Off Topic Thread 4.0

aloooof · 11-03-2020 12:19PM

I think Italy has a Go Fund Me page setup to help. Does anyone know if something like this has been setup in Ireland? It could really help; I remember seeing stats before about how our contributions to charity were among the highest per head in Europe. I know I'd certainly contribute what I could.

Obviously the government can't be seen to be calling for this. I think it needs to come from someone high profile enough to try drive it.

irishbucsfan · 11-03-2020 12:20PM

Zzippy wrote: »

Who's going to staff them???

Retired staff will be recalled as well as staff who are free from other areas being scaled down

11-03-2020 01:10PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Not sure if people heard this, but Nadine Dorries; junior health minister has tested positive. But what's worse is the stupid woman went to a reception in 10 Downing street while symptomatic and then held a clinic the following day. Before eventually seeking medical help and getting tested.

The UK couldn't have picked a worse time to elect the government they currently have. They've ejected the most competent people from the party and have the likes of Dorries in important roles out of loyalty. She said the NI border issue was a hoax to wreck Brexit so that's the calibre of person in the no. 2 spot in their health ministry.

Zzippy · 11-03-2020 01:30PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Whoever is least sick...

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Retired staff will be recalled as well as staff who are free from other areas being scaled down

prawnsambo wrote: »

By cancelling elective surgeries, you free up staff and beds.

We have a staffing crisis already. Every ward in UHG is understaffed and relying heavily on agency staff. I know staff will be reassigned, and retrained, I know of one senior nurse who worked ICU many years ago being told she will be back there soon, for instance, but I genuinely don't think that will be half enough. And if they close schools, a lot of medical staff with no alternative childcare arrangements will not be able to go to work. Not to mention those that get sick themselves. We have 250 ICU beds in the country, at any time 220 of those are taken up with other emergencies - that's 25% of the EU average of ICU beds per head of population. I fear the lack of investment in infrastructure and staff going back years is a decision we are going to regret hugely in a few months time.

aloooof · 11-03-2020 01:38PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I would hope our lower population density, the fact that we're an Island and the advance warning of just how bad this is (Italy) will help our infection curve look more like South Korea than Milan.

The worrying thing is, this was reported just now on RTE.

South Korea reported a jump in new coronavirus cases, reversing 11 days of slowing infections, as authorities tested hundreds of staff at a Seoul call centre where the disease broke out this week.

Another 242 new cases were reported, compared with 35 a day earlier, bringing the total to 7,755 in Asia's worst outbreak outside mainland China, the Korea Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (KCDC) said.

The official death toll rose by four to 63.

aloooof · 11-03-2020 01:40PM

Zzippy wrote: »

We have a staffing crisis already. Every ward in UHG is understaffed and relying heavily on agency staff. I know staff will be reassigned, and retrained, I know of one senior nurse who worked ICU many years ago being told she will be back there soon, for instance, but I genuinely don't think that will be half enough. And if they close schools, a lot of medical staff with no alternative childcare arrangements will not be able to go to work. Not to mention those that get sick themselves. We have 250 ICU beds in the country, at any time 220 of those are taken up with other emergencies - that's 25% of the EU average of ICU beds per head of population. I fear the lack of investment in infrastructure and staff going back years is a decision we are going to regret hugely in a few months time.

The graph here is pretty damning on the number of hospital beds in the country from 2000-2017:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/557287/hospital-beds-in-ireland/

OldRio · 11-03-2020 01:50PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Whoever is least sick...

I would hope our lower population density, the fact that we're an Island and the advance warning of just how bad this is (Italy) will help our infection curve look more like South Korea than Milan.

We're a pretty compliant population, we dealt with 2008 financial crises better than most countries and our reaction to foot and mouth was pretty thorough.

This government despite recent polling has managed a crises reasonably well before and I take some solace in the current Taoiseach being a doctor.

