Disciplinary Meeting

Jamie13

Hey, just a quick question. Are workplaces meant to give you notice of a meeting, for example when I arrived in work today I was immediately told to get a witness and to come for a meeting without telling me what it was about, therefore I was unable to prepare to even tell my witness what the meeting was over.

FishOnABike

Links
http://www.powersolicitors.ie/employment-employees-must-be-given-adequate-notice-of-disciplinary-hearings/
https://www.collierbroderick.ie/info-centre/employment-law/disciplinary-dismissal/guidelines-for-conducting-disciplinary-investigation-hearings/
outlines best practice for disciplinary hearings.

Springing a meeting on you without prior notice would definitely seem to fall short of best practice.

Jim2007

FishOnABike wrote: »

Springing a meeting on you without prior notice would definitely seem to fall short of best practice.

It would entirely depend on the nature of the issue... if the employee had committed an offence that warrants instant dismissal or threatens the integrity of the business.

Or the company may have decided that they don't care about the costs and need to get the employee out.

Since we have no idea what it is about, you can't really draw any conclusions...

Samuel T. Cogley

Was it an investigatory meeting or the actual disciplinary hearing? You need to be given notice of the latter but not the former.

Munstermissy

Happened to me, sprung out of nowhere and asked to attend the next day. Told manager it was unacceptable to me to attend with insufficient notice. Meeting arranged for following week. Stand your ground. Also keep your cool at the meeting and take your time with any answers at the meeting. Also record the meeting on your phone.

Jamie13

preliminary meeting

Johnny Sausage

Jamie13 wrote: »

preliminary meeting

then you dont need to be given notice, only if its a fomal disciplinary hearing

BattleCorp

Munstermissy wrote: »

Happened to me, sprung out of nowhere and asked to attend the next day. Told manager it was unacceptable to me to attend with insufficient notice. Meeting arranged for following week. Stand your ground. Also keep your cool at the meeting and take your time with any answers at the meeting. Also record the meeting on your phone.

Not exactly sprung out of nowhere when you were told a day in advance.

Munstermissy

BattleCorp wrote: »

Not exactly sprung out of nowhere when you were told a day in advance.

So you would be okay with attending a disciplinary meeting the next day with no preliminary meeting, no agenda, no evidence presented to you to defend yourself? Yeah right... all this against their own employee handbook.

maxwell smart

Munstermissy wrote: »

Happened to me, sprung out of nowhere and asked to attend the next day. Told manager it was unacceptable to me to attend with insufficient notice. Meeting arranged for following week. Stand your ground. Also keep your cool at the meeting and take your time with any answers at the meeting. Also record the meeting on your phone.

Fairly sure you will have to at a minimum tell the other parties you want to do this and they will have to agree, otherwise you could be on shaky ground if it came out afterwards

BattleCorp

Munstermissy wrote: »

So you would be okay with attending a disciplinary meeting the next day with no preliminary meeting, no agenda, no evidence presented to you to defend yourself? Yeah right... all this against their own employee handbook.

I would be ok attending a disciplinary meeting with a days notice............but here's the thing...............You didn't say anything about not having a preliminary (investigation???) meeting. You didn't say anything about not having an agenda. You didn't say anything about having no evidence presented to you to defend yourself. You didn't mention the employee handbook not being followed.

Just to remind you, this is what you posted and my comment was based on that.

Happened to me, sprung out of nowhere and asked to attend the next day. Told manager it was unacceptable to me to attend with insufficient notice. Meeting arranged for following week. Stand your ground. Also keep your cool at the meeting and take your time with any answers at the meeting. Also record the meeting on your phone.

Munstermissy

Battlecor, the OP came in with preliminary meeting after I made my first post but whatever.

Munstermissy

maxwell smart wrote: »

Fairly sure you will have to at a minimum tell the other parties you want to do this and they will have to agree, otherwise you could be on shaky ground if it came out afterwards

I didn’t advise anywhere to secretly record the meeting. Also only one party has to agree to the recording. I have verified it as I was recorded without being told.

IITYWYBMAD

maxwell smart wrote: »

Fairly sure you will have to at a minimum tell the other parties you want to do this and they will have to agree, otherwise you could be on shaky ground if it came out afterwards

This is incorrect. Only a single party has to be aware of the recording, assuming one is made.

dartboardio

Thought no recording devices are allowed in those meetings? They were definitely not allowed in my job anyway.

Johnny Sausage

dartboardio wrote: »

Thought no recording devices are allowed in those meetings? They were definitely not allowed in my job anyway.

ive been in meetings as a union rep where the employer has recorded them on a dictaphone

Soulsun

Johnny Sausage wrote: »

ive been in meetings as a union rep where the employer has recorded them on a dictaphone

Yep my understanding that this is allowed once all parties agree.

