Why are people still docking dogs' tails?

SnazzyPig · 20-02-2020 02:02AM

khalessi wrote: »

Old English Sheepdogs look beautiful with their tails

Their tails also make fine paint brushes.

(Joke)

Bannasidhe · 20-02-2020 02:28AM

SnazzyPig wrote: »

You answered the question yourself.

Then the exception is there - but docking has to be done by a vet or vet nurse and there are conditions that have to be met.

One of my rescue jacks was born after 2014. She was found as a starving stray pup with an infected stump of a tail.
I seriously doubt any docking was carried out by either a vet or vet nurse.

Most docking is cosmetic. There is absolutely no need for it.

Junkyard Tom · 20-02-2020 03:47AM

Redneck Reject71 wrote: »

I don't understand why you would try to derail a thread about docking dog's tails with a religious theme?

I was making the point that humans are dumb creatures with weird practices. I didn't mean to derail the thread. Would you like me to delete my posts?

Grab All Association · 20-02-2020 04:03AM

Shocking that we are 3 pages in and no one has brought up Pavee Point. Boards.ie is becoming more generation snowflake as the week goes by

Xertz · 20-02-2020 04:17AM

I remember reading a scientific study in the alleged benefits of this and they really didn’t stack up at all. It seems to be a practice that’s based on nothing but a load of nonsense that became accepted as justifications for doing it.

It seems to be effectively banned here since 2014.

Dogs’ tails are essential parts of their communication system and part of how the express a wide range of emotions both towards humans and other dogs. There’s evidence they may be less able to communicate essential states to other dogs, causing accidental conflict too.

There was evidence that it can cause balance issues as the tail is used for counter balancing body movements.

It can also cause issues with back damage due to changes in the physiology of how their backs work due to loss of tail and due to abnormal shaking of their whole body to mimic communication.

There’s also further evidence to show it can cause long term pain issues as the tail is highly enervated and has a structure similar to a spine.

So basically it’s unscientific nonsense. Plenty of quackery passes for science and will have people claiming it’s great due to their firmly held, but entirely illogical beliefs.

Some practices in the US like debarking dogs and declawing cats are utterly vile. I encountered a debarked dog in the US and quite honestly it was one of the saddest things I’ve ever seen.
There are even some residential developments the the US that specify this barbarism in the lease and the fact that vets would do such a thing in my view should have them struck off.

jaxxx · 20-02-2020 04:19AM

Redneck Reject71 wrote: »

Because that is the market the puppy farmers target unfortunately.

I can't remember where, but it was only a few months back I was reading an article regarding puppy farms, and genuine breeders as well. The long and the short of it was, there should be no breeding as long as there are animals in adoption centres. Not really to do with puppy farms, but I'm of the opinion people should always look to adopt first rather than get puppies/kittens/etc. Yes we all love how cute and adorable young animals are, but why bring more dogs/cats into the world when there are already hundreds throughout the country without homes.

Always Tired · 20-02-2020 04:37AM

SnazzyPig wrote: »

You answered the question yourself.

But those arent the reasons for the majority of docking, it's usually rich pr*cks who are worried about some vase being knocked over.

Worst i ever seen was when I worked at a vets that did boarding in a really well to do area in the US. Dogs with rich AF owners leaving them for weeks on end in loud, cramped kennels nearly half the year was bad enough but one of my favorite dogs was this beautiful Irish Setter poodle mix (looked like a Labradoodle) who was always super happy, loved to jump and play, and had a big waggy tail, until one day the owners gave the order to hack it off and the vet made a complete hames of it.

It was cut about halfway through the tail, not docked into a nub (probably cuz he was past the age you usually would do it), and poor Wrigley was so sad, no more jumping or wagging his tail. It took ages to heal and didnt heal right, the end became like a big knot so instead of just a normal tail the dog now had a still pretty long tail shaped like a club, which I imagine was probably even more likely to knock things over.

When I first saw him the vet who did it was in the room and I was taking him out of the kennel for a walk and I said 'Oh my god, Wrigley, what did they do to your tail, you poor baby?' And she was like 'He's fine." And I told her straight out, 'No you f*ckin butchered it.' Which I got in trouble for because according to the vet nurses this made her cry.

Oranage2 · 20-02-2020 05:03AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It's been illegal since 2014 for anyone except a vet or vet nurse to dock a dog's tail but there are exceptions where a pointer/spaniel/terrier is to be used in lawful hunting/pest control

Although there has been a few prosecutions as with all animal welfare laws the enforcement is patchy to say the least.