I'm happy with how we've reacted so far, we can't burn the economy and shut everything down as paying for the level of care the population is going to need isn't free and we have to take a medium to long term view of recovery whilst dealing with the immediate crises. In addition to that closing schools has a knock on effect of impacting healthcare workers and nurses in particular.

I'm not an expert, I don't know if we could be doing more but I'm hopeful we've done just enough to stave off the worst.

If what is happening in Italy is replicated world wide it's going to be a very bad year however. America in particular looks like it's headed for a complete catastrophe and with the underlying political tension it could get quite ugly.

So so much I utterly disagree with, I don't know where to start. In fact it's best I leave it because of the politics thingy.
Health is more important than cash.

Zzippy · 11-03-2020 02:03PM

aloooof wrote: »

The graph here is pretty damning on the number of hospital beds in the country from 2000-2017:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/557287/hospital-beds-in-ireland/

Our population has gone from 3.7m to 4.9m in that time!

Buer · 11-03-2020 02:29PM

OldRio wrote: »

So so much I utterly disagree with, I don't know where to start. In fact it's best I leave it because of the politics thingy.
Health is more important than cash.

I agree that health is more important than cash. But it's worth noting that economic downturns result in an increase in health issues as populations cannot take sufficient care of themselves and health services endure cutbacks due to it.

It's a balancing act but there has to be a very considered approach to the entire situation. No aspect operates in isolation.

Podge_irl · 11-03-2020 02:47PM

aloooof wrote: »

The graph here is pretty damning on the number of hospital beds in the country from 2000-2017:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/557287/hospital-beds-in-ireland/

How much of that I wonder is from shutting down regional hospitals though. They would probably be of limited use anyway. Not entirely sure I trust the graph either given the precipitous drop in one year.

OldRio · 11-03-2020 02:57PM

Buer wrote: »

I agree that health is more important than cash. But it's worth noting that economic downturns result in an increase in health issues as populations cannot take sufficient care of themselves and health services endure cutbacks due to it.

It's a balancing act but there has to be a very considered approach to the entire situation. No aspect operates in isolation.

And the health service has been adequately financed in a time of economic prosperity? I think not.
These are unprecedented times. The dithering and dallying has everything to do with Economics and nothing to do with healthcare.

Dave_The_Sheep · 11-03-2020 03:04PM

I thought the problem with providing money for healthcare is that most of it does into the black hole of middle management that is the HSE?

Buer · 11-03-2020 03:10PM

OldRio wrote: »

And the health service has been adequately financed in a time of economic prosperity? I think not.
These are unprecedented times. The dithering and dallying has everything to do with Economics and nothing to do with healthcare.

Economics and healthcare are intrinsically linked. You cannot say it's all to do with one and not the other. Any major decision on the economy will impact healthcare and vice versa.

Whether you think it is/was funded adequately or not isn't the point. If there is an economic crash, you can be sure that the funding will be further cut and public health will suffer significantly due to both lack of services and the negative impact the economic situation will have on lifestyles. For context, cardiovascular deaths increased by 17.2% during the recession. That's a massive jump.

I fully back whatever measures are taken to contain the virus. Human life should be the priority. But it cannot be viewed in isolation and the government are acting upon the advice of the HSE who will have to consider all aspects.

OldRio · 11-03-2020 03:33PM

Buer wrote: »

Economics and healthcare are intrinsically linked. You cannot say it's all to do with one and not the other. Any major decision on the economy will impact healthcare and vice versa.

Whether you think it is/was funded adequately or not isn't the point. If there is an economic crash, you can be sure that the funding will be further cut and public health will suffer significantly due to both lack of services and the negative impact the economic situation will have on lifestyles. For context, cardiovascular deaths increased by 17.2% during the recession. That's a massive jump.

I fully back whatever measures are taken to contain the virus. Human life should be the priority. But it cannot be viewed in isolation and the government are acting upon the advice of the HSE who will have to consider all aspects.

Sorry but I can't agree.

Zzippy · 11-03-2020 03:40PM

Good interview on the Pat Kenny show this morning with Prof Luke O'Neill on the virus, new drug treatments that are being tried (and some working) and the race for a vaccine (very promising).

