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Is it just me or have SF vanished?

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Comments

  • #2702
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I have no SF specific agenda on this. I am in business, I am used to solving logistical problems.
    I don't as a rule begin a conversation by saying...'ah no..no that can't be done'.

    Times of crisis, you move mountains. Or you at least, look at ways of moving the mountain.

    https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/china/about-us/team-ireland-china/

    Logistics for pharma / medical devices is a lot more complicated. We deal with Chinese and Indian suppliers weekly and it's a nightmare at the best of times never mind in a pandemic.


  • #2703
    Sultan_of_Ping
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Sultan_of_Ping


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I have no SF specific agenda on this. I am in business, I am used to solving logistical problems.
    I don't as a rule begin a conversation by saying...'ah no..no that can't be done'.

    Times of crisis, you move mountains. Or you at least, look at ways of moving the mountain.

    https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/china/about-us/team-ireland-china/

    3 containers in 5 years from China, and now you are expert on global logistics :D:D:D:D

    So how do you "move mountains"? What ways are there to move mountains? As someone who has shpped a container from China once every 608 days, do share how you go about dealing with logistical issues.......


  • #2704
    Ballso
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 465 ✭✭Ballso


    jh79 wrote: »
    Logistics for pharma / medical devices is a lot more complicated. We deal with Chinese and Indian suppliers weekly and it's a nightmare at the best of times never mind in a pandemic.

    Sure Sinn Fein have a simple solution for everything. Solutions they've no experience of and likely will never have to implement.


  • #2705
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,041 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    jh79 wrote: »
    Sending a team to China in the current situation is hardly wise and what benefit is there to find out the PPE is faulty in China unless you know in advance that the faulty stock can be replaced.. Easier just to get them to replace the faulty PPE in the next order and ignore those scoring cheap political points out of the situation.

    We could just as easily have ended up like other countries with all of it useless.

    Again, the idea that there is 'nothing that can be done' is being promoted to save blushes. Sorry, that doesn't cut it.

    Maybe it was impossible, but that should never result in questions NOT being asked.


  • #2706
    aido79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭aido79


    Ballso wrote: »
    Sure Sinn Fein have a simple solution for everything. Solutions they've no experience of and likely will never have to implement.

    They are the equivalent of someone following you around all day telling you that are doing everything wrong without offering alternative ideas or even knowing how to do the task at hand. Eventually you'd either stop listening or tell them to fook off.


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  • #2707
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,041 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »
    3 containers in 5 years from China, and now you are expert on global logistics :D:D:D:D

    So how do you "move mountains"? What ways are there to move mountains? As someone who has shpped a container from China once every 608 days, do share how you go about dealing with logistical issues.......

    Oh get lost and find someone else to misrepresent Sultan.

    What was it...10 jets...were mobilised to go get this stuff, that was 'moving a mountain,. Are you telling me mobilising a team to inspect the shipment was an unmovable mountain? Bull****.


  • #2708
    blackwhite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,517 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I have no SF specific agenda on this. I am in business, I am used to solving logistical problems.
    I don't as a rule begin a conversation by saying...'ah no..no that can't be done'.

    Times of crisis, you move mountains. Or you at least, look at ways of moving the mountain.

    https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/china/about-us/team-ireland-china/


    For someone who repeatedly claims to be "in business" you've a habit of proposing ridiculously oversimplified solutions that won't work, without over doing a hint of critical analysis to how likely they are to succeed.

    Funnily enough, in any of the companies I've worked in over the years I've yet to see that sort of lazy, simplistic approach advocated or followed by anyone who's been remotely successful.



    It's almost like you love to spout about things you don't have the faintest idea about, and when challenged you'll shift goalposts, deflect, or revert to the classic trope of "just asking questions" (i.e. throwing sh*t in the hope something sticks)


  • #2709
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    We could just as easily have ended up like other countries with all of it useless.

    Again, the idea that there is 'nothing that can be done' is being promoted to save blushes. Sorry, that doesn't cut it.

    Maybe it was impossible, but that should never result in questions NOT being asked.

    I think its ok for the general public to question it as they wouldn't be familiar with issues encountered with Asian suppliers to the pharma industry but a political party should do a bit more research unless of course their aim is just cheap point scoring.


  • #2710
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,041 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    jh79 wrote: »
    Logistics for pharma / medical devices is a lot more complicated. We deal with Chinese and Indian suppliers weekly and it's a nightmare at the best of times never mind in a pandemic.

    I never said it wasn't complicated, nor that it is in any way similar to shipping a small quantity of containers.

    Inspecting goods before buying in that quantity is not an unknown though. We got some usable supplies and that is a good thing and well done etc, but it could just as easily have been a total disaster, as people have said about other countries.


  • #2711
    Sultan_of_Ping
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Sultan_of_Ping


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Changing the tune now?
    That is not what we were told when this came up first...we were told catergorically that there was 'no spare capacity' and anybody who said there was was a 'hurler on the ditch' 'shouting for attention'.

    No idea who that is targeted at.



    Who said anything about stopping the production of vital drugs?
    Spinning and re-spinning is just making you look silly now.
    It is clear that moves are underway to look at all these possibilities.

