Caroline Flack found dead

One eyed Jack · 16-02-2020 10:55AM

volchitsa wrote: »

I follow Graham Linehan, I haven't seen him being abusive to people, except if you consider that my post above is abusive. Which I would disagree with.

I agree that it's different from Caroline Flack for lots of reasons, but she was accused of a actual crime. Linehan's not. Not that it justifies her abuse either by the way. But nor is his abuse justified either.

I just think we need to do something about all the abuse that some people feel entitled to give out under cover of being pretty anonymous on Twitter and totally anonymous elsewhere. It's becoming a massive problem in today's society.

The point about Linehan is he's alive and the abuse is ongoing - so are we going to wring our hands every time someone ends up committing suicide while still excusing other examples as being different?

That’s exactly what we’re going to do, the same as human beings have always done throughout human history. Only the means through which people attack each other and tear each other down has changed, they’ve always felt entitled to portray themselves as morally superior to other people, or to portray other people as morally inferior, and feel entirely justified in doing so.

The problem is precisely that people don’t see their behaviour towards others as abusive, they feel their behaviour and their attitudes towards others are entirely justified, even when their behaviour and attitudes leads to someone making the decision to take their own life. You’ll still get people who claim the media had nothing to do with her death and ignore the fact that she wasn’t mentally well and had an ex who appears to have been fond of drama.

Boggles · 16-02-2020 10:56AM

volchitsa wrote: »

Nobody said she invented child cancer - you should put that mirror down.

If a 30-something male went out with a 17 year old girl, I personally find that unhealthy to say the least (think Roy Moore in the states).

Didn't take long for my point to proved.

Roy Moore.

Of the three women who accused him of sexual assault, Leigh Corfman said that Moore sexually assaulted her in 1979, when she was 14 and he was 32. Moore denied knowing or having contact with Corfman, although her mother confirmed their meeting.

Beverly Young Nelson said that, in December 1977 or January 1978 when she was 16, Moore sexually assaulted her. She said that when she fought him off, he eventually gave up, telling her, "You're just a child, I'm the district attorney. If you tell anyone about this no one will ever believe you."

KiKi III · 16-02-2020 10:58AM

Posters here act like it’s feminists who are obsessed with gender wars, but almost any thread about any woