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Jordan Peterson interview on C4

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Comments

  • #4622
    20Cent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »
    Lesbians who said "I won't have sex with trans women" were derided by London Pride as hateful transphobic bigots, analogous to how a white woman who said "I won't have sex with black men" would be derided as a hateful racist bigot.

    Ideology has replaced common sense. In the minds of trans activists, a biological male who has identified as a woman since last Tuesday is as much a woman as someone who was born and raised female. In their view, if you identify as female, you are female — no ifs, ands, or buts — and anyone who disagrees is a bigot.

    This is what these lesbians are up against. And they are not helped by this kind of willful twisting and obfuscation.

    They don't acknowledge transwomen as women.
    Your imagination turned that into having sex with them.


  • #4623
    20Cent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭20Cent


    xckjoo wrote: »
    Feel free to quote where you saw this but I went back through the thread and the first person I found mentioning it was you.

    Here's your post to save you time:

    It was in response to some weird rant by someone else, but they didn't state anything like the belief that anybody is being forced to have sex with anyone. Perhaps you jumped the gun slightly?

    This started it.



    Originally Posted by Gynoid View Post
    How does it affect you? Will you be cavorting with transman's manly vaginas if gay and pretending that it is no different than a cock?

    It is odd how much more often it is the females, ie lesbians, being asked to suck it up(!) But I so rarely hear about the gay men being told they have to get with the transmen's fannies.


  • #4624
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    The amount of whatabboutery in this thread is ridiculous. Also whenever transgender comes up as an issue (which is a hell of a lot more than the percentage of the population that is actually trans) the argument will always be pushed to the fringes. "what about ladies changing rooms/toilets?" "what about tall hairy men who wake up one day and say I'm a woman and that's it" "what about lesbians who wont sleep with trans people?" Ultimately all it is is a vapid attempt to disguise their own bigotry and resentment of a minority group.


  • #4625
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    The amount of whatabboutery in this thread is ridiculous. Also whenever transgender comes up as an issue (which is a hell of a lot more than the percentage of the population that is actually trans) the argument will always be pushed to the fringes. "what about ladies changing rooms/toilets?" "what about tall hairy men who wake up one day and say I'm a woman and that's it" "what about lesbians who wont sleep with trans people?" Ultimately all it is is a vapid attempt to disguise their own bigotry and resentment of a minority group.

    That’s not a fringe issue. Trying to cow people by casting them as bigots worked for a while. Thankfully, more and more people are speaking out now from different groups in society.


  • #4626
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    That’s not a fringe issue.

    I'd say only the extremely insecure or permanently angry consider it anything other than a fringe issue.


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  • #4627
    20Cent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    That’s not a fringe issue.

    It is a fringe issue.
    Less than a fraction of 1% of the population.
    Being in a bathroom or changing room at the same time as a trans person is very unlikely. Even if you were would you even notice.
    And if you did notice so feckin what.


  • #4628
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    I'd say only the extremely insecure or permanently angry consider it anything other than a fringe issue.

    I don’t consider it a fringe issue. I... guess I’m extremely insecure or permanently angry then.


  • #4629
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,819 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Wibbs wrote: »
    As an aside; I don't get this whole American style Respect stuff. I certainly don't expect respect on a daily basis. I do expect, or rather hope for common courtesy, respect is something I earn. It's not an automatic expectation.

    I actually agree with that.

    But I believe calling someone by their preferred pronoun is common courtesy.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #4630
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    20Cent wrote: »
    It is a fringe issue.
    Less than a fraction of 1% of the population.
    Being in a bathroom or changing room at the same time as a trans person is very unlikely. Even if you were would you even notice.
    And if you did notice so feckin what.

    I'd certainly assume more people of the opposite gender use the wrong bathroom (accidentally or willingly) than trans people would use the bathroom, where's the big drive to stop that? Oh, because it's not a tiny minority group that makes you feel insecure about yourself it's not worth pursuing.


  • #4631
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    Ultimately all it is is a vapid attempt to disguise their own bigotry and resentment of a minority group.

    Nonsense.

    A biological male can take as many hormones, undergo as much surgery, or file as many lawsuits as he wants — but he will never be an actual woman. That's the immutable reality of gender.

    Natural-born women can tell the difference, and many don't want biological males in their bathrooms and changing rooms. Lesbians can tell the difference, and don't want biological males as sexual partners. Female athletes can tell the difference, and don't want biological males punching them in the face.

    This is not "bigotry." It's simply pointing out the fallacy of the social constructivist stance. Identifying as female does not make someone an actual woman, no matter how many Judith Butler books one reads.


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  • #4632
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,819 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I can pretty much guarantee that in forty years time many of the positions you hold so dear will be considered outspoken, even "intolerant".

    What positions? I have a feeling you’re projecting.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #4633
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    I don’t consider it a fringe issue. I... guess I’m extremely insecure or permanently angry then.

