What have we come to

Eric Cartman · 19-02-2020 08:17PM

Bowie wrote: »

The reality that home ownership, the only security and family asset many could previously hope to work towards, is getting further out of reach is saddening.

tell every woman to stop working, tell 3/4 of people not go to to college , make it fine for houses to have no insulation and an outside toilet, close the borders and tell 60% of the population to live rurally again.

The idea that buying a house should be as easy as in your parents time is a farce, everything was very very different then.

Brendan Bendar · 19-02-2020 08:20PM

Yurt! wrote: »

The legacy parties, and FG above all, live in a world where they think things can be explained away. What is happening with housing is such a fundamental shift in the Irish economic reality for people, that the more they try to explain it away, use misleading statistics or think of it as an optics problem, the angrier people will become.

They also fail to realise that 10s of thousands of people leave school and college every year and are joining the rental sh*theap. These people are growing in number every year and the mainstraim parties just aren't getting the message. They are accustomed to buying off the public sector or sweetening up pensioners, it's not in their playbook or imagination to solve an issue like this or even in their headspace to know how to tackle it. That's why FG throw their hands in the air and sneer 'there's nothing anybody can do,' because they don't know what to do with the ideological tools baked into the party.

Any party not showing will to change the model of housing provision in Ireland should really get off the stage.

That post as well as being completely inaccurate, has the ring of desperation about it.

As the dog on the ad says, “News for ya.....you’re fooling nobody, pal.”

hatrickpatrick · 19-02-2020 08:22PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

there are people suggesting SF should wait for a re-run, run 80+ candidates and that they'd form a government without issue after it. One even said it in a youtube comment section under dessie singing 'come out ye black and tans' this is the political tour de force were dealing with here.

While the idea of SF being able to form a majority government on their own is obviously ridiculous hyperbole, I feel they definitely stand to gain at least six more seats, and that's in the Dublin regions alone. I was at the count in the RDS over both days and in all honesty, reading about it in the paper or watching it on the news can't really do justice to the staggering surpluses SF's candidates were receiving - Mitchel, Ellis, O'Snodaigh and McDonald all, to my recollection, had surpluses which amounted to full quotas or near as dammit full quotas all on their own, and at least one of them had multiple quotas' worth of votes all in their own first preference transfers.

It was truly astonishing to see, I've been at all three General Election counts from 2011's election onwards and I've never seen anything like this. Either Denise Mitchell's or Dessie Ellis's transfers took more or less a full day to get through the second count because they were so gigantic, normally the length of time between counts drops substantially between the first and second count but I'm pretty sure one of those was announced relatively late on Sunday afternoon and we didn't get count #2 from that constituency until well into Monday due to the sheer size of the surplus.

Yurt2 · 19-02-2020 08:23PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

That post as well as being completely inaccurate, has the ring of desperation about it.

As the dog on the ad says, “News for ya.....you’re fooling nobody, pal.”

I'll say this about you Brendan, you are completely on-brand Fine Gael.

hatrickpatrick · 19-02-2020 08:24PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

That post as well as being completely inaccurate, has the ring of desperation about it.

As the dog on the ad says, “News for ya.....you’re fooling nobody, pal.”

Rather than merely pointing out that a post is in your view inaccurate, it would greatly benefit the debate here if you could outline how, specifically, it earned that epithet. :pac:

Eric Cartman · 19-02-2020 08:25PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

While the idea of SF being able to form a majority government on their own is obviously ridiculous hyperbole, I feel they definitely stand to gain at least six more seats, and that's in the Dublin regions alone. I was at the count in the RDS over both days and in all honesty, reading about it in the paper or watching it on the news can't really do justice to the staggering surpluses SF's candidates were receiving - Mitchel, Ellis, O'Snodaigh and McDonald all, to my recollection, had surpluses which amounted to full quotas or near as dammit full quotas all on their own, and at least one of them had multiple quotas' worth of votes all in their own first preference transfers.

It was truly astonishing to see, I've been at all three General Election counts from 2011's election onwards and I've never seen anything like this. Either Denise Mitchell's or Dessie Ellis's transfers took more or less a full day to get through the second count because they were so gigantic, normally the length of time between counts drops substantially between the first and second count but I'm pretty sure one of those was announced relatively late on Sunday afternoon and we didn't get count #2 from that constituency until well into Monday due to the sheer size of the surplus.

mad what a false promise of free housing can do.
I always look at dublin south central in awe, perpetually vote for free handouts, if a manifesto mentioned jobs the candidate would be run out of the place.