    Again, production runs at capacity - you change production volumes by changing capacity.....that can't be done overnight, it takes careful planning....spare capacity is what businesses call waste, because you have resources sitting idle....so most plants, most of the time are at capacity....or their production managers need to go find new jobs.....hard to believe you can't grasp the difference between capacity and production


    As for your other point, one line, one product - if we take a line and switch it to do something else then it can't do what it was set up for - that means someone is going to go without.

    Plus, define "vital drugs" - is low dose aspirin "vital" - what abut insulin? - *********? anipryl? cytarabine? - one of those I'd definitely not regard as "vital" but someone might - so who decides what's a "vital" drug?


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  • #2712
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,041 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blackwhite wrote: »
    For someone who repeatedly claims to be "in business" you've a habit of proposing ridiculously oversimplified solutions that won't work, without over doing a hint of critical analysis to how likely they are to succeed.

    Funnily enough, in any of the companies I've worked in over the years I've yet to see that sort of lazy, simplistic approach advocated or followed by anyone who's been remotely successful.



    It's almost like you love to spout about things you don't have the faintest idea about, and when challenged you'll shift goalposts, deflect, or revert to the classic trope of "just asking questions" (i.e. throwing sh*t in the hope something sticks)

    How many 'successful businesses' would place an order of that scale, with a known unreliable, quality wise, source and not do some due diligence before accepting the order? And what business management would not face criticism from owners if they did?

    I don't know of a single one.


  • #2713
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I never said it wasn't complicated, nor that it is in any way similar to shipping a small quantity of containers.

    Inspecting goods before buying in that quantity is not an unknown though. We got some usable supplies and that is a good thing and well done etc, but it could just as easily have been a total disaster, as people have said about other countries.

    Pharma companies use PPE all day everyday. Do you really think they send an inspection team over for every order?


  • #2714
    Sultan_of_Ping
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Sultan_of_Ping


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Oh get lost and find someone else to misrepresent Sultan.

    What was it...10 jets...were mobilised to go get this stuff, that was 'moving a mountain,. Are you telling me mobilising a team to inspect the shipment was an unmovable mountain? Bull****.

    Sorry, did you not say you brought in 3 containers in 5 years?

    Easy enough to send a team - but again, how do you get them off the plane?

    and do you do your checks on the tarmac as the stuff is being loaded, or have them travel to the factories to do the checks at dispatch?

    Or would you, as some clients occasionally do, look to put inspectors on the line?

    Would you audit the PPE manufacturers to approve them? If so, how often?

    Or would you rely on some third-party certification and if so, which scheme?


  • #2715
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,041 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »
    Again, production runs at capacity - you change production volumes by changing capacity.....that can't be done overnight, it takes careful planning....spare capacity is what businesses call waste, because you have resources sitting idle....so most plants, most of the time are at capacity....or their production managers need to go find new jobs.....hard to believe you can't grasp the difference between capacity and production

    Again... the shifting and spinning. WHO said anything about 'overnight'
    As for your other point, one line, one product - if we take a line and switch it to do something else then it can't do what it was set up for - that means someone is going to go without.

    Plus, define "vital drugs" - is low dose aspirin "vital" - what abut insulin? - *********? anipryl? cytarabine? - one of those I'd definitely not regard as "vital" but someone might - so who decides what's a "vital" drug?

    You STILL have to point out who said anything about stopping production of vital drugs.

    The Industry, the HSE and the IDA are all looking at this. We were told vociferously that it is a waste of time and that anyone who suggested it was hurling from the ditch and looking for attention.


  • #2716
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    How many 'successful businesses' would place an order of that scale, with a known unreliable, quality wise, source and not do some due diligence before accepting the order? And what business management would not face criticism from owners if they did?

    I don't know of a single one.

    What type of due diligence should they have done? Sending a team to China during a pandemic that originated in China is obviously a bad idea.


  • #2717
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,041 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    jh79 wrote: »
    Pharma companies use PPE all day everyday. Do you really think they send an inspection team over for every order?

    I don't know. But I would if I was ordering 13 years supply (according to Leo) in one go.


  • #2718
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    . Are you telling me mobilising a team to inspect the shipment was an unmovable mountain? Bull****.

    China wouldn't let anyone off the planes,they have a 2 week quarantine...


  • #2719
    smurgen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »
    Sorry, but where in that final article you linked does it say Harris and/or the HSE bought PPE rom Alibaba?

    Hahahaha man take a chill pill that was a joke. Although in the age of trump etc I suppose I should be more careful with my language.


  • #2720
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I don't know. But I would if I was ordering 13 years supply (according to Leo) in one go.

    Its an emergency and we cant really afford to be picky can we.


  • #2721
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I don't know. But I would if I was ordering 13 years supply (according to Leo) in one go.

    Our company has banned international travel unless there is an exceptional business need.

    Now, is going over to China to inspect an order that could be inspected on delivery an exceptional business need given that there is no evidence that the supplier could even replace the faulty stock at source?


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  • #2722
    Sultan_of_Ping
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Sultan_of_Ping


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Again... the shifting and spinning. WHO said anything about 'overnight'



    You STILL have to point out who said anything about stopping production of vital drugs.

