Jordan Peterson interview on C4

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 11:27AM

Deleted User wrote: »

So, I can't criticise the gender identity and trans activists who demand that I change my language use about gender and identity? Even though it's being forced on me without any consultation? Or I can? I'm a little confused as to what you're arguing.

Sigh. Once more with the far right... It just keeps popping up.

Poor you, having to use a different 3 letter word to describe someone who has probably gone through a life of hardship and who is in a minority of people who are at far higher risk both in terms of physical and mental abuse from others and who are far more likely to self harm or take their own lives (and as a result are much more likely to have friends from that same group who have taken their own life) than you will ever be. Poor you, having to treat someone with a little bit of common courtesy, my heart bleeds for you.

Yes, it keeps popping up on a thread about Jordan Peterson, I for one am shocked that the term "far right" keeps appearing....

17-02-2020 11:34AM

20Cent wrote: »

What happens if you criticize someones gender identity?

sigh. Playing with sentences now, are we?

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Poor you,

You really want to start that BS?

having to use a different 3 letter word to describe someone who has probably gone through a life of hardship and who is in a minority of people who are at far higher risk both in terms of physical and mental abuse from others and who are far more likely to self harm or take their own lives (and as a result are much more likely to have friends from that same group who have taken their own life) than you will ever be. Poor you, having to treat someone with a little bit of common courtesy, my heart bleeds for you.

Yes, it keeps popping up on a thread about Jordan Peterson, I for one am shocked that the term "far right" keeps appearing....

Like talking to a wall. I'm guessing you didn't read the previous few pages of posts at all. I'm kinda tired of repeating myself every few posts.

You're shocked at "far right" appearing, when you're using it in your posts? Right. Okay. Enough said.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-02-2020 11:35AM

xckjoo wrote: »

It's both to be honest. The extremes on the "left" and "right" shut down all difference of opinion with cries of discrimination and use of intimidation. There's a lot of sh1tty people in the world that just want to force people to think like them. The ideological side they sign up to if often irrelevant.

You're correct.

My point is that it's not the 1970s anymore. The Church and other proponents of traditional family values no longer wield the power and influence in Irish society that they once did. Those who "just want to force people to think like them" now exist predominantly on the politically correct left.

Those who endorse traditional moral values now risk being branded racist, sexist, xenophobic, homophobic, transphobic, and a whole host of other -ists and -phobics just for stating their beliefs. Tactics employed by politically correct authoritarians include social media mobbing, threatening people's employment status, or even trying to get them prosecuted for "hate."

It's ridiculous to say that people are being "brave" by supporting feminist beliefs or promoting acceptance of homosexuality in today's Ireland. It was certainly the case in Ireland decades ago that anyone advocating such positions was sticking his or her neck out, but social attitudes have shifted dramatically since the 1980s. In recent years, overwhelming numbers of young people openly voted to legalize same-sex marriage and repeal the eighth amendment. There's no shame or stigma attached to advocating pro-LGBT or pro-choice views anymore; these views are now mainstream and standard.

By contrast, No voters in these referendums were stigmatized as being homophobic or enemies of women. They were treated as reactionary pariahs. Therefore, it took much more bravery to openly defy the politically correct position than to advocate it.

20Cent · 17-02-2020 11:36AM

Deleted User wrote: »

sigh. Playing with sentences now, are we?

You really want to start that BS?

Just asking what terrible thing happens if someone criticises another persons gender identity. This obsession with trans people is so weird. Live and let live let them on with it it's a fraction of 1% of the population. We change our language all the time depending on who we are talking to. Why is it an issue with trans people.

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 11:44AM

Deleted User wrote: »

sigh. Playing with sentences now, are we?

You really want to start that BS?

Like talking to a wall. I'm guessing you didn't read the previous few pages of posts at all. I'm kinda tired of repeating myself every few posts.

You're shocked at "far right" appearing, when you're using it in your posts? Right. Okay. Enough said.

Yes I do. You don't want to be called out on being a transphobe then don't be transphobic. It's that simple.

