Is it just me or have SF vanished?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have no SF specific agenda on this. I am in business, I am used to solving logistical problems.
I don't as a rule begin a conversation by saying...'ah no..no that can't be done'.

Times of crisis, you move mountains. Or you at least, look at ways of moving the mountain.

https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/china/about-us/team-ireland-china/

Logistics for pharma / medical devices is a lot more complicated. We deal with Chinese and Indian suppliers weekly and it's a nightmare at the best of times never mind in a pandemic.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have no SF specific agenda on this. I am in business, I am used to solving logistical problems.
I don't as a rule begin a conversation by saying...'ah no..no that can't be done'.

Times of crisis, you move mountains. Or you at least, look at ways of moving the mountain.

https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/china/about-us/team-ireland-china/

3 containers in 5 years from China, and now you are expert on global logistics

:D:D:D

So how do you "move mountains"? What ways are there to move mountains? As someone who has shpped a container from China once every 608 days, do share how you go about dealing with logistical issues.......

Ballso

jh79 wrote: »

Logistics for pharma / medical devices is a lot more complicated. We deal with Chinese and Indian suppliers weekly and it's a nightmare at the best of times never mind in a pandemic.

Sure Sinn Fein have a simple solution for everything. Solutions they've no experience of and likely will never have to implement.

jh79 wrote: »

Sending a team to China in the current situation is hardly wise and what benefit is there to find out the PPE is faulty in China unless you know in advance that the faulty stock can be replaced.. Easier just to get them to replace the faulty PPE in the next order and ignore those scoring cheap political points out of the situation.

We could just as easily have ended up like other countries with all of it useless.

Again, the idea that there is 'nothing that can be done' is being promoted to save blushes. Sorry, that doesn't cut it.

Maybe it was impossible, but that should never result in questions NOT being asked.

Ballso wrote: »

Sure Sinn Fein have a simple solution for everything. Solutions they've no experience of and likely will never have to implement.

They are the equivalent of someone following you around all day telling you that are doing everything wrong without offering alternative ideas or even knowing how to do the task at hand. Eventually you'd either stop listening or tell them to fook off.

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

3 containers in 5 years from China, and now you are expert on global logistics :D:D:D

So how do you "move mountains"? What ways are there to move mountains? As someone who has shpped a container from China once every 608 days, do share how you go about dealing with logistical issues.......

Oh get lost and find someone else to misrepresent Sultan.

What was it...10 jets...were mobilised to go get this stuff, that was 'moving a mountain,. Are you telling me mobilising a team to inspect the shipment was an unmovable mountain? Bull****.

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have no SF specific agenda on this. I am in business, I am used to solving logistical problems.
I don't as a rule begin a conversation by saying...'ah no..no that can't be done'.

Times of crisis, you move mountains. Or you at least, look at ways of moving the mountain.

https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/china/about-us/team-ireland-china/

For someone who repeatedly claims to be "in business" you've a habit of proposing ridiculously oversimplified solutions that won't work, without over doing a hint of critical analysis to how likely they are to succeed.

Funnily enough, in any of the companies I've worked in over the years I've yet to see that sort of lazy, simplistic approach advocated or followed by anyone who's been remotely successful.

It's almost like you love to spout about things you don't have the faintest idea about, and when challenged you'll shift goalposts, deflect, or revert to the classic trope of "just asking questions" (i.e. throwing sh*t in the hope something sticks)

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We could just as easily have ended up like other countries with all of it useless.

Again, the idea that there is 'nothing that can be done' is being promoted to save blushes. Sorry, that doesn't cut it.

Maybe it was impossible, but that should never result in questions NOT being asked.

I think its ok for the general public to question it as they wouldn't be familiar with issues encountered with Asian suppliers to the pharma industry but a political party should do a bit more research unless of course their aim is just cheap point scoring.

jh79 wrote: »

Logistics for pharma / medical devices is a lot more complicated. We deal with Chinese and Indian suppliers weekly and it's a nightmare at the best of times never mind in a pandemic.

I never said it wasn't complicated, nor that it is in any way similar to shipping a small quantity of containers.

Inspecting goods before buying in that quantity is not an unknown though. We got some usable supplies and that is a good thing and well done etc, but it could just as easily have been a total disaster, as people have said about other countries.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Changing the tune now?
That is not what we were told when this came up first...we were told catergorically that there was 'no spare capacity' and anybody who said there was was a 'hurler on the ditch' 'shouting for attention'.