    The Industry, the HSE and the IDA are all looking at this. We were told vociferously that it is a waste of time and that anyone who suggested it was hurling from the ditch and looking for attention.

    Ok, then you want to go down the semantic route that's fine - changing production volumes is easy - you can probably generate some change in hours/days - bringing extra capacity online, even in an atmosphere of regulatory forebearance, takes weeks.

    And stopping production of certain drugs, devices etc is axiomatic in your proposals - facilities switching to produce reagents or testing kits are not producing something else, production is being displaced, which means someone has to go without.

    And you still no notion of what a "vital drug" is or how to identify one.


  • #2723
    aido79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭aido79


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I don't know. But I would if I was ordering 13 years supply (according to Leo) in one go.

    What sort of ppe would you advise frontline staff to use during the 2 week delay between no ppe and the delivery from China?


  • #2724
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,041 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    jh79 wrote: »
    What type of due diligence should they have done? Sending a team to China during a pandemic that originated in China is obviously a bad idea.

    We have people there already, clearly versed in local business. Did they have a role?
    I mean, it wasn't as if spotting the problems with the gear was a specialised skill. A simple photo of the problems with the equipment on Twitter showed every man woman and child what the issue was with it.

    https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/china/about-us/team-ireland-china/


  • #2725
    Sultan_of_Ping
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Sultan_of_Ping


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I don't know. But I would if I was ordering 13 years supply (according to Leo) in one go.

    Never heard of the old adage "you can't inspect in quality" - best you could do is visual inspections while there and so what? Conformity markings are easy enough to counterfeit.

    And wihtout a factory / site visit how would you know what to sample, what attribute to focus on, or even if you were getting a representative sample......


    .......or would you inspect every, single item? And if you wouldn't what would you say is a represntative sample?


  • #2726
    tikkahunter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭tikkahunter


    jh79 wrote: »
    Pharma companies use PPE all day everyday. Do you really think they send an inspection team over for every order?
    We are supplied vials from the best manufacture of vials in the world , same with stoppers and caps - even being the top manufactures we have ran into issues with one of them at some stage and the batch was delayed. Even the top manufactures make mistakes but you buy from them without inspection ,these defects just show up later on in production. Like all companies you take them at their word - its no different weather your buying PPE or cups for the canteen.


  • #2727
    Sultan_of_Ping
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Sultan_of_Ping


    aido79 wrote: »
    What sort of ppe would you advise frontline staff to use during the 2 week delay between no ppe and the delivery from China?

    Darren O'Rourke posted the answer to that - here's what he retweeted.....

    https://twitter.com/Constance8News/status/1246186931643449349?s=20

    .....masks made from bandanas!! - it would be funny it wasn't so risky.


  • #2728
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,041 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »
    Never heard of the old adage "you can't inspect in quality" - best you could do is visual inspections while there and so what? Conformity markings are easy enough to counterfeit.

    And wihtout a factory / site visit how would you know what to sample, what attribute to focus on, or even if you were getting a representative sample......


    .......or would you inspect every, single item? And if you wouldn't what would you say is a represntative sample?

    Ok...the FG mantra today seems to be...just give up. Put roadblocks in the way evry step of the way. THERE IS NO BETTER WAY, just the FG way. Don't question, don't seek solutions and don't criticise.

    Fair enough, we get it.


  • #2729
    aido79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭aido79


    Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »
    Darren O'Rourke posted the answer to that - here's what he retweeted.....

    https://twitter.com/Constance8News/status/1246186931643449349?s=20

    .....masks made from bandanas!! - it would be funny it wasn't so risky.

    What's even worse is the fact that he is a medical scientist at St James hospital

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darren_O'Rourke

    It's very worrying that someone from a medical science background would spread this.


  • #2730
    aido79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,374 ✭✭✭aido79


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Ok...the FG mantra today seems to be...just give up. Put roadblocks in the way evry step of the way. THERE IS NO BETTER WAY, just the FG way. Don't question, don't seek solutions and don't criticise.

    Fair enough, we get it.

    This is the SF mantra


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  • #2731
    Sultan_of_Ping
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 436 ✭✭Sultan_of_Ping


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Ok...the FG mantra today seems to be...just give up. Put roadblocks in the way evry step of the way. THERE IS NO BETTER WAY, just the FG way. Don't question, don't seek solutions and don't criticise.

    Fair enough, we get it.

    Not at all, the issue is to deal with the crisis, not make it worse by adding confounding factors.

    If someone came to us and said "make reagent" or "make test kits" - we'd say 'no' (after we'd finished laughing).

    If someone goes to Lilly and says "make reagent" - Lilly will say "no problem, just let us get the 'recipe' then we're away"

    If that loon Tully goes into Abbott in Cootehill and says "I hear Abbott employ thousands in Ireland and you make Covid-19 test kits, maybe you could make some here" they might say "sure, no problem - can SF tell us how to convert an infant formula line to make reagent......and in the mean time what are the rest of the world going to do when we take 15% of the world's production capacity for skimmed milk for use in infant formula off line?"


This discussion has been closed.
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