1hnr79jr65

I have been in disciplinary meetings as a manager with HR, where HR refused consent for recording once it was made known.

I have also recorded some of my own meetings related to personal grievances without informing anyone as i was a party and i was aware of recording.

What a load. Munstermissy, if you record in secret on your phone you will be in serious issues.

The meeting sounds like a prelim meeting as outlined, so no you don't need any notice. You can st that meeting be suspended with pay.

OP, if be more concerned that you have done something at work that warrents this other than looking at trying to catch your employer out

Sour Lemonz

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

I have been in disciplinary meetings as a manager with HR, where HR refused consent for recording once it was made known.

I have also recorded some of my own meetings related to personal grievances without informing anyone as i was a party and i was aware of recording.

What rubbish. You cannot legally record someone with out consent and use that later. If your plan is to use the recording at any stage a judge will ask for proof that parties knew about the recording

kippy

All parties must consent to a recording.


Anyway, as someone else has said, I'd be more worried around what the issue actually is than trying to catch the employer out.

BattleCorp

kippy wrote: »

All parties must consent to a recording.

That is untrue.

The consent of one party only is needed.

BattleCorp

BattleCorp wrote: »

That is untrue.

The consent of one party only is needed.

For what? One party is the recorder, so there consent is given as they initially recorded the conversation.
Try bring anything like a recorded meeting to a tribunal without it being made aware that it is recorded and see how it goes

It is important to understand, in Ireland, all parties in a conversation do not need to consent to that conversation being recorded. Permission to record is only needed from one party, if you are in a conversation, you can record it without telling anyone else. You cannot however record a conversation you are not a party to, in other words you can’t leave your phone down to record others talking if you are not one of them.

Whether it can be used in WRC is up to them, but you certainly cannot get in trouble for recording it as it is your right.

kippy

BattleCorp wrote: »

That is untrue.

The consent of one party only is needed.

Okay, let me be clear - If the disciplinary policy of the company has something around audio/video recording of the meeting in it then that is the policy that is followed - it may say that if one party wants to record then that is all that is required however this status would be unlikely.
Legally, where there is nothing mentioned in the company policy on this both parties have to consent to the recording.
https://www.legal-island.ie/articles/ire/features/q-and-a/2016/oct/if-employee-asks-to-audio-record-a-disciplinary-hearing-should-we-let-them/

Again, I don't think any of this is that important in the current context. The OP's attitude should really be focused around establishing what the issue is and trying to resolve it.

Skyrimaddict

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

For what? One party is the recorder, so there consent is given as they initially recorded the conversation.
Try bring anything like a recorded meeting to a tribunal without it being made aware that it is recorded and see how it goes

Are you talking about maybe the witness given consent? And not telling the employer?
The use of recording while not illegal still needs consent from one other party, so in this case the witness can consent, but in tribunal the judge will not look favorable at all on someone recording a meeting.

Skyrimaddict

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Are you talking about maybe the witness given consent? And not telling the employer?
The use of recording while not illegal still needs consent from one other party, so in this case the witness can consent, but in tribunal the judge will not look favorable at all on someone recording a meeting.

In this case the recording actually weakened the employees case, but the company could not discipline her for doing it.

https://www.irishnews.com/business/2019/11/05/news/handling-covert-recordings-in-the-workplace-1753547/

kippy

kippy wrote: »

Okay, let me be clear - If the disciplinary policy of the company has something around audio/video recording of the meeting in it then that is the policy that is followed - it may say that if one party wants to record then that is all that is required however this status would be unlikely.
Legally, where there is nothing mentioned in the company policy on this both parties have to consent to the recording.
https://www.legal-island.ie/articles/ire/features/q-and-a/2016/oct/if-employee-asks-to-audio-record-a-disciplinary-hearing-should-we-let-them/

Again, I don't think any of this is that important in the current context. The OP's attitude should really be focused around establishing what the issue is and trying to resolve it.

I'd agree with that most of all. Usually an employee has nothing to worry about and these meetings are not run of the mill.
The attitude of fight right away would imply someone has been on the negative end of a meeting before and feels wronged.

Under Irish employment law it is very hard to actually remove someone without significant evidence of not performing in the role, or wrong doing. And an unplanned meeting would suggest the latter

Richard308

Did Maurice maccabe not secretly record an officer of the gardai, who said he said something completely at odds with the recording. And it was recorded in the tribunal.