No idea who that is targeted at.

Who said anything about stopping the production of vital drugs?
Spinning and re-spinning is just making you look silly now.
It is clear that moves are underway to look at all these possibilities.

Again, production runs at capacity - you change production volumes by changing capacity.....that can't be done overnight, it takes careful planning....spare capacity is what businesses call waste, because you have resources sitting idle....so most plants, most of the time are at capacity....or their production managers need to go find new jobs.....hard to believe you can't grasp the difference between capacity and production

As for your other point, one line, one product - if we take a line and switch it to do something else then it can't do what it was set up for - that means someone is going to go without.

Plus, define "vital drugs" - is low dose aspirin "vital" - what abut insulin? - *********? anipryl? cytarabine? - one of those I'd definitely not regard as "vital" but someone might - so who decides what's a "vital" drug?

blackwhite wrote: »

For someone who repeatedly claims to be "in business" you've a habit of proposing ridiculously oversimplified solutions that won't work, without over doing a hint of critical analysis to how likely they are to succeed.

Funnily enough, in any of the companies I've worked in over the years I've yet to see that sort of lazy, simplistic approach advocated or followed by anyone who's been remotely successful.

It's almost like you love to spout about things you don't have the faintest idea about, and when challenged you'll shift goalposts, deflect, or revert to the classic trope of "just asking questions" (i.e. throwing sh*t in the hope something sticks)

How many 'successful businesses' would place an order of that scale, with a known unreliable, quality wise, source and not do some due diligence before accepting the order? And what business management would not face criticism from owners if they did?

I don't know of a single one.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I never said it wasn't complicated, nor that it is in any way similar to shipping a small quantity of containers.

Inspecting goods before buying in that quantity is not an unknown though. We got some usable supplies and that is a good thing and well done etc, but it could just as easily have been a total disaster, as people have said about other countries.

Pharma companies use PPE all day everyday. Do you really think they send an inspection team over for every order?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Oh get lost and find someone else to misrepresent Sultan.

What was it...10 jets...were mobilised to go get this stuff, that was 'moving a mountain,. Are you telling me mobilising a team to inspect the shipment was an unmovable mountain? Bull****.

Sorry, did you not say you brought in 3 containers in 5 years?

Easy enough to send a team - but again, how do you get them off the plane?

and do you do your checks on the tarmac as the stuff is being loaded, or have them travel to the factories to do the checks at dispatch?

Or would you, as some clients occasionally do, look to put inspectors on the line?

Would you audit the PPE manufacturers to approve them? If so, how often?

Or would you rely on some third-party certification and if so, which scheme?

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Again, production runs at capacity - you change production volumes by changing capacity.....that can't be done overnight, it takes careful planning....spare capacity is what businesses call waste, because you have resources sitting idle....so most plants, most of the time are at capacity....or their production managers need to go find new jobs.....hard to believe you can't grasp the difference between capacity and production

Again... the shifting and spinning. WHO said anything about 'overnight'

As for your other point, one line, one product - if we take a line and switch it to do something else then it can't do what it was set up for - that means someone is going to go without.

Plus, define "vital drugs" - is low dose aspirin "vital" - what abut insulin? - *********? anipryl? cytarabine? - one of those I'd definitely not regard as "vital" but someone might - so who decides what's a "vital" drug?

You STILL have to point out who said anything about stopping production of vital drugs.

The Industry, the HSE and the IDA are all looking at this. We were told vociferously that it is a waste of time and that anyone who suggested it was hurling from the ditch and looking for attention.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How many 'successful businesses' would place an order of that scale, with a known unreliable, quality wise, source and not do some due diligence before accepting the order? And what business management would not face criticism from owners if they did?

I don't know of a single one.

What type of due diligence should they have done? Sending a team to China during a pandemic that originated in China is obviously a bad idea.

jh79 wrote: »

Pharma companies use PPE all day everyday. Do you really think they send an inspection team over for every order?

I don't know. But I would if I was ordering 13 years supply (according to Leo) in one go.

Mortelaro

FrancieBrady wrote: »

. Are you telling me mobilising a team to inspect the shipment was an unmovable mountain? Bull****.