Yurt2 · 19-02-2020 08:25PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

While the idea of SF being able to form a majority government on their own is obviously ridiculous hyperbole, I feel they definitely stand to gain at least six more seats, and that's in the Dublin regions alone. I was at the count in the RDS over both days and in all honesty, reading about it in the paper or watching it on the news can't really do justice to the staggering surpluses SF's candidates were receiving - Mitchel, Ellis, O'Snodaigh and McDonald all, to my recollection, had surpluses which amounted to full quotas or near as dammit full quotas all on their own, and at least one of them had multiple quotas' worth of votes all in their own first preference transfers.

It was truly astonishing to see, I've been at all three General Election counts from 2011's election onwards and I've never seen anything like this. Either Denise Mitchell's or Dessie Ellis's transfers took more or less a full day to get through the second count because they were so gigantic, normally the length of time between counts drops substantially between the first and second count but I'm pretty sure one of those was announced relatively late on Sunday afternoon and we didn't get count #2 from that constituency until well into Monday due to the sheer size of the surplus.

On the Eamon Dunphy podcast, Bertie the old snake (who would tend to know these things) reckoned SF left another 11 seats behind them.

Brendan Bendar · 19-02-2020 08:28PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Rather than merely pointing out that a post is in your view inaccurate, it would greatly benefit the debate here if you could outline how, specifically, it earned that epithet. :pac:

Walls of text do nothing for me, dude.

Sorry bout that.

hatrickpatrick · 19-02-2020 08:29PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Walls of text do nothing for me, dude.

Sorry bout that.

If the three relatively short paragraphs in Yurt's post qualify as "walls of text" in your eyes, one wonders why you're posting on a political forum at all

James Brown · 19-02-2020 08:30PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You do realize that SF got 25% of the vote.....

That relates to the housing situation under the outgoing government how exactly?

hatrickpatrick · 19-02-2020 08:30PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

mad what a false promise of free housing can do.
I always look at dublin south central in awe, perpetually vote for free handouts, if a manifesto mentioned jobs the candidate would be run out of the place.

If Dublin Corporation could pull it off in broke, war-torn, rationed 1930s Ireland, what exactly makes it so impossible for 21st century "recovery" Ireland to get it done?

James Brown · 19-02-2020 08:33PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

tell every woman to stop working, tell 3/4 of people not go to to college , make it fine for houses to have no insulation and an outside toilet, close the borders and tell 60% of the population to live rurally again.

The idea that buying a house should be as easy as in your parents time is a farce, everything was very very different then.

Not talking easy, possible. It should be possible.
I assume you have a house? If not, fair play.

Shefwedfan · 19-02-2020 08:33PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

there are people suggesting SF should wait for a re-run, run 80+ candidates and that they'd form a government without issue after it. One even said it in a youtube comment section under dessie singing 'come out ye black and tans' this is the political tour de force were dealing with here.

SF are losing voters by the day as people realize the “politicians” that got voted in. For a while it was grand as Mary Lou and 1-2 more was all they seen and everyone said they are ok

Now they see a charity robbing person, a nut case after people from Israel and lots more. Mary Lou shouting and roaring to the press but to no other party ....the press are loving it as everyday one of the SF has another story out about them

By the time an elections did come back around they will have shown true colours and be out the door

It doesn’t matter what one crack pot says on YouTube.....sure Facebook is trying to get 100,000 to walk at weekend to demand a SF government :-)

The I seen today another crackpot has started a page to get SF to dump all tolls on Ireland.

James Brown · 19-02-2020 08:35PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

mad what a false promise of free housing can do.
I always look at dublin south central in awe, perpetually vote for free handouts, if a manifesto mentioned jobs the candidate would be run out of the place.

SF didn't get all the votes. FF and FG got similar and the SD's and Greens did okay too. Nobody promised free housing or handouts.
Again, we are supplying housing in leases, purchases and rentals. You are arguing against, in your own coluorful manner, what we already have.

*************

I see talk on the housing situation over the last few years has been hi-jacked into another shinner whinge by the crew.

Shefwedfan · 19-02-2020 08:38PM

Bowie wrote: »

That relates to the housing situation under the outgoing government how exactly?