1hnr79jr65

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

What rubbish. You cannot legally record someone with out consent and use that later. If your plan is to use the recording at any stage a judge will ask for proof that parties knew about the recording

You obviously dont understand the law on recording. Ireland has single party consent in relation to recording, If i am a party to the conversation then i can grant myself permission to record without informing others, this is how the law works here.

Consent from the other party is NOT required.

If the op wishes to record their hr conversation they can do so covertly if they wish if they are party to the conversation.

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

In this case the recording actually weakened the employees case, but the company could not discipline her for doing it.

https://www.irishnews.com/business/2019/11/05/news/handling-covert-recordings-in-the-workplace-1753547/

Agree, never said it was illegal at all. You are actually protected in Irish law around this, but unless the meeting has a very significant time of bullying or pressure applied to admit wrong doing they do not go well in courts as "secreted recording"
Honestly, if a company has enough cop on to tell you bring a witness they most likely won't say anything too risky and have the ducks well lined up

1hnr79jr65

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Agree, never said it was illegal at all. You are actually protected in Irish law around this, but unless the meeting has a very significant time of bullying or pressure applied to admit wrong doing they do not go well in courts as "secreted recording"
Honestly, if a company has enough cop on to tell you bring a witness they most likely won't say anything too risky and have the ducks well lined up

The purpose of recording is accuracy of what is discussed during the meeting. Even if you bring a witness, HR could dispute the competency/accuracy/truth of the witness. HR generally take detailed notes, you are entitled to review these notes and sign off on them and receive a copy but not many know this.

With a verbal recording there is no dispute about what was discussed.

Skyrimaddict

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Agree, never said it was illegal at all. You are actually protected in Irish law around this, but unless the meeting has a very significant time of bullying or pressure applied to admit wrong doing they do not go well in courts as "secreted recording"
Honestly, if a company has enough cop on to tell you bring a witness they most likely won't say anything too risky and have the ducks well lined up

If something is legal to do and there is a well established precedent of the Courts accepting recordings of this type, why would it “not go down well”? The WRC can rule of its admissibility, but are you saying a citizen can be punished for doing something that is legal?

The WRC has a long list of judgements where employers did not have enough cop on.

1hnr79jr65

Dav010 wrote: »

In this case the recording actually weakened the employees case, but the company could not discipline her for doing it.

https://www.irishnews.com/business/2019/11/05/news/handling-covert-recordings-in-the-workplace-1753547/

In this case the employer tried to argue their policy about trust could be used to fire the employee on the spot for secretly recording, however company policy does not trump law.

I do find in this example it was poor form to reduce claimants compensation for recording as it ultimately proved they were unfairly treated. Their representative did them a disservice on arguing this point.

Edit, Also this was UK EAT not Irish so it does not accurately reflect the outcome under Irish law.

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

If something is legal to do and there is a well established precedent of the Courts accepting recordings of this type, why would it “not go down well”? The WRC can rule of its admissibility, but are you saying a citizen can be punished for doing something that is legal?

No, they dont get punished for it. It just does not go down well as it is seen to be adverse to the process of a meeting.
If the facts are present in the meeting and recorded true by both witness and HR, and copies sent out of meeting notes to be verified, then the recording will be null-in-void and will be shown to represent an employee adverse attitude.

At the end of the day, it is not illegal to record, but outlined of very poor practise. Many cases have shown that using recording in a meeting WHERE THE FACTS ARE TRUE AND PRESENTED CORRECTLY does not add any favors to the employee.

Yes, in cases where the employee has been bullied or coerced into something a recording can go well. I have been part of investigations where this has happened.

My point is, like all things it is best to be transparent and work with the process.

Another note, at either a prelim meeting or investigation meeting you can, if you wish ask for union rep to join, which means you need time to organise this.

My initial point still remains though, it is not run of the mill for this type of meeting to be sprung on an employee. Employment law is very much supportive of an employee and to bring a meeting at this level like this has a serious note that the company have found something out that warrents such.
Performance issues would have been managed ( hopefully) long before a prelim meeting.

1hnr79jr65

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

N
Performance issues would have been managed ( hopefully) long before a prelim meeting.

This part is very much agreed upon, any performance issues need to be shown that a documented approach to supporting the employee was followed. Generally performance improvement plans with growth development plans with a fair and achievable goals to reach required level.

If these are discussed in prelim meeting without correct documentation, then effectively the whole process can be shut down at this point and company has to start a documented trail with appropriate glide pathway.

Sour Lemonz

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

This part is very much agreed upon, any performance issues need to be shown that a documented approach to supporting the employee was followed. Generally performance improvement plans with growth development plans with a fair and achievable goals to reach required level.

If these are discussed in prelim meeting without correct documentation, then effectively the whole process can be shut down at this point and company has to start a documented trail with appropriate glide pathway.