China wouldn't let anyone off the planes,they have a 2 week quarantine...

smurgen

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Sorry, but where in that final article you linked does it say Harris and/or the HSE bought PPE rom Alibaba?

Hahahaha man take a chill pill that was a joke. Although in the age of trump etc I suppose I should be more careful with my language.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't know. But I would if I was ordering 13 years supply (according to Leo) in one go.

Its an emergency and we cant really afford to be picky can we.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't know. But I would if I was ordering 13 years supply (according to Leo) in one go.

Our company has banned international travel unless there is an exceptional business need.

Now, is going over to China to inspect an order that could be inspected on delivery an exceptional business need given that there is no evidence that the supplier could even replace the faulty stock at source?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Again... the shifting and spinning. WHO said anything about 'overnight'

You STILL have to point out who said anything about stopping production of vital drugs.

The Industry, the HSE and the IDA are all looking at this. We were told vociferously that it is a waste of time and that anyone who suggested it was hurling from the ditch and looking for attention.

Ok, then you want to go down the semantic route that's fine - changing production volumes is easy - you can probably generate some change in hours/days - bringing extra capacity online, even in an atmosphere of regulatory forebearance, takes weeks.

And stopping production of certain drugs, devices etc is axiomatic in your proposals - facilities switching to produce reagents or testing kits are not producing something else, production is being displaced, which means someone has to go without.

And you still no notion of what a "vital drug" is or how to identify one.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't know. But I would if I was ordering 13 years supply (according to Leo) in one go.

What sort of ppe would you advise frontline staff to use during the 2 week delay between no ppe and the delivery from China?

jh79 wrote: »

What type of due diligence should they have done? Sending a team to China during a pandemic that originated in China is obviously a bad idea.

We have people there already, clearly versed in local business. Did they have a role?
I mean, it wasn't as if spotting the problems with the gear was a specialised skill. A simple photo of the problems with the equipment on Twitter showed every man woman and child what the issue was with it.

https://www.dfa.ie/irish-embassy/china/about-us/team-ireland-china/

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't know. But I would if I was ordering 13 years supply (according to Leo) in one go.

Never heard of the old adage "you can't inspect in quality" - best you could do is visual inspections while there and so what? Conformity markings are easy enough to counterfeit.

And wihtout a factory / site visit how would you know what to sample, what attribute to focus on, or even if you were getting a representative sample......

.......or would you inspect every, single item? And if you wouldn't what would you say is a represntative sample?

tikkahunter

jh79 wrote: »

Pharma companies use PPE all day everyday. Do you really think they send an inspection team over for every order?

We are supplied vials from the best manufacture of vials in the world , same with stoppers and caps - even being the top manufactures we have ran into issues with one of them at some stage and the batch was delayed. Even the top manufactures make mistakes but you buy from them without inspection ,these defects just show up later on in production. Like all companies you take them at their word - its no different weather your buying PPE or cups for the canteen.

aido79 wrote: »

What sort of ppe would you advise frontline staff to use during the 2 week delay between no ppe and the delivery from China?

Darren O'Rourke posted the answer to that - here's what he retweeted.....

https://twitter.com/Constance8News/status/1246186931643449349?s=20

.....masks made from bandanas!! - it would be funny it wasn't so risky.

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Never heard of the old adage "you can't inspect in quality" - best you could do is visual inspections while there and so what? Conformity markings are easy enough to counterfeit.

And wihtout a factory / site visit how would you know what to sample, what attribute to focus on, or even if you were getting a representative sample......

.......or would you inspect every, single item? And if you wouldn't what would you say is a represntative sample?

Ok...the FG mantra today seems to be...just give up. Put roadblocks in the way evry step of the way. THERE IS NO BETTER WAY, just the FG way. Don't question, don't seek solutions and don't criticise.

Fair enough, we get it.

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Darren O'Rourke posted the answer to that - here's what he retweeted.....

https://twitter.com/Constance8News/status/1246186931643449349?s=20

.....masks made from bandanas!! - it would be funny it wasn't so risky.

What's even worse is the fact that he is a medical scientist at St James hospital

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darren_O'Rourke

It's very worrying that someone from a medical science background would spread this.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ok...the FG mantra today seems to be...just give up. Put roadblocks in the way evry step of the way. THERE IS NO BETTER WAY, just the FG way. Don't question, don't seek solutions and don't criticise.

Fair enough, we get it.

This is the SF mantra