That relates to you somehow not understanding that 25% of a vote is not the electorate speaking....it’s a small portion of it, the rest want nothing to do with SF

Brendan Bendar · 19-02-2020 08:39PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If Dublin Corporation could pull it off in broke, war-torn, rationed 1930s Ireland, what exactly makes it so impossible for 21st century "recovery" Ireland to get it done?

Building up a bill of 31 million in rent arrears might give one a clue.

Does it for me, a chara.

James Brown · 19-02-2020 08:40PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Building up a bill of 31 million in rent arrears might give one a clue.

Does it for me, a chara.

Yet these tenants are still housed. They will be housed. It's do you want hotels and leases for them or builds. That's the only debate.

Cupatae · 19-02-2020 08:42PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

mad what a false promise of free housing can do.
I always look at dublin south central in awe, perpetually vote for free handouts, if a manifesto mentioned jobs the candidate would be run out of the place.

It highlights how big an issue it is alot bigger than what alot "I'm alright Jack's" would have you believe

The song of were all employed everything is fine is falling on deaf ears

Tony EH · 19-02-2020 08:42PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Building up a bill of 31 million in rent arrears might give one a clue.

Does it for me, a chara.

Rent arrears is no excuse for allowing homes to become unobtainable for people.

hatrickpatrick · 19-02-2020 08:46PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

SF are losing voters by the day as people realize the “politicians” that got voted in. For a while it was grand as Mary Lou and 1-2 more was all they seen and everyone said they are ok

There've been two opinions polls since the election, one of which was published today, and both showed SF actually increasing its support as opposed to losing it.

hatrickpatrick · 19-02-2020 08:59PM

This is what FG's housing policy has led to. Sh!t like this is exactly why young people are so pissed off.

https://www.thejournal.ie/co-living-rathmines-dublin-planning-permission-5013833-Feb2020/

The woman I mentioned earlier in this thread who was evicted from her €1,200 per month apartment in Dun Laoghaire and is now having to pay almost €1,600 per month for a smaller apartment in the same area is one of the people who was utterly depressed when Bartra secured permission for their "co-living" tenement in Dun Laoghaire where they planned to charge, I believe, €1,400 per month for a studio without a kitchen. Remember a few posts back I mentioned how people were utterly sick of the "Ireland is doing better now than it was ten years ago" FG apologists? This is specifically why, if you ask me. Being asked to downgrade from a proper apartment to a bedroom with no kitchen facilities and pay more per month than you had been up until a couple of years ago is the very definition of stagflation (or "shrinkflation" as they often call it in the grocery business) and FG's government gave sickening speeches and statements championing these sh!tholes as "the boutique hotels of the future".

How anyone can blame young people for their wholesale rejection of this is beyond me.

omega man · 19-02-2020 09:21PM

smurgen wrote: »

Bear in mind we're also working longer hours than previous generations ever did and commuting further than previous generations ever did and pretty soon the rising costs and stagnant wages are going to make for an angry angry electorate.

I bought my first house with my partner in 2003 outside of Dublin (where I lived all of my life up to then) as we couldn’t afford to buy in Dublin at the time. It was a difficult commute to our jobs in Dublin for a number of years until we could afford to move back.
Whilst I accept some things are different today I do agree with some of the comments in here about unrealistic expectations about where you think you should be living, be it renting or buying.

Martin Lanigan · 19-02-2020 09:23PM

First thing that SF should do when they get into power is write off all the arrears.

Idbatterim · 19-02-2020 09:24PM

Yurt! wrote: »

The legacy parties, and FG above all, live in a world where they think things can be explained away. What is happening with housing is such a fundamental shift in the Irish economic reality for people, that the more they try to explain it away, use misleading statistics or think of it as an optics problem, the angrier people will become.

They also fail to realise that 10s of thousands of people leave school and college every year and are joining the rental sh*theap. These people are growing in number every year and the mainstream parties just aren't getting the message. They are accustomed to buying off the public sector or sweetening up pensioners, it's not in their playbook or imagination to solve an issue like this or even in their headspace to know how to tackle it. That's why FG throw their hands in the air and sneer 'there's nothing anybody can do,' because they don't know what to do with the ideological tools baked into the party.

Any party not showing will to change the model of housing provision in Ireland should really get off the stage and the individuals in them should seek a new career, because on the current course, this problem will get worse before it gets better.

brilliant post! All of this **** about supply coming on stream, it is speeding up, no doubt about it. But its not going to be anywhere near what we need and the affordability issue isnt being addressed. FG running for the hills makes sense. If this is the anger and backlash now, give it another few years!

