How are people not good with money?

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Don’t know what the LOL is about.....

Junior sales person will walk in door in my office on 40k+ basic with a 55/45 sales plan so 72k if they hit target and they are right out of college

Do software development and your pushing close to 100k starting.....

Maybe five years, graduates starting with a Dublin city centre software firm started on 23k.

beejee wrote: »

I know a couple of people in the general area of IT. Essentially, they got it to the field because of all the "big salaries".

Now that theyve been in it a few years they say it's a very small handful of people that make anything near 100k, never mind "easily more than 100k".

I would say the problem there is "general area of IT". Anyone and everyone can "work in IT". A porter in a hospital works in the medical field, but is hardly comparable to a consultant surgeon.

As a whole, mainstream professional IT roles such as Software/DB/Systems/Cloud Engineer/Architect etc, automated testing or IT Management are good careers that pay decent money.

However, the below is not true...

kenmm wrote: »

Anyone with a few years experience in IT in Dublin right now that isn't on at least 110 equivalent is doing it wrong.

Practically nobody "a few years experience in IT" is on a six figure salary. For most, they hit it around the 10-15 year mark. Some will get there earlier; a tiny few will get there after 5 years.

Of course, once you hit a certain salary, there is a lot more to a job than money, and many choose to earn 80K in an enjoyable role than 120K in a horrible one.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Best you tell these software developers they should have a look around.....

Companies in Ireland are going around the World and paying for people to move to Ireland so they will work in software dev labs. Moving their families, paying for visas etc

Senior software dev people would be well over 100k

Even look on irishjobs and Limerick for software dev is 50-60k. Sligo is 35-45k. Only job in Dublin with wages listed is 65-75k

Go to the big American companies and you can add 20-30k

Anyone working for 35-40k as a software developer is getting the pi** taken out of them by their employer

Firstly, most of the "hiring abroad" is that they can hire for far lower wages. Sure, the cost of the visa and a plane ticket is nothing when they can pay them far less than an Irish employee and treat them like dirt. Once the person has completed their 2 years' residency, they start asking for a Irish salary and are told to f-off and the company goes out to try and recruit more offshore. All the consultancy firms do this as well as some of the large IT players. Not only does it flood the country with developers (many with poor/mediocre skills), but it is a terrible, unethical practice. Rule of thumb is - never work for a company where the majority (or even a large minority) of the staff are not Irish.

Despite all the talk, there is no shortage of "IT people" in Ireland. There is, however, a massive shortage of companies that know how to attract, manage and retain IT staff.

As per your own research in to Irishjobs, none are even close to 100K. That is not to say they don't exist - they do!, but are not the standard. In terms of "american" companies, if you are referring to Facebook/Google/Amazon, then yes, these guys pay a great salary. But that is why they stand out amongst the hundreds of other employers.

Boards (or at least this thread) must have a higher percentage of people in IT reading and replying on it than say lower paid retail and hospitality sectors etc based on the salary numbers at the start of careers being bandied around here.

kenmm wrote: »

I'd appreciate not being called out as a liar on a public forum, but I don't care that much tbh! I know for fact what people get paid and it is madness! 400 a day isn't a particularly good day rate in some fields and you don't need nearly as much experience as one would think..

I apologise for the insinuation, but I didn't directly mean YOU are a liar.

Mores that I've heard these tales multiple times. One time, in particular, I was in a room with a lot of people in IT, some students also.

Heard the usual "massive money, I heard of a bloke..." sort of thing. I interjected and asked all of them do they KNOW anyone making 100 and 200 grand, or was it all just hearsay.

Not one of them, a decent cross section I think, actually knew anyone in IT making a ton of money. All second and third hand rumours, basically.

I'm sceptical of this unicorn until I actually see it myself, or someone I believe can verify it.

Someone above gave a more believable rundown, that after 15+ years experience and yardda yardda, yeah it can be true.

I think it does a serious disservice to people, especially those considering going to college, to paint "easy money". Not YOU, just in general.

I've come to the conclusion that social
media in all it's forms in not good for your self esteem. I now feel like a dirty smelly and poor, political dissident degenerate after reading the threads on here.

kenmm wrote: »

You would think that, wouldn't you?

Yes I would. Being an IT contractor myself and having over 10 years experience in the industry including hiring people.

dotsman wrote: »

Despite all the talk, there is no shortage of "IT people" in Ireland. There is, however, a massive shortage of companies that know how to attract, manage and retain IT staff.

Absolutely this.

I've heard it said before and I think it's also true: There's no shortage of skilled IT staff in Ireland. There is a shortage of skilled IT staff willing to work for the wages on offer.

I.e. not all positions offer good money. I was quite taken back by some offers I was approached with on LinkedIn the last while. 15-20k less than what I would consider the current range. Not all, but a decent amount. But I think you put it better.

As a matter of interest, what do you think is the biggest problem with attracting and retaining staff?

Elessar wrote: »

Absolutely this.

I've heard it said before and I think it's also true: There's no shortage of skilled IT staff in Ireland. There is a shortage of skilled IT staff willing to work for the wages on offer.

