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Disciplinary Meeting

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  • 03-02-2020 2:16am
    #1
    Jamie13
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭


    Hey, just a quick question. Are workplaces meant to give you notice of a meeting, for example when I arrived in work today I was immediately told to get a witness and to come for a meeting without telling me what it was about, therefore I was unable to prepare to even tell my witness what the meeting was over.


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    #2
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,453 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Links
    http://www.powersolicitors.ie/employment-employees-must-be-given-adequate-notice-of-disciplinary-hearings/
    https://www.collierbroderick.ie/info-centre/employment-law/disciplinary-dismissal/guidelines-for-conducting-disciplinary-investigation-hearings/
    outlines best practice for disciplinary hearings.

    Springing a meeting on you without prior notice would definitely seem to fall short of best practice.


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    #3
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    FishOnABike wrote: »
    Springing a meeting on you without prior notice would definitely seem to fall short of best practice.

    It would entirely depend on the nature of the issue... if the employee had committed an offence that warrants instant dismissal or threatens the integrity of the business.

    Or the company may have decided that they don't care about the costs and need to get the employee out.

    Since we have no idea what it is about, you can't really draw any conclusions...


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    #4
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Was it an investigatory meeting or the actual disciplinary hearing? You need to be given notice of the latter but not the former.


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    #5
    Munstermissy
    Registered Users Posts: 251 ✭✭Munstermissy


    Happened to me, sprung out of nowhere and asked to attend the next day. Told manager it was unacceptable to me to attend with insufficient notice. Meeting arranged for following week. Stand your ground. Also keep your cool at the meeting and take your time with any answers at the meeting. Also record the meeting on your phone.


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    #6
    Jamie13
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭Jamie13


    preliminary meeting


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    #7
    Johnny Sausage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 890 ✭✭✭Johnny Sausage


    Jamie13 wrote: »
    preliminary meeting

    then you dont need to be given notice, only if its a fomal disciplinary hearing


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    #8
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,762 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Munstermissy wrote: »
    Happened to me, sprung out of nowhere and asked to attend the next day. Told manager it was unacceptable to me to attend with insufficient notice. Meeting arranged for following week. Stand your ground. Also keep your cool at the meeting and take your time with any answers at the meeting. Also record the meeting on your phone.

    Not exactly sprung out of nowhere when you were told a day in advance.


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    #9
    Munstermissy
    Registered Users Posts: 251 ✭✭Munstermissy


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Not exactly sprung out of nowhere when you were told a day in advance.

    So you would be okay with attending a disciplinary meeting the next day with no preliminary meeting, no agenda, no evidence presented to you to defend yourself? Yeah right... all this against their own employee handbook.


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    #10
    maxwell smart
    Registered Users Posts: 1,939 ✭✭✭maxwell smart


    Munstermissy wrote: »
    Happened to me, sprung out of nowhere and asked to attend the next day. Told manager it was unacceptable to me to attend with insufficient notice. Meeting arranged for following week. Stand your ground. Also keep your cool at the meeting and take your time with any answers at the meeting. Also record the meeting on your phone.

    Fairly sure you will have to at a minimum tell the other parties you want to do this and they will have to agree, otherwise you could be on shaky ground if it came out afterwards


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    #11
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,762 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Munstermissy wrote: »
    So you would be okay with attending a disciplinary meeting the next day with no preliminary meeting, no agenda, no evidence presented to you to defend yourself? Yeah right... all this against their own employee handbook.

    I would be ok attending a disciplinary meeting with a days notice............but here's the thing...............You didn't say anything about not having a preliminary (investigation???) meeting. You didn't say anything about not having an agenda. You didn't say anything about having no evidence presented to you to defend yourself. You didn't mention the employee handbook not being followed.

    Just to remind you, this is what you posted and my comment was based on that.
    Happened to me, sprung out of nowhere and asked to attend the next day. Told manager it was unacceptable to me to attend with insufficient notice. Meeting arranged for following week. Stand your ground. Also keep your cool at the meeting and take your time with any answers at the meeting. Also record the meeting on your phone.