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-the-pat-kenny-show and click on "The Race To Find A Coronavirus Vaccine Is On" to listen.

Buer · 11-03-2020 03:41PM

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

I thought the problem with providing money for healthcare is that most of it does into the black hole of middle management that is the HSE?

It's certainly one of them. I've spent the past year working directly with a nationwide public organisation. I've worked with public bodies in the past but never as closely for a sustained period.

I'm absolutely astounded by their resourcing. We have about 12-15 people working on our side of the table. They have closer to 50 all in management positions. No person departs without being replaced. Any change to protocol or process is met with extremely vocal resistance.

If the HSE operates in a similar manner, I can't see how any government can implement significant change. The HSE are the biggest employer in the state, to the best of my knowledge. It would be like getting water to flow uphill.

Zzippy · 11-03-2020 03:56PM

Buer wrote: »

I'm absolutely astounded by their resourcing. We have about 12-15 people working on our side of the table. They have closer to 50 all in management positions. No person departs without being replaced. Any change to protocol or process is met with extremely vocal resistance.

I work in the public sector, albeit in a more streamlined organisation. I definitely recognise the resistance to change - that is institutional. Younger staff tend to be more open to change, or recognise that change is inevitable perhaps. But another part of it is a perception that consultants can recommend change just to justify their contract - or to rubberstamp a decision that management have already made, but need cover for. Change in itself is not always for the best, staff also have ideas about what would work best and if they are not listened to in that process, you can't be surprised that they resist it.

Dave_The_Sheep · 11-03-2020 04:35PM

Buer wrote: »

If the HSE operates in a similar manner, I can't see how any government can implement significant change. The HSE are the biggest employer in the state, to the best of my knowledge. It would be like getting water to flow uphill.

I think this is where I was really going with the question. It's pointless pumping masses more money into it, because it won't change a thing.

Burning it to the ground and starting again might work, but that will/can never happen.

aloooof · 11-03-2020 05:00PM

Zzippy wrote: »

Good interview on the Pat Kenny show this morning with Prof Luke O'Neill on the virus, new drug treatments that are being tried (and some working) and the race for a vaccine (very promising).

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-the-pat-kenny-show and click on "The Race To Find A Coronavirus Vaccine Is On" to listen.

That's as reassuring an interview as I've heard since it started in Ireland.

Also, Italy's active cases have tapered as soon as they introduced lockdown. It works. Obviously that can't be sustained indefinitely, but if we can get the timing right, it may not be as bad as I first imagined.

Buer · 11-03-2020 05:00PM

Zzippy wrote: »

I work in the public sector, albeit in a more streamlined organisation. I definitely recognise the resistance to change - that is institutional. Younger staff tend to be more open to change, or recognise that change is inevitable perhaps. But another part of it is a perception that consultants can recommend change just to justify their contract - or to rubberstamp a decision that management have already made, but need cover for. Change in itself is not always for the best, staff also have ideas about what would work best and if they are not listened to in that process, you can't be surprised that they resist it.

The organisation I work with has several entities and they actively distrust one another. The core entity/head office who I deal with is completely reasonable and good to work with. But they're terrified of the others as they can bring the organisation to a stand still.

New employees become instituionalised very quickly. You have new people coming in, surrounded by colleagues who have been there years and they fall into line very quickly to the point where I see some of the younger staff actively being more difficult to deal with.

Consultants can absolutely recommend change for the sake of it undoubtedly but the inefficiencies and refusal to change I see first hand every week are mind boggling even if the refusal to act/change negatively impacts themselves and their colleagues.

Former Former · 11-03-2020 05:01PM

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

I thought the problem with providing money for healthcare is that most of it does into the black hole of middle management that is the HSE?

I think that's a bit of a myth tbh. I'm sure there's a lot of wastage but it's a pretty low proportion of expenditure.

pickarooney · 11-03-2020 05:37PM

aloooof wrote: »

That's as reassuring an interview as I've heard since it started in Ireland.