What did you think was going to happen in a thread about a far right agitator? Of course people are going to use that term, doesn't get more obvious than that.

17-02-2020 11:48AM

20Cent wrote: »

Just asking what terrible thing happens if someone criticises another persons gender identity. This obsession with trans people is so weird. Live and let live let them on with it it's a fraction of 1% of the population. We change our language all the time depending on who we are talking to. Why is it an issue with trans people.

Because it's not based on the individual. If I meet an individual trans person who asks me to use their chosen pronoun, I have no problem with that. But as with boards and other areas in society, we are being told that we must apply it everywhere, and not solely with trans people. Anyone, it seems, can identify themselves as something other than their gender, and expect complete acceptance of that chosen gender.

As you say, it is related to an extreme minority, of whom, most people are ever likely to have a social interaction with. Common decency should be followed with a trans individual being treated with respect, but where is the limit on that? Do we treat them completely as their preferred gender?

This change is not simply about those people we meet personally. It has much larger sweeping changes in society, continuing into the 'rights' that trans have with their transformed gender. Discussion should be encouraged and not shut down, which I find common in these threads. Posters who support the changes tend to insult/demean those with concerns about the whole topic. I've never had any issues on a personal level with a trans person, and I don't expect that to change...

17-02-2020 11:51AM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Yes I do. You don't want to be called out on being a transphobe then don't be transphobic. It's that simple.

Absolute horse****. Anyone who doesn't completely accept all trans related issues is a transphobe. That's the extent of your logic games. The use of "far right" in your post reinforces that.

xckjoo · 17-02-2020 11:58AM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Yes I do. You don't want to be called out on being a transphobe then don't be transphobic. It's that simple.

What did you think was going to happen in a thread about a far right agitator? Of course people are going to use that term, doesn't get more obvious than that.

Immediately calling someone that doesn't agree with everything you believe "-phobic" is exactly the behavior people are trying to call attention to. If you disagree with their position try discussing it with them instead of trying to instantly cast them as a pariah.

20Cent · 17-02-2020 11:58AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Because it's not based on the individual. If I meet an individual trans person who asks me to use their chosen pronoun, I have no problem with that. But as with boards and other areas in society, we are being told that we must apply it everywhere, and not solely with trans people. Anyone, it seems, can identify themselves as something other than their gender, and expect complete acceptance of that chosen gender.

As you say, it is related to an extreme minority, of whom, most people are ever likely to have a social interaction with. Common decency should be followed with a trans individual being treated with respect, but where is the limit on that? Do we treat them completely as their preferred gender?

This change is not simply about those people we meet personally. It has much larger sweeping changes in society, continuing into the 'rights' that trans have with their transformed gender. Discussion should be encouraged and not shut down, which I find common in these threads. Posters who support the changes tend to insult/demean those with concerns about the whole topic. I've never had any issues on a personal level with a trans person, and I don't expect that to change...

Which rights do you have a problem with?

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 11:59AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Because it's not based on the individual. If I meet an individual trans person who asks me to use their chosen pronoun, I have no problem with that. But as with boards and other areas in society, we are being told that we must apply it everywhere, and not solely with trans people. Anyone, it seems, can identify themselves as something other than their gender, and expect complete acceptance of that chosen gender.

As you say, it is related to an extreme minority, of whom, most people are ever likely to have a social interaction with. Common decency should be followed with a trans individual being treated with respect, but where is the limit on that? Do we treat them completely as their preferred gender?

This change is not simply about those people we meet personally. It has much larger sweeping changes in society, continuing into the 'rights' that trans have with their transformed gender. Discussion should be encouraged and not shut down, which I find common in these threads. Posters who support the changes tend to insult/demean those with concerns about the whole topic. I've never had any issues on a personal level with a trans person, and I don't expect that to change...

What examples have you encountered of people who have legally changed their identity to something other than a gender? For a topic you seem very passionate about I assume you have some personal experience of it.