    I guess so yes. Though based on our previous interactions on similar threads I'd have already subscribed to that theory.


  • #4634
    20Cent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »
    Nonsense.

    A biological male can take as many hormones, undergo as much surgery, or file as many lawsuits as he wants — but he will never be an actual woman. That's the immutable reality of gender.

    Natural-born women can tell the difference, and many don't want biological males in their bathrooms and changing rooms. Lesbians can tell the difference, and don't want biological males as sexual partners. Female athletes can tell the difference, and don't want biological males punching them in the face.

    This is not "bigotry." It's simply pointing out the fallacy of the social constructivist stance. Identifying as female does not make someone an actual woman, no matter how many Judith Butler books one reads.

    Where do you think trans people should go to the bathroom or change?


  • #4635
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Brian? wrote: »
    I actually agree with that.

    But I believe calling someone by their preferred pronoun is common courtesy.

    Was it was courteous to ask a woman giving her account of her attack in court to refer to her biologically male attacker by the preferred pronouns? I don’t that showed much courtesy towards the victim (the accused was convicted). To her, the biological sex of her attacker was important as the attack was likely more harmful because of that. This might be an isolated incident. But that doesn’t matter to the victim, does it?


  • #4636
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,819 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    20Cent wrote: »
    Where do you think trans people should go to the bathroom or change?

    It’s funny, I think people should use whatever jacks they want. Somehow this is controversial.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #4637
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »
    Nonsense.

    A biological male can take as many hormones, undergo as much surgery, or file as many lawsuits as he wants — but he will never be an actual woman. That's the immutable reality of gender.

    Natural-born women can tell the difference, and many don't want biological males in their bathrooms and changing rooms. Lesbians can tell the difference, and don't want biological males as sexual partners. Female athletes can tell the difference, and don't want biological males punching them in the face.

    This is not "bigotry." It's simply pointing out the fallacy of the social constructivist stance. Identifying as female does not make someone an actual woman, no matter how many Judith Butler books one reads.

    That depends entirely on your definition of women and I think you may have managed to speak for so many sections of society who probably don't want you as a mouthpiece. As a male, I have no problem with a trans person in the same bathroom/locker room as myself. I suspect your anti trans lesbians are a minority of the lesbian community. Are you a female athlete? What percentage of female athletes have spoken out against trans athletes? So, please put your sweeping statements for sections of society that you absolutely don't represent back in your box.


  • #4638
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    I guess so yes. Though based on our previous interactions on similar threads I'd have already subscribed to that theory.

    I actually don’t recall having much encounter with you at all on boards. I know something about the personalities of some boardsies. I can’t say I know anything about you. What threads?


  • #4639
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Was it was courteous to ask a woman giving her account of her attack in court to refer to her biologically male attacker by the preferred pronouns? I don’t that showed much courtesy towards the victim (the accused was convicted). To her, the biological sex of her attacker was important as the attack was likely more harmful because of that. This might be an isolated incident. But that doesn’t matter to the victim, does it?

    And maybe spreading hate online towards Transgender people contributes to how society at large feels about that group and contributes to a vastly higher percentage of physical and mental attacks they have to deal with every day of their lives. Maybe you should try putting yourself in their shoes. Maybe a bit of humanity wouldn't go astray.


  • #4640
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,819 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Was it was courteous to ask a woman giving her account of her attack in court to refer to her biologically male attacker by the preferred pronouns? I don’t that showed much courtesy towards the victim (the accused was convicted). To her, the biological sex of her attacker was important as the attack was likely more harmful because of that. This might be an isolated incident. But that doesn’t matter to the victim, does it?

    It wasn’t courteous, no. It should not have happened.

    I’ll be pretty clear here. I don’t think anyone should be compelled to call anyone anything. Compelled speech is always wrong. People should never face legal punishment for dead naming trans people.

    But, that doesn’t mean it’s ok to do it. It’s plain rude to do it when you know well you’re being rude.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #4641
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    I actually don’t recall having much encounter with you at all on boards. I know something about the personalities of some boardsies. I can’t say I know anything about you. What threads?

    You're name is odd so I remember some, not overly bothered to go back and read which ones but I'm pretty confident it was against about transgender people.


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  • #4642
    Call Me Jimmy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    That depends entirely on your definition of women and I think you may have managed to speak for so many sections of society who probably don't want you as a mouthpiece. As a male, I have no problem with a trans person in the same bathroom/locker room as myself. I suspect your anti trans lesbians are a minority of the lesbian community. Are you a female athlete? What percentage of female athletes have spoken out against trans athletes? So, please put your sweeping statements for sections of society that you absolutely don't represent back in your box.

    Are you, Brian and 20RulesForRadicals trans? How can any of you have a valid opinion on trans issues if not?
    And yes, female athletes (some very famous and previously loved) have begun to cop on to what happens when you have to lie about biology so an not to get your reputation besmirched.