Guards aren't interested tbh so it's up to the ISPCA to bring prosecutions.
Their inspector network is limited and tbh even where it exists isn't always what it should be.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/si/125/made/en/print

Really if a dog less than 6 years old had a docked tail questions should be asked and if necessary very public prosecutions take place with large fines imposed and soon people would get the message.

But that's not happening.

I'm not sure that would work, if I adopted a stray dog with a docked tail then I'd have every Tom, Dick and Harry harassing me when I walk then dog. That or the pound wouldn't rehome dogs with docked tails and put them down

Tilikum17 · 20-02-2020 06:44AM

jaxxx wrote: »

I can't remember where, but it was only a few months back I was reading an article regarding puppy farms, and genuine breeders as well. The long and the short of it was, there should be no breeding as long as there are animals in adoption centres. Not really to do with puppy farms, but I'm of the opinion people should always look to adopt first rather than get puppies/kittens/etc. Yes we all love how cute and adorable young animals are, but why bring more dogs/cats into the world when there are already hundreds throughout the country without homes.

unfortunately people today are more interested in how the dogs looks, than things like temperate and finding out about the health issues that breed will have later in life.

Graces7 · 20-02-2020 07:30AM

Redneck Reject71 wrote: »

My first job as a teenager was in a slaughterhouse, and to this day I still don't eat pork or beef.

Or lamb

Graces7 · 20-02-2020 07:35AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I have 5 rescues (4 jacks and a jack x corgi) and all their tails are docked
The jack x corgi had just the end of his tail docked leaving him with 3/4s of what he should have, all the jack were just left with stumps. :mad:

I used to have a jack and her tail wasn't docked, watching her use it as a rudder when she was swimming was a joy to behold - especially when she'd catch sight of me and start wagging it so end up going in circles.

Her tail was so expressive. She would even flip you off with it.

My JRT/Bassett cross had three tail speeds. Slow, fast and ecstatic.... Side to side, up and down and in fast circles....

Bannasidhe · 20-02-2020 11:03AM

Oranage2 wrote: »

I'm not sure that would work, if I adopted a stray dog with a docked tail then I'd have every Tom, Dick and Harry harassing me when I walk then dog. That or the pound wouldn't rehome dogs with docked tails and put them down

I didn't suggest every Tom, Dick and Harry take action.
I said the proper authorities should.
And if a person adopted a dog with a docked tail it would be a simple matter to note on the adoption papers that the tail had been docked. That would satisfy the proper authorities.

It always amazes me why we Irish are so good at finding reasons for why things - like enforcing the law - can't be done but are so apparently unable to find ways is can be done.

As for Tom, Dick and Harry for 16 years I had them commenting on how I should have docked my beautiful jack's tail. And for 16 years I told them to mind their own business.

B0jangles · 20-02-2020 11:31AM

I recently ran into a friend who I knew kept bully breed type dogs, I think he breeds them too. Anyway, he'd a beautiful, friendly 5 month old pup with him - big smiley face, wagging tail and ears that had been cut down to horrible little points

Honestly I was so shocked I didn't know what to say. I patted the pup and walked away as soon as I could.

How could any decent person mutilate a puppy's body like that?

charlietheminxx · 20-02-2020 11:36AM

B0jangles wrote: »

I recently ran into a friend who I knew kept bully breed type dogs, I think he breeds them too. Anyway, he'd a beautiful, friendly 5 month old pup with him - big smiley face, wagging tail and ears that had been cut down to horrible little points

Honestly I was so shocked I didn't know what to say. I patted the pup and walked away as soon as I could.

How could any decent person mutilate a puppy's body like that?

That's actually illegal throughout Europe, it is a disgusting thing to do to a dog. If you know someone doing this habitually, I'd report him :mad:

Tazzimus · 20-02-2020 11:55AM

Our Doberman has a tail and floppy ears, and while she looks a bit goofy, I much prefer it.
She's so much more expressive with her ears and tail, having them docked would remove all of that.
I have gotten a few bruises from getting whacked in the leg from her tail though, thing is like a horse whip :pac:

There are valid reasons for docking the tail, if it's been damaged etc, but people absolutely should not be doing it this long after it's been made illegal.
I've seen plenty of terrier types that have had tight bands stuck to their tales so it stops blood flow to the tail so it can be docked, horrible process.