So, in summary, you'll toe the line of respect to somebody's face but then behind their back (or online) you'll argue that they should be treated as second class citizens and that there should be a limit on how much respect they are given, of course it should not be the same amount of respect that you expect to be given on a day to day basis right?

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 12:01PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Absolute horse****. Anyone who doesn't completely accept all trans related issues is a transphobe. That's the extent of your logic games. The use of "far right" in your post reinforces that.

Anyone who insists that there should be a discussion on how much respect another person is treated with based on what gender they wish to be identified as is a transphobe. Any person who treats a trans person as a second class citizen is a transhpobe. Don't like it? Don't be a transphobe and treat everyone the same.

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 12:03PM

xckjoo wrote: »

Immediately calling someone that doesn't agree with everything you believe "-phobic" is exactly the behavior people are trying to call attention to. If you disagree with their position try discussing it with them instead of trying to instantly cast them as a pariah.

What's to discuss? You say transphobic things, or you act in a transphobic way, then that's what you are. It's simple. Trying to make someone lesser in society, that's your pariah and that's a person that lacks basic human decency and then is shocked when they're called on it, that's a pariah.

17-02-2020 12:06PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Anyone who insists that there should be a discussion on how much respect another person is treated with based on what gender they wish to be identified as is a transphobe. Any person who treats a trans person as a second class citizen is a transhpobe. Don't like it? Don't be a transphobe and treat everyone the same.

Ahh okay. I can now be comfortable throwing in the term "far left" now. Awesome!

Thanks for showing just how unreasonable and intolerant your stance is.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-02-2020 12:07PM

20Cent wrote: »

Just asking what terrible thing happens if someone criticises another persons gender identity. This obsession with trans people is so weird. Live and let live let them on with it it's a fraction of 1% of the population. We change our language all the time depending on who we are talking to. Why is it an issue with trans people.

Language becomes an issue because compelling people to use "preferred pronouns" is the thin edge of the wedge. If I'm compelled to refer to a biological male who claims he's a women as "she," I'm obliged linguistically to recognize that person as female — which then weakens the case for objecting when "she" wants open access to women's bathrooms, changing rooms, athletic competitions, and domestic violence refuges. This is a state of affairs that many actual women don't want, and not just because they're "transphobic."

20Cent · 17-02-2020 12:10PM

Kassidy Savory Tick wrote: »

Language becomes an issue because compelling people to use "preferred pronouns" is the thin edge of the wedge. If I'm compelled to refer to a biological male who claims he's a women as "she," I'm obliged linguistically to recognize that person as female — which then weakens the case for objecting when "she" wants open access to women's bathrooms, changing rooms, athletic competitions, and domestic violence refuges. This is a state of affairs that many actual women don't want, and not just because they're "transphobic."

Are you compelled to use pronouns?
Has there been some law passed about it?

Wibbs · 17-02-2020 12:11PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

What's to discuss? You say transphobic things, or you act in a transphobic way, then that's what you are. It's simple. Trying to make someone lesser in society, that's your pariah and that's a person that lacks basic human decency and then is shocked when they're called on it, that's a pariah.

I'm not sure you quite understand what the word "pariah" means.

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 12:11PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh okay. I can now be comfortable throwing in the term "far left" now. Awesome!

Thanks for showing just how unreasonable and intolerant your stance is.

Sure work away, if far left means not having to debate whether everybody deserves basic human decency and respect then yep, I'm far left. If far left means not staring a person in the eye and pretending to be "OK" with them and then logging onto a forum to denigrate their lifestyle and argue in favour of revoking their rights, then baby I'm as far left as a person can be. Because the opposite of far left sounds cowardly.

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 12:12PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm not sure you quite understand what the word "pariah" means.

Give me your definition.

Wibbs · 17-02-2020 12:13PM

As an aside; I don't get this whole American style Respect stuff. I certainly don't expect respect on a daily basis. I do expect, or rather hope for common courtesy, respect is something I earn. It's not an automatic expectation.

xckjoo · 17-02-2020 12:15PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

What's to discuss? You say transphobic things, or you act in a transphobic way, then that's what you are. It's simple. Trying to make someone lesser in society, that's your pariah and that's a person that lacks basic human decency and then is shocked when they're called on it, that's a pariah.