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    #12
    Munstermissy
    Registered Users Posts: 251 ✭✭Munstermissy


    Battlecor, the OP came in with preliminary meeting after I made my first post but whatever.


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    #13
    Munstermissy
    Registered Users Posts: 251 ✭✭Munstermissy


    maxwell smart wrote: »
    Fairly sure you will have to at a minimum tell the other parties you want to do this and they will have to agree, otherwise you could be on shaky ground if it came out afterwards


    I didn’t advise anywhere to secretly record the meeting. Also only one party has to agree to the recording. I have verified it as I was recorded without being told.


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    #14
    IITYWYBMAD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭IITYWYBMAD


    maxwell smart wrote: »
    Fairly sure you will have to at a minimum tell the other parties you want to do this and they will have to agree, otherwise you could be on shaky ground if it came out afterwards

    This is incorrect. Only a single party has to be aware of the recording, assuming one is made.


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    #15
    dartboardio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,436 ✭✭✭dartboardio


    Thought no recording devices are allowed in those meetings? They were definitely not allowed in my job anyway.


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    #16
    Johnny Sausage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 890 ✭✭✭Johnny Sausage


    dartboardio wrote: »
    Thought no recording devices are allowed in those meetings? They were definitely not allowed in my job anyway.

    ive been in meetings as a union rep where the employer has recorded them on a dictaphone


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    #17
    Soulsun
    Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭Soulsun


    Johnny Sausage wrote: »
    ive been in meetings as a union rep where the employer has recorded them on a dictaphone

    Yep my understanding that this is allowed once all parties agree.


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    #18
    1hnr79jr65
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭1hnr79jr65


    I have been in disciplinary meetings as a manager with HR, where HR refused consent for recording once it was made known.

    I have also recorded some of my own meetings related to personal grievances without informing anyone as i was a party and i was aware of recording.


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    #19
    Skyrimaddict
    Registered Users Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Skyrimaddict


    What a load. Munstermissy, if you record in secret on your phone you will be in serious issues.

    The meeting sounds like a prelim meeting as outlined, so no you don't need any notice. You can st that meeting be suspended with pay.

    OP, if be more concerned that you have done something at work that warrents this other than looking at trying to catch your employer out


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    #20
    Skyrimaddict
    Registered Users Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Skyrimaddict


    Sour Lemonz wrote: »
    I have been in disciplinary meetings as a manager with HR, where HR refused consent for recording once it was made known.

    I have also recorded some of my own meetings related to personal grievances without informing anyone as i was a party and i was aware of recording.

    What rubbish. You cannot legally record someone with out consent and use that later. If your plan is to use the recording at any stage a judge will ask for proof that parties knew about the recording


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    #21
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,518 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    All parties must consent to a recording.


    Anyway, as someone else has said, I'd be more worried around what the issue actually is than trying to catch the employer out.


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    #22
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,762 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    kippy wrote: »
    All parties must consent to a recording.

    That is untrue.

    The consent of one party only is needed.


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    #23
    Skyrimaddict
    Registered Users Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Skyrimaddict


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    That is untrue.

    The consent of one party only is needed.

    For what? One party is the recorder, so there consent is given as they initially recorded the conversation.
    Try bring anything like a recorded meeting to a tribunal without it being made aware that it is recorded and see how it goes


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    #24
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,293 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    It is important to understand, in Ireland, all parties in a conversation do not need to consent to that conversation being recorded. Permission to record is only needed from one party, if you are in a conversation, you can record it without telling anyone else. You cannot however record a conversation you are not a party to, in other words you can’t leave your phone down to record others talking if you are not one of them.

    Whether it can be used in WRC is up to them, but you certainly cannot get in trouble for recording it as it is your right.


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    #25
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,518 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    That is untrue.

    The consent of one party only is needed.