I.e. not all positions offer good money. I was quite taken back by some offers I was approached with on LinkedIn the last while. 15-20k less than what I would consider the current range. Not all, but a decent amount. But I think you put it better.

As a matter of interest, what do you think is the biggest problem with attracting and retaining staff?

All three are linked, attracting the right people and managing them well will make it very easy to retain people; likewise, managing and retaining good people will attract more, making recruitment easy.


In terms of what to improve:

Attracting:

• Avoid recruitment companies where possible. Similar to Estate Agents, in the 21st century, they, more often than not, end up adding layers of miscommunication and miss-selling, add tremendous cost and cause frustration to both sides.
• Look to your existing staff - they are your best recruiters. They will have worked with some great people over the years, and head-hunt from there when you can. If they can't convince those ex-colleagues to join your company - why not? That is surely some of the best feedback you can get as to what you need to do attract talent.
• Don't offer low salaries/benefits - you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. You also pay a lot more for your recruitment as you have to spend a long time sifting through a huge pile of "monkeys" to fin the "least-monkey".
• When writing a job description, be honest and try to describe the actual job, not trying to use as many generic "terms" as possible. The more BS on the job description, the more BS you can expect from those applying.
• Don't list a dozen different tech skills the person needs to have. Have a minimum of 1 or 2 core techs (Java/.NET etc) that are crucial. Every minimum requirement you add drastically reduces the pool of candidates, often excluding people who would be brilliant and leaving you with the bluffers and odd person who might specifically match that tech-stack, but is far from the best candidate. You can list everything else as a nice to have, but training will be offered along with the ability to learn on-the-job.
• Offer training on any gaps. Seriously. Make that clear on the job spec. The amount of talented people who have bypassed a job description because they fear they mightn't have enough experience/skills to live up to expectations is unreal. Meanwhile, the bluffers and egomaniacs have no problem applying (and subsequently hurting your org).
• Avoid code tests. They don't work. If you do want to have a test and a score, use a simple aptitude test etc to rate their intelligence/ability to problem solve/ ability to learn tech.
• State the salary range on the job offer, and be honest about it. If you are not stating it, the assumption is that it is low. Or, if you do actually end up offering the required salary, you are not stating it because it is far higher than existing staff, and will cause problems down the line (no pay increase as employee is already at the top of the pay scale, tension from other team members when they discover employee is being paid more etc).
• Offer flexible hours/work from home etc.
• CVs, Interviews/Tests all offer a very simple insight into how well the person will work out (and often misleading). A Strong endorsement from people who have worked with them well that you know (and trust) is far better.

Managing (some already covered above, but)

• Ensure frequent training and support.
• Ensure people are matched to project/roles that suit their abilities and excites them
• Remove any politicians, egomaniacs, a$$holes, bullies etc from the team immediately. It is crazy how one negative team-member can destroy the atmosphere for the whole team, especially if they are in a position of authority.
• Help poor performers, but also move them out if it is clear they will never be able to contribute in a meaningful way as they will, over time, also hurt the team.
• Don't expect people to work late/weekends regularly.
• Be as, if not more, flexible with your people than you expect from them. If people want to work from home, or different hours, accommodate as much as is feasible.
• Reward well and reward regularly. Even small, simple things like a random day off/half day, night out, or going out for lunch can go along way to keeping morale high.
• Promote a strong team-spirit. From buddies/mentors, to regular social nights, to ensuring quieter team-members feel included to just having a relaxed, fun environment.
• Do regular performance review/appraisal, but not the BS HR one that most companies go with. Keep it simple, unique and focused for the person on how they can realistically grow/improve in their role.
• Likewise, performance is not some SMART Objective that you wrote at the start of the year and forgot about. Performance should be simple - how valuable is this person to the team? How much do they contribute? How much do they help others? How much do they help the atmosphere on the team? How much to they help make the team. The real question is - if building a team to start a new project tomorrow, is this person someone you would absolutely need, very much want, happy to have, give or take, or refuse to have on the team. Because that is your real "ratings" just there.

Retaining

• If you are doing the above, then it should be very simple to retain!
• When reviewing pay/bonuses, don't give the absolute minimum you can get away with. Saving the company 2 grand right now, could cost you a skilled, experienced team-member in 6 months time, but you are now faced with the massive blow to the project, and hit with recruitment costs, and the new person likely costing as much, if not more.
• Ensure that people have clear career path to grow - where do they want to be in 1/3/5-years's time etc. Sometimes, the company simply doesn't have any roles in that area- and fine, be honest in the communications, and some people will always leave because they want to try something different. But if those roles are something org has or wants to have, have a clear path that this person grow in to them
• Unhappy staff breed unhappy staff. Don't have unhappy staff. While some people are natural complainers/miserable, most causes of unhappiness are down to bad management. Instead of denying or vaguely promising to address the issue next year etc, address it immediately.

The above is just a few quick things I would start exploring if I was the CEO/MD/Head of HR etc.

maybe people are shyte with money and spend like lunatics get into debt because they believe that someone is going to call them straight out of college, or next month, and offer them 100,000 euro to turn up for a day job.

I know this is borderline a bump but boy did that thread go Off Topic.

Eoin Magee has a new book out based on his show. Anyonoe read it, any decent tips that the average saver may have missed?