The solution? They can forget throwing billions up in smoke on the ****e that they do ever year, throw it at pensioners and welfare. Health is a black hole, they will have to keep feeding that. Every budget removig more from the tax net. Wont increase LPT etc. Listen I am delighted, that this **** show of appalling and reckless governance, is going to be found out , for what it has been! Ive been harping on about it for years! I think renting out the social housing for a pittance is another immoral disgrace, depriving people of homes. The density issue has to be tackled. Then the governments tax take is simply too high on new builds and with apartments, the dual aspect increases costs substantially (if someone was starving, would you only let them shop in m and s!) fcuk sake.

Things are going to get a lot worse and they will only ease, if they start addressing affordability and supply. Supply is up massively, but its nowhere near enough and wont be, to supply the avalance of immigrants, college students, people trapped living at home with parents etc...

I wondered how so many, had been relatively patient up to this point. I dont see any of the parties, actually doing what it takes, I actually think they are so delusional, they cant even comprehend the scale of the problem anyway. I mean I read a quote from a senior FG member the other day, saying they didnt realise, how angry and dissolusioned people were. This is their job and they are paid a spectacular amount to do it and they dont get , what joe soap thinks, go onto a site like this, like the journal, you absolute offensive morons!

They didnt see this reaction coming and these world class clowns, will solve health, housing etc? Even if there isnt another serious financial shock, I can see this coming to a head, become of how socially untenable the entire situation will be. You know what, let FFG face up to the **** show they have created. I voted SF after votin FG previously, on the one hand, I would like to see what they would do, on the other, I dont want to see them obliterated, if they get in and cant change much, due to the system and vested interests. I think I'd prefer to see the axis of failure, have their creation, coming crashing down on top of them! Then let SF in...

Eric Cartman · 19-02-2020 09:24PM

Martin Lanigan wrote: »

First thing that SF should do when they get into power is write off all the arrears.

do you want to bankrupt dcc and the property market, because thats how you get a bankrupt council and property market.

Shefwedfan · 19-02-2020 09:31PM

Martin Lanigan wrote: »

First thing that SF should do when they get into power is write off all the arrears.

Standard SF supporter

Everything for free and no idea what they are talking about....let someone else pay

Tony EH · 19-02-2020 09:32PM

omega man wrote: »

I bought my first house with my partner in 2003 outside of Dublin (where I lived all of my life up to then) as we couldn’t afford to buy in Dublin at the time. It was a difficult commute to our jobs in Dublin for a number of years until we could afford to move back.
Whilst I accept some things are different today I do agree with some of the comments in here about unrealistic expectations about where you think you should be living, be it renting or buying.

Wanting to buy a HOME that isn't in the next feckin county and doesn't hock you into debt until you're an OAP is hardly an unrealistic expectation.

hatrickpatrick · 19-02-2020 09:35PM

omega man wrote: »

I bought my first house with my partner in 2003 outside of Dublin (where I lived all of my life up to then) as we couldn’t afford to buy in Dublin at the time. It was a difficult commute to our jobs in Dublin for a number of years until we could afford to move back.
Whilst I accept some things are different today I do agree with some of the comments in here about unrealistic expectations about where you think you should be living, be it renting or buying.

Is it unreasonable for young people to demand that their quality of life now in full careers during a supposed economic recovery should be at least equal to that of deep recession 2011 Ireland when they were working part time jobs and paying college fees etc? That's honestly where a lot of this is coming from. People have had to massively downgrade their accomodation post-recession despite far higher incomes because of the rent crisis, and FG were insufferably smug about it while in office, Murphy in particular.

The idea that one's quality of life should significantly decrease when transitioning from a part time college job to a full time career in the vast majority of cases is utterly ridiculous, and people simply will not accept it without a fight.

James Brown · 19-02-2020 09:43PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Standard SF supporter

Everything for free and no idea what they are talking about....let someone else pay

Unlikely.

You're thinking FF/FG.

omega man · 19-02-2020 09:48PM

Tony EH wrote: »

Wanting to buy a HOME that isn't in the next feckin county and doesn't hock you into debt until you're an OAP is hardly an unrealistic expectation.

My point was I couldn’t do that in 2003 so things aren’t too different as the post I replied to seemed to suggest this generation are commuting longer etc.
You’re right about an expectation to an extent but a lot depends on where in Dublin you feel this home should be.

What have we come to

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