    In fact you should know how dumb a move that is to talk about that. Read the book again.


  • #4643
    nkl12xtw5goz70
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭nkl12xtw5goz70


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    As a male, I have no problem with a trans person in the same bathroom/locker room as myself.

    Good for you. As the father of four young daughters who like to go swimming with their mother, I do have a problem with a biological male displaying "her" penis to my children in the changing room under the guise of identifying as female.


  • #4644
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    20Cent wrote: »
    It is a fringe issue.
    Less than a fraction of 1% of the population.
    Being in a bathroom or changing room at the same time as a trans person is very unlikely. Even if you were would you even notice.
    And if you did notice so feckin what.

    If 11 year old menstruating me ran into a biological male into a public restroom, I’d have been deeply uncomfortable. The toilets were somewhat of a haven. I struggled a lot with that premature change. And it’s not actually that rare to begin puberty so young. Should that discomfort be handwaved away? I don’t see why transwomen using the women’s loos being rare should matter. To the person experiencing it, how rarely it happens makes little difference.


  • #4645
    xckjoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,499 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    20Cent wrote: »
    This started it.



    Originally Posted by Gynoid View Post
    How does it affect you? Will you be cavorting with transman's manly vaginas if gay and pretending that it is no different than a cock?

    It is odd how much more often it is the females, ie lesbians, being asked to suck it up(!) But I so rarely hear about the gay men being told they have to get with the transmen's fannies.


    Ya but that doesn't say anything about lesbians being forced to have sex with anyone. It is a weird rant, I'll give you that and I'm not entirely sure what they were getting at, but you've spent the last couple of pages accusing everyone of saying lesbians are being forced to have sex and nobody has actually said it.

    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    The amount of whatabboutery in this thread is ridiculous. Also whenever transgender comes up as an issue (which is a hell of a lot more than the percentage of the population that is actually trans) the argument will always be pushed to the fringes. "what about ladies changing rooms/toilets?" "what about tall hairy men who wake up one day and say I'm a woman and that's it" "what about lesbians who wont sleep with trans people?" Ultimately all it is is a vapid attempt to disguise their own bigotry and resentment of a minority group.
    No it's details! That's what make up the majority of difficulties in everything in life. You can't just dismiss it as irrelevant and call anyone that brings it up as transphobic. These things have very real implications in life; from building design, to sporting rules, to how to extend common courtesy to people.

    I'm sure there are people here that wouldn't have much time for trans people, but so far most of the discussion has been demoaning the fact that it's impossible to discuss these very real (and unavoidable) issues without being called a bigot and transphobic. You haven't even let the bigots get far enough to show their true colours, just jumping on anyone that raises an issue and try to reduce them to evil people.


  • #4646
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Call Me Jimmy wrote: »
    Are you, Brian and 20RulesForRadicals trans? How can any of you have a valid opinion on trans issues if not?
    And yes, female athletes (some very famous and previously loved) have begun to cop on to what happens when you have to lie about biology so an not to get your reputation besmirched.

    Nope, I'm not sure if we have a trans poster on this entire forum, and if we do I couldn't blame them for avoiding After Hours. I'm gay, I'm friends with trans people and have been since I was a teenager, I've been in LGBTQ rights groups with trans people, I dated a trans person and as a collective they are some of the bravest people I know because I know what kind of abuse they go through everyday just to live life as themselves and I probably couldn't do it, they are incredible.


  • #4647
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,819 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »
    Good for you. As the father of four young daughters who like to go swimming with their mother, I do have a problem with a biological male displaying "her" penis to my children in the changing room under the guise of identifying as female.

    Seriously? Here in the Netherlands kids of both genders change in the male changing room all the time. There is no taboo about it. It’s common practice in Europe.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #4648
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    LineOfBeauty wrote: »
    You're name is odd so I remember some, not overly bothered to go back and read which ones but I'm pretty confident it was against about transgender people.

    Well, I have views on the topic. I know I’m not a bigot though or extremely insecure or perpetually angry. Thank heavens people are beginning to push back against such characterisations.


  • #4649
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Brian? wrote: »
    Seriously? Here in the Netherlands kids of both genders change in the male changing room all the time. There is no taboo about it. It’s common practice in Europe.

    Maybe it'd be a good opportunity to explain to your kids what a transgender person is and give them a positive mental framework on the issue from a young age.


  • #4650
    LineOfBeauty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,211 ✭✭✭LineOfBeauty


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Well, I have views on the topic. I know I’m not a bigot though or extremely insecure or perpetually angry. Thank heavens people are beginning to push back against such characterisations.

    Your views are very clear, that much is obvious.


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  • #4651
    20Cent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Brian? wrote: »
    Seriously? Here in the Netherlands kids of both genders change in the male changing room all the time. There is no taboo about it. It’s common practice in Europe.

    Common in Ireland as well.
    Dunno what the fuss is about.


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