be admitted to a care home from a home setting. Some of these patients may have COVID-19 whether symptomatic or asymptomatic. All of these patients can be safely cared for in a care home if this guidance is followed."
This is a really difficult question and not just related to Covid - what do you do with vulnerable people with high needs who cannot be cared at home any more. Hospitals have traditionally been the dumping ground of last resort for them and the problem of bed blockers is huge in the NHS. With the current Covid crisis, the scope for dealing with them is just not there.

Enzokk · 10-04-2020 12:04AM

bob mcbob wrote: »

The second story was about - The health guidelines in England say: "Residents may also be admitted to a care home from a home setting. Some of these patients may have COVID-19 whether symptomatic or asymptomatic. All of these patients can be safely cared for in a care home if this guidance is followed."
This is a really difficult question and not just related to Covid - what do you do with vulnerable people with high needs who cannot be cared at home any more. Hospitals have traditionally been the dumping ground of last resort for them and the problem of bed blockers is huge in the NHS. With the current Covid crisis, the scope for dealing with them is just not there.

The problem I see here with the care home story, patients are seemingly being discharged and sent back to care homes even if they have not tested negative for Covid-19. So you have a situation where it is possible they will still have the virus and be able to spread it to others. The people they will get into contact with are the staff at the care homes, who will most likely be spreading the virus to others at the care home and those other residents may not be so lucky to survive.

There has been numerous stories of hospitals not having enough PPE and care homes will be included in this. This is reckless to do, the very least you do is ensure the staff is protected so they don't become vehicles for the virus that will kill others, or make sure the residents are cleared before they are sent back. Seemingly neither are being done and for some reason Cummings apparent words are ringing in my ears, "if some older people have to die, too bad."

Joe_ Public · 10-04-2020 12:27AM

bob mcbob wrote: »

Ok the first link was about old people in a care home told they would not be admitted to hospital if they contract Covid or only if they sign a DNR. Everyone understands the pressure on hospital beds at the moment and not just in the UK. The stories you see of multiple deaths in care homes in other countries means that they are following the same approach.

The second story was about - The health guidelines in England say: "Residents may also be admitted to a care home from a home setting. Some of these patients may have COVID-19 whether symptomatic or asymptomatic. All of these patients can be safely cared for in a care home if this guidance is followed."
This is a really difficult question and not just related to Covid - what do you do with vulnerable people with high needs who cannot be cared at home any more. Hospitals have traditionally been the dumping ground of last resort for them and the problem of bed blockers is huge in the NHS. With the current Covid crisis, the scope for dealing with them is just not there.

I dont think anyone said otherwise than these are difficult questions tbh. The actual original point i made was a query about hospital admissions and why they might be showing a decrease. Actively pursuing policies that might prevent a substantial block of the population from accessing from potential life saving treatment is certainly one way you could achieve that I'd say. Maybe owing to historic failures in looking after their healthcare system, this is sadly what they are reduced to, effectively giving no hope to 1,000s of elderly just so they can keep the system coping for the expected surge. It's effectively triage, as someone mentioned in a post above, so let's acknowledge it for what it is anyway.

I'm not going to pronounce on the morality of all this, so I'll just quote the man at the end of that bbc article:

"Sam Monaghan, chief executive of MHA, the UK's largest charity provider of care and accommodation for older people, has been in touch with a response to this story.

He said: "I am going to be frank, NHS staff are used to dealing with a high volume of end of life care, social care staff who develop close personal relationships with residents over months and years are not, to the same extent.

"As extraordinary as our colleagues across the UK are, they did not sign up to this but are doing their very best.

"They increasingly don't have the equivalent PPE to the NHS and we can't continue to accept that."

He added that care homes were "struggling to even offer families the PPE to allow them to be with their loved ones at the end, adding: "Surely as a society we can do better than this."

Joe_ Public · 10-04-2020 12:32AM

Enzokk wrote: »

The problem I see here with the care home story, patients are seemingly being discharged and sent back to care homes even if they have not tested negative for Covid-19. So you have a situation where it is possible they will still have the virus and be able to spread it to others. The people they will get into contact with are the staff at the care homes, who will most likely be spreading the virus to others at the care home and those other residents may not be so lucky to survive.

There has been numerous stories of hospitals not having enough PPE and care homes will be included in this. This is reckless to do, the very least you do is ensure the staff is protected so they don't become vehicles for the virus that will kill others, or make sure the residents are cleared before they are sent back. Seemingly neither are being done and for some reason Cummings apparent words are ringing in my ears, "if some older people have to die, too bad."

Patients have been sent back to care homes even after they have tested positive too.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/02/uk-care-home-bosses-threaten-quit-over-return-coronavirus-patients

Enzokk · 10-04-2020 08:47AM

I am left pondering today as well, we are asking questions on an Irish discussion board about the response and policies being followed by the UK government. But how do those who are supposed to hold the government to account do their job right now? We will not get the answers if the opposition MP's aren't given time to ask questions or the Select Committees have their hearings, so how is anyone okay with MP's not answering questions right now?

Also, usually in a crises MP's return back to parliament to formulate a response as the UK government, but it seems like now it is the opposite. MP's have been sent home and no scrutiny of the response to this crises is allowed to happen. That is...what is the word I am looking for to describe a leader acting without scrutiny? But it couldn't be as it would never happen in the UK, right?

Seth Brundle · 10-04-2020 08:49AM

theological wrote: »

Hey I'm just glad that he's doing alright. Surely we can agree on this? Hopefully he can return in the next few weeks but if not another person this wretched virus hasn't ravaged.

Does everything have to be a point of contention?

Nothing to do with it being a bone of contention.
The UK currently is leaderless as their PM is in hospital. This is likely to be the case for another month or so. All while there is a pandemic killing thousands of people and a recession about to hit the world.
But hey, you think everyone is out to have a fight with you :rolleyes:

devnull · 10-04-2020 09:37AM

robinph wrote: »

The spike in numbers in Wales is a concern. Timing would fit with being long enough after the Stereophonic gig, people visit their parents for Sunday lunch and now all the parents a in hospital.

There have been posts online today looking for trades to help with building another Nightingale hospital in Newport.

Yesterday's Welsh figures are under-reported as well, Public Health Wales said due to an issue with the reporting, it only includes 12 hours worth of data rather than 24.

Professor Moriarty · 10-04-2020 09:54AM

devnull wrote: »

Yesterday's Welsh figures are under-reported as well, Public Health Wales said due to an issue with the reporting, it only includes 12 hours worth of data rather than 24.

That's worrisome in itself. And UK under-reporting in general only exacerbates the point I'm about to make. Using Ireland to contrast and compare, there is a definitive and inexorable trend in deaths per million emerging:

March 31st: UK 27. Ireland 14. UK deaths greater by a factor of 1.9
April 5th: UK 78. Ireland 32. UK deaths greater by a factor of 2.4
April 9th: UK 140. Ireland 53. UK deaths greater by a factor of 2.6

The trend is obvious and begs a lot of questions given such a huge and growing disparity.

The UK response to Covid-19 [MOD WARNING 1ST POST]

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