LirW · 20-02-2020 12:02PM

I have a pure-bred Australian Shepherd from a line of show dogs. My family was close to the breeder, she was reputable and all and had many of her dogs competing in shows. Her wan was a nutjob though, the aesthetic of the dog came over almost anything.
Aussies would be docked in America just about anywhere and this is the preferred show standard
Obviously docking isn't allowed for shows so breeders found a way around it. Because it's not allowed in Europe they started declaring pups with "natural short tails" as in, they're bred that way. This is perfectly fine for shows and it does indeed exist in Corgis for example. But the breeder told me, in reality, many Aussie breeders import from the US where 90% of all bobs are docked and natural ones are rather rare. So if pups are sold to Europe, they're docked and declared as natural bobs.
Generally there is a blind eye turned on it.

She'd only keep pups for shows that are born with a perfectly straight tail. Ear-taping is also quite common.
The world of dig shows is pretty disgusting tbh.

irish_goat · 20-02-2020 12:02PM

When I'm out with the dogs and we meet another dog with a docked tail I've taken to just straight up asking the the owner "what happened to their tail?".

Your Face · 20-02-2020 12:04PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Why are people still eating pigs which never see the light of day?

Because bacon.

BattleCorp · 20-02-2020 12:19PM

BuboBubo wrote: »

I had a beautiful rescue dog with a docked tail, a Rottweiler. Poor thing must have been in agony. Rotties have lovely tails.

I know I'll get abuse for this but anyway.............. my Dad (now deceased) used to dock pups tails. He was involved in hunting and certain breeds of dogs get their tails docked. It prevents them getting tail injuries later in their life.

Docking tails is done when the dogs are pups, and having witnessed it being done, doesn't cause them a mad amount of discomfort. I suppose it's a bit like getting a baby circumcised. The pups would feel a bit of pain momentarily but wouldn't be in agony. They'd be back playing with you in a minute or two.

BattleCorp · 20-02-2020 12:24PM

B0jangles wrote: »

I recently ran into a friend who I knew kept bully breed type dogs, I think he breeds them too. Anyway, he'd a beautiful, friendly 5 month old pup with him - big smiley face, wagging tail and ears that had been cut down to horrible little points

Any time I see someone with a bulldog breed's ears cut, I think dog fighting. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Antares35 · 20-02-2020 12:27PM

It's like everything to do with animal welfare in this country. Protective legislation is brought in but never enforced. I know someone who keeps their dog outside on a 6 foot chain 24/7, with access only to a concrete kennel and a pot of water. When I called a well known animal charity for advice on the matter I was told that it is unlikely the dog would be seized following inspection once he has "room to move" and can access his shelter and bowl.

I worked as a volunteer several years ago for an animal welfare charity aimed at those on low incomes. Often these "people on low incomes" would present with a box of 7 or 8 pups to avail of cheap vaccinations, all with their tails docked. They swore they "knew nothing about it" as if they had been born that way. More likely they had them docked at home then vaccinated on the cheap so they could turn a 400 euro profit selling them.

Antares35 · 20-02-2020 12:32PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

I know I'll get abuse for this but anyway.............. my Dad (now deceased) used to dock pups tails. He was involved in hunting and certain breeds of dogs get their tails docked. It prevents them getting tail injuries later in their life.

Docking tails is done when the dogs are pups, and having witnessed it being done, doesn't cause them a mad amount of discomfort. I suppose it's a bit like getting a baby circumcised. The pups would feel a bit of pain momentarily but wouldn't be in agony. They'd be back playing with you in a minute or two.

You don't know that neither of these things cause pain. Just because something is small or won't recall the event in years to come does not mean he/she is immune from pain. Animals have evolved not to show pain, since it weakens their position in the wild - an injured/ sick animal is easy prey. This is why a domestic pet will often mask pain and sometimes seek out quiet spaces in which to pass away.

BanditLuke · 20-02-2020 12:37PM

irish_goat wrote: »

When I'm out with the dogs and we meet another dog with a docked tail I've taken to just straight up asking the the owner "what happened to their tail?".

Yeah that's all well and good but take my little fella for instance he's a rescue dog and his tail was docked when we got him. Iv'e had several people give me odd looks and twice we've had comments about his tail from others once in the dog run in Marley park who told me i was cruel for docking his tail. They didn't even give me the leeway to explain. Not everything in black and white.