    Okay, let me be clear - If the disciplinary policy of the company has something around audio/video recording of the meeting in it then that is the policy that is followed - it may say that if one party wants to record then that is all that is required however this status would be unlikely.
    Legally, where there is nothing mentioned in the company policy on this both parties have to consent to the recording.
    https://www.legal-island.ie/articles/ire/features/q-and-a/2016/oct/if-employee-asks-to-audio-record-a-disciplinary-hearing-should-we-let-them/

    Again, I don't think any of this is that important in the current context. The OP's attitude should really be focused around establishing what the issue is and trying to resolve it.


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    #26
    Skyrimaddict
    Registered Users Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Skyrimaddict


    Skyrimaddict wrote: »
    For what? One party is the recorder, so there consent is given as they initially recorded the conversation.
    Try bring anything like a recorded meeting to a tribunal without it being made aware that it is recorded and see how it goes

    Are you talking about maybe the witness given consent? And not telling the employer?
    The use of recording while not illegal still needs consent from one other party, so in this case the witness can consent, but in tribunal the judge will not look favorable at all on someone recording a meeting.


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    #27
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,293 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Skyrimaddict wrote: »
    Are you talking about maybe the witness given consent? And not telling the employer?
    The use of recording while not illegal still needs consent from one other party, so in this case the witness can consent, but in tribunal the judge will not look favorable at all on someone recording a meeting.

    In this case the recording actually weakened the employees case, but the company could not discipline her for doing it.

    https://www.irishnews.com/business/2019/11/05/news/handling-covert-recordings-in-the-workplace-1753547/


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    #28
    Skyrimaddict
    Registered Users Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Skyrimaddict


    kippy wrote: »
    Okay, let me be clear - If the disciplinary policy of the company has something around audio/video recording of the meeting in it then that is the policy that is followed - it may say that if one party wants to record then that is all that is required however this status would be unlikely.
    Legally, where there is nothing mentioned in the company policy on this both parties have to consent to the recording.
    https://www.legal-island.ie/articles/ire/features/q-and-a/2016/oct/if-employee-asks-to-audio-record-a-disciplinary-hearing-should-we-let-them/

    Again, I don't think any of this is that important in the current context. The OP's attitude should really be focused around establishing what the issue is and trying to resolve it.


    I'd agree with that most of all. Usually an employee has nothing to worry about and these meetings are not run of the mill.
    The attitude of fight right away would imply someone has been on the negative end of a meeting before and feels wronged.

    Under Irish employment law it is very hard to actually remove someone without significant evidence of not performing in the role, or wrong doing. And an unplanned meeting would suggest the latter


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    #29
    Richard308
    Registered Users Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭Richard308


    Did Maurice maccabe not secretly record an officer of the gardai, who said he said something completely at odds with the recording. And it was recorded in the tribunal.


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    #30
    1hnr79jr65
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭1hnr79jr65


    Skyrimaddict wrote: »
    What rubbish. You cannot legally record someone with out consent and use that later. If your plan is to use the recording at any stage a judge will ask for proof that parties knew about the recording

    You obviously dont understand the law on recording. Ireland has single party consent in relation to recording, If i am a party to the conversation then i can grant myself permission to record without informing others, this is how the law works here.

    Consent from the other party is NOT required.

    If the op wishes to record their hr conversation they can do so covertly if they wish if they are party to the conversation.


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    #31
    Skyrimaddict
    Registered Users Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Skyrimaddict


    Dav010 wrote: »
    In this case the recording actually weakened the employees case, but the company could not discipline her for doing it.

    https://www.irishnews.com/business/2019/11/05/news/handling-covert-recordings-in-the-workplace-1753547/

    Agree, never said it was illegal at all. You are actually protected in Irish law around this, but unless the meeting has a very significant time of bullying or pressure applied to admit wrong doing they do not go well in courts as "secreted recording"
    Honestly, if a company has enough cop on to tell you bring a witness they most likely won't say anything too risky and have the ducks well lined up


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