Where did Klaz say stuff or act in a transphobic way? Genuinely curious a I didn't spot it.

20Cent · 17-02-2020 12:15PM

Wibbs wrote: »

As an aside; I don't get this whole American style Respect stuff. I certainly don't expect respect on a daily basis. I do expect, or rather hope for common courtesy, respect is something I earn. It's not an automatic expectation.

If you are at work you expect your employer not to demean and bully you?
If you are out and about do you expect to be treated the same as everyone else?

If not you have the right to object.

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 12:17PM

xckjoo wrote: »

Where did Klaz say stuff or act in a transphobic way? Genuinely curious a I didn't spot it.

You may have missed the bit where he's decided that we should have to have a debate about whether we should respect transgender people. Essentially he views them as second class citizens, not worthy of the rights of any other members of society. Treating any minority group as lesser is not right.

Wibbs · 17-02-2020 12:20PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Give me your definition.

Outcast. EG

What's to discuss? You say transphobic things, or you act in a transphobic way, then that's what you are. It's simple. Trying to make someone lesser in society, that's your outcast and that's a person that lacks basic human decency and then is shocked when they're called on it, that's an outcast.

Doesn't make sense to me anyway, though I get your general gist.

17-02-2020 12:20PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Sure work away, if far left means not having to debate whether everybody deserves basic human decency and respect then yep, I'm far left.

I love how you expect to have a debate when you call them transphobic and a transphobe.

If far left means not staring a person in the eye and pretending to be "OK" with them and then logging onto a forum to denigrate their lifestyle and argue in favour of revoking their rights, then baby I'm as far left as a person can be. Because the opposite of far left sounds cowardly.

As for your examples, I would suggest that's more the case of being decent rather than simply far left... and there's nothing to suggest that I would be treating trans people in the opposite (negative) manner. Which is the whole point I guess. Dismissing/insulting other posters, even by indirect means, is usual with your type of attitude online.

But, in any case, your intolerance, and lack of respect for others, means I have no interest in talking with you.

17-02-2020 12:22PM

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

You may have missed the bit where he's decided that we should have to have a debate about whether we should respect transgender people. Essentially he views them as second class citizens, not worthy of the rights of any other members of society. Treating any minority group as lesser is not right.

Reinterpret much?

done and done.

Wibbs · 17-02-2020 12:22PM

xckjoo wrote: »

Where did Klaz say stuff or act in a transphobic way? Genuinely curious a I didn't spot it.

If you're not 100% fully on board, you're apparently a phobic type.

20Cent wrote: »

If you are at work you expect your employer not to demean and bully you?
If you are out and about do you expect to be treated the same as everyone else?

Like I said common courtesy. Respect suggests a higher regard based on experience or foreknowledge.

20Cent · 17-02-2020 12:23PM

Why be anti trans if you aren't transphobic?
If one has nothing against them then why have a problem with them?

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 12:24PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Outcast. EG

What's to discuss? You say transphobic things, or you act in a transphobic way, then that's what you are. It's simple. Trying to make someone lesser in society, that's your outcast and that's a person that lacks basic human decency and then is shocked when they're called on it, that's an outcast.

Doesn't make sense to me anyway, though I get your general gist.

I'd go along with someone on the outside whose viewed as unsavoury. His views are unsavoury, and in terms of Irush society luckly he seems to be in the minority.

LineOfBeauty · 17-02-2020 12:25PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Reinterpret much?

done and done.

So then be clear. Should a transgender person have all the rights that you have?
Should a transgender person be treated with respect and human decency without any caveats?

20Cent · 17-02-2020 12:33PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Like I said common courtesy. Respect suggests a higher regard based on experience or foreknowledge.

So you are ok with using a persons preferred pronouns but don't want to respect them?
Fine meet people everyday we don't respect or even like but manage to keep it to ourselves, just do that.

Jordan Peterson interview on C4

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