BattleCorp · 20-02-2020 12:40PM

Antares35 wrote: »

You don't know that neither of these things cause pain. Just because something is small or won't recall the event in years to come does not mean he/she is immune from pain. Animals have evolved not to show pain, since it weakens their position in the wild - an injured/ sick animal is easy prey. This is why a domestic pet will often mask pain and sometimes seek out quiet spaces in which to pass away.

I never said it doesn't cause pain. Let me be clear. Pups do feel pain when their tails are being docked.

But the way people are talking, you'd think they were in agony for years after the procedure. I've seen pups get their tails docked, and then carry on as normal a few minutes later. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not in favour of docking dogs tails when it can be avoided by the way so don't take my posts as being pro-docking. I'm just saying that the procedure doesn't seem as barbaric as people are making out.

Antares35 · 20-02-2020 12:41PM

BanditLuke wrote: »

Yeah that's all well and good but take my little fella for instance he's a rescue dog and his tail was docked when we got him. Iv'e had several people give me odd looks and twice we've had comments about his tail from others once in the dog run in Marley park who told me i was cruel for docking his tail. They didn't even give me the leeway to explain. Not everything in black and white.

I have a rescue who's tail was docked (before I found her obviously). I've never had any negative comments or looks from anyone. But, to be honest, even if I had I would probably welcome them because it would at least be indicative that people give a sh*t and are calling others out on illegal behaviour. The fact that in almost a decade I have never been questioned about her lack of tail says a lot about our attitude to docking.

I love my little bean and I wouldn't be without her. She is a happy little thing but I do feel a pang of sadness for her when she is excited and she wags her little stump. If I knew the moron who maimed her I'd probably be tempted to maim them myself!

Antares35 · 20-02-2020 12:44PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

I never said it doesn't cause pain. Let me be clear. Pups do feel pain when their tails are being docked.

But the way people are talking, you'd think they were in agony for years after the procedure. I've seen pups get their tails docked, and then carry on as normal a few minutes later. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not in favour of docking dogs tails when it can be avoided by the way so don't take my posts as being pro-docking. I'm just saying that the procedure doesn't seem as barbaric as people are making out.

Fair enough, but this isn't how it comes across to me from a reading of the thread. With the exception of such recollections where the docking has gone horribly wrong of course

irish_goat · 20-02-2020 12:56PM

BanditLuke wrote: »

Yeah that's all well and good but take my little fella for instance he's a rescue dog and his tail was docked when we got him. Iv'e had several people give me odd looks and twice we've had comments about his tail from others once in the dog run in Marley park who told me i was cruel for docking his tail. They didn't even give me the leeway to explain. Not everything in black and white.

No I'm giving people the leeway to explain, I'm well aware of rescue dogs having docked tails and also that there are the odd medical cases which necessitate docking. It's the pricks who pull out the "it's normal for that breed" or "it looks better" reasons which get short shrift.

wakka12 · 20-02-2020 01:15PM

Yeh the cocker spaniel we adopted came docked. Always thought it was oddly unnecessary, she wiggles her bum like a corgie when shes excited now because she has no tail which is quite cute though.

Oranage2 · 20-02-2020 01:31PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I didn't suggest every Tom, Dick and Harry take action.
I said the proper authorities should.
And if a person adopted a dog with a docked tail it would be a simple matter to note on the adoption papers that the tail had been docked. That would satisfy the proper authorities.

It always amazes me why we Irish are so good at finding reasons for why things - like enforcing the law - can't be done but are so apparently unable to find ways is can be done.

As for Tom, Dick and Harry for 16 years I had them commenting on how I should have docked my beautiful jack's tail. And for 16 years I told them to mind their own business.

Well as already mentioned every busy body Tom dick and Harry will harass people, so you're basically saying just put every dog down that has a docked tail to stop people doing it.

As for the authorities, I can imagine it now at the Garda station 'Tell that young woman alone with a child during the break-in to wait, there's a dog in the park with a docked tail'.

All great ideas....

Graces7 · 20-02-2020 01:44PM

I had a US visitor a while ago who was boasting about how her uncle declawed their cats for them. She was lucky the laws of hospitality curbed my response. Imagine having your nails surgically removed. Happened to my big toe once and it was excruciating as it healed.

Oh but our furniture they say...……….

Why are people still docking dogs' tails?

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