Agree fully. Hence why I say, from initial reading of the OP it seems if the company has enough cop to request a witness they should at least have followed procedures.

I say Hopefully!!!

OP, how did the meeting go? You are allowed to request, in a timely manner, the notes taken at the meeting and agree/disagree with points made on same.

kippy

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

You obviously dont understand the law on recording. Ireland has single party consent in relation to recording, If i am a party to the conversation then i can grant myself permission to record without informing others, this is how the law works here.

Consent from the other party is NOT required.

If the op wishes to record their hr conversation they can do so covertly if they wish if they are party to the conversation.

How do you explain this:
https://www.legal-island.ie/articles/ire/features/q-and-a/2016/oct/if-employee-asks-to-audio-record-a-disciplinary-hearing-should-we-let-them/

kippy

kippy wrote: »

How do you explain this:
https://www.legal-island.ie/articles/ire/features/q-and-a/2016/oct/if-employee-asks-to-audio-record-a-disciplinary-hearing-should-we-let-them/

I Think its a case of a policy here , or lack of.

At the end of the day, I usually start any meeting I have on IR issues with a number of statements to establish ground rules
One of them is a very clear an express" I am conducting this meeting in good faith to all parties present today to establish facts. I do not give consent for my audio or video recording to be used in any manner"

Once I say that I am establishing that my consent is not given, so if someone decides to record that is their business. Its not illegal as said, but without given consent it becomes more of an issues.

A company policy might be very black and white on it also.

Ulysses Gaze

Jamie13 wrote: »

Hey, just a quick question. Are workplaces meant to give you notice of a meeting, for example when I arrived in work today I was immediately told to get a witness and to come for a meeting without telling me what it was about, therefore I was unable to prepare to even tell my witness what the meeting was over.

Happened to me before. Sprung on me at 4pm the day before when I was handed a letter (unsigned) that it was a disciplinary hearing for 9am the next day.

So I attended and put the unsigned letter down on the table and told them since this was against their own disciplinary proceedings, I would be leaving the meeting with no comment.

They were, of course, pissed off at me for doing this but I said to them - "Look at your own HR processes. This is not my fault, it's your fault. Now you can push the point here and I will just email the HR Director and MD. So go ahead."

So they set the meeting up for the following week, sent me a letter to which I replied my letter of resignation, which I had prepared. Scanned via email and copying in the HR Director and MD with a timeline of events.

Of course.

IITYWYBMAD

kippy wrote: »

How do you explain this:
https://www.legal-island.ie/articles/ire/features/q-and-a/2016/oct/if-employee-asks-to-audio-record-a-disciplinary-hearing-should-we-let-them/

The Question is:
If an employee asks to audio record a disciplinary hearing should we let them do so?

So, if an Employee asks to record a DH, should HR let them do it.

The Answer is:
1) This should be covered in the company handbook
or
2) The Employer can refuse to consent. However, that consent (given or not) will have no legal relevance.

Ulysses Gaze

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Happened to me before. Sprung on me at 4pm the day before when I was handed a letter (unsigned) that it was a disciplinary hearing for 9am the next day.

So I attended and put the unsigned letter down on the table and told them since this was against their own disciplinary proceedings, I would be leaving the meeting with no comment.

They were, of course, pissed off at me for doing this but I said to them - "Look at your own HR processes. This is not my fault, it's your fault. Now you can push the point here and I will just email the HR Director and MD. So go ahead."

So they set the meeting up for the following week, sent me a letter to which I replied my letter of resignation, which I had prepared. Scanned via email and copying in the HR Director and MD with a timeline of events.

Of course.

You sound like a model employee.

To be fair, what you have outlined was just that, an actual disciplinary hearing.
They do require 5 days notice usually.

The OP was a prelim meeting, so not like for like.

I suppose in your case, a bullet dodged. ( not by you)

kippy

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

The Question is:
If an employee asks to audio record a disciplinary hearing should we let them do so?

So, if an Employee asks to record a DH, should HR let them do it.

The Answer is:
1) This should be covered in the company handbook
or
2) The Employer can refuse to consent. However, that consent (given or not) will have no legal relevance.

I'll ask again, is the consent of both parties required in situation 2? My reading is straight forward - the employer (ie the second party in the both parties scenario) needs to consent to the recording happening.

Ulysses Gaze

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

You sound like a model employee.

To be fair, what you have outlined was just that, an actual disciplinary hearing.
They do require 5 days notice usually.

The OP was a prelim meeting, so not like for like.

I suppose in your case, a bullet dodged. ( not by you)

By pointing out their lack of following their own standard procedure, I was doing them a favour in the long run.