Also, Italy's active cases have tapered as soon as they introduced lockdown. It works. Obviously that can't be sustained indefinitely, but if we can get the timing right, it may not be as bad as I first imagined.

Did Italy not just have its biggest jump in cases today?

Stheno · 11-03-2020 05:39PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Did Italy not just have its biggest jump in cases today?

Usually not announced until 5pm our time

11-03-2020 05:46PM

Italy is on the brink and they are probably a few weeks away from their peak infection. If current measures don't get this under control I fear for the stability of the country.

As for here - town is dead today to be honest and half my clients have large numbers of people working from home. All my place are working from home all of next week and most likely the week after. Time to start reducing risk.

aloooof · 11-03-2020 05:46PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Did Italy not just have its biggest jump in cases today?

Not sure. According to this, yesterday's numbers were beginning to taper. (It looks like it was the first day they began to taper since they got the virus). Obviously need to see that trend to continue over a longer period to have confidence in it. Lets hope that's exactly what we'll see.

aloooof · 11-03-2020 05:53PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Italy is on the brink and they are probably a few weeks away from their peak infection. If current measures don't get this under control I fear for the stability of the country.

As for here - town is dead today to be honest and half my clients have large numbers of people working from home. All my place are working from home all of next week and most likely the week after. Time to start reducing risk.

Curious what you mean by that Venjur? Closing schools, etc.?

(As an aside, I'm glad the conversation on here is pretty measured. Can't go near the coronavirus thread itself).

Buer · 11-03-2020 05:58PM

aloooof wrote: »

Curious what you mean by that Venjur? Closing schools, etc.?

(As an aside, I'm glad the conversation on here is pretty measured. Can't go near the coronavirus thread itself).

I haven't looked at the specific thread but I have had a look across social media generally out of interest. There is undoubtedly a section of society that are thriving with the outbreak and are actively enjoying it under the guise of acting concerned. You can genuinely sense the disappointment when numbers aren't increasing on a given day. It's somewhat ghoulish and surreal, to be honest.

Zzippy · 11-03-2020 06:07PM

aloooof wrote: »

That's as reassuring an interview as I've heard since it started in Ireland.

Also, Italy's active cases have tapered as soon as they introduced lockdown. It works. Obviously that can't be sustained indefinitely, but if we can get the timing right, it may not be as bad as I first imagined.

It sounds reassuring, but he focussed on the positive news about treatments and vaccines, and didn't offer any opinions on the immediate situation and our capacity to deal with it. He's a biochemist, a great science communicator (l had lectures from him when he was a young postdoc and he's still got that passion that brings subjects to life) but he does get immersed in the science and maybe his enthusiasm for the research that's been done gives a false sense of security. A vaccine is still probably a year away from widespread availability. I have no idea what stocks of the drugs that have proven effectice are available, and whether the regulatory bodies will even permit their use off-label. China took a very aggressive approach, testing 80 different drugs on sick patients - you would never be allowed to do that here.

Stheno · 11-03-2020 06:18PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Did Italy not just have its biggest jump in cases today?

Yes just announced

+2313 new cases and 196 deaths

Think they have had close to 600 deaths in three days

aloooof · 11-03-2020 06:19PM

Zzippy wrote: »

It sounds reassuring, but he focussed on the positive news about treatments and vaccines, and didn't offer any opinions on the immediate situation and our capacity to deal with it. He's a biochemist, a great science communicator (l had lectures from him when he was a young postdoc and he's still got that passion that brings subjects to life) but he does get immersed in the science and maybe his enthusiasm for the research that's been done gives a false sense of security. A vaccine is still probably a year away from widespread availability. I have no idea what stocks of the drugs that have proven effectice are available, and whether the regulatory bodies will even permit their use off-label. China took a very aggressive approach, testing 80 different drugs on sick patients - you would never be allowed to do that here.

Ya, the tone of the interview does seem incongruous with everything else we're hearing, alright.

Off Topic Thread 4.0

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