You are right. A bullet dodged by them. Maybe they won't try and do it again to other employees who won't know what they are getting into or won't know their rights.

However, I doubt that specific HR "Partner", nicknamed "The Invisible Man" because he was never seen, learnt anything though given his attitude overall.

Hence why said email was sent.

Ulysses Gaze

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

By pointing out their lack of following their own standard procedure, I was doing them a favour in the long run.

You are right. A bullet dodged by them. Maybe they won't try and do it again to other employees who won't know what they are getting into or won't know their rights.

However, I doubt that specific HR "Partner", nicknamed "The Invisible Man" because he was never seen, learnt anything though given his attitude overall.

Hence why said email was sent.

Did they ever point out what you were in for?
Care to share,?

Munstermissy

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

What a load. Munstermissy, if you record in secret on your phone you will be in serious issues.

The meeting sounds like a prelim meeting as outlined, so no you don't need any notice. You can st that meeting be suspended with pay.

OP, if be more concerned that you have done something at work that warrents this other than looking at trying to catch your employer out

My disciplinary meeting was recorded without my knowledge. No notes were taken on their part but a full minutes of meeting presented to me. Their notes differed to mine as it suited their agenda! They had to re write the minutes and take out stuff that was not part of meeting.

I was given a verbal warning which I subsequently appealed even though I was on a hiding to nothing. At the appeal meeting I told them I was going to record it and they had no objections bearing in mind I called them out on when they recorded me. By the way I knew the employee handbook inside out at this stage.

Anyway, maybe the OP has done nothing wrong. Companies go down this route and making allegations in the hope that people will leave in my opinion.

It took a while but I got the hell out of dodge. Best decision I ever made.

Munstermissy

Munstermissy wrote: »

My disciplinary meeting was recorded without my knowledge. No notes were taken on their part but a full minutes of meeting presented to me. Their notes differed to mine as it suited their agenda! They had to re write the minutes and take out stuff that was not part of meeting.

I was given a verbal warning which I subsequently appealed even though I was on a hiding to nothing. At the appeal meeting I told them I was going to record it and they had no objections bearing in mind I called them out on when they recorded me. By the way I knew the employee handbook inside out at this stage.

Anyway, maybe the OP has done nothing wrong. Companies go down this route and making allegations in the hope that people will leave in my opinion.

It took a while but I got the hell out of dodge. Best decision I ever made.

That is a very different senario to what you mentioned earlier!
Yes if they recorded meeting and took no notes you are probably right to do same next time.

Witness should also help. If you had any back up notes to support you, print and keep copies.

I worked on a case before, meant to be open and shut of a bootstrap internal business. Chap fired on the foot of investigation internally by manager with agenda. Turned out employee had emails from manager asking them to do a deep dive into CRO level info on a competitor and write a note list of who's who in company, how it started etc.
Looked like employee was involved and he got the sack.
My firm got involved and needless to say we went hard as informed was easy to see and company got a hefty payment to chap. Manager fired!

Just keep detailed notes, factual on all meetings, and email copies of notes to be safe

1hnr79jr65

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

I Think its a case of a policy here , or lack of.

At the end of the day, I usually start any meeting I have on IR issues with a number of statements to establish ground rules
One of them is a very clear an express" I am conducting this meeting in good faith to all parties present today to establish facts. I do not give consent for my audio or video recording to be used in any manner"

Once I say that I am establishing that my consent is not given, so if someone decides to record that is their business. Its not illegal as said, but without given consent it becomes more of an issues.

A company policy might be very black and white on it also.

Law > company policy, simples.

1hnr79jr65

kippy wrote: »

I'll ask again, is the consent of both parties required in situation 2? My reading is straight forward - the employer (ie the second party in the both parties scenario) needs to consent to the recording happening.

On point 2, consent does NOT need to be requested if the op is one of the parties in the meeting and op can record without knowledge of company.

tom_tarbucket

Can everyone get over the recording scenario. It’s mentioned in nearly every post.

1hnr79jr65

Jamie13 wrote: »

Hey, just a quick question. Are workplaces meant to give you notice of a meeting, for example when I arrived in work today I was immediately told to get a witness and to come for a meeting without telling me what it was about, therefore I was unable to prepare to even tell my witness what the meeting was over.

The generally accepted notification period is 24-48 hours notice in writing of the meeting with topic for discussion and why the meeting is being called for formal meeting. The notice period can be extended or shortened within reason on agreement between all parties.

Informal meetings can be held at short notice, however the fact you are being asked to bring a representative along for what could be a fact finding meeting makes it sound more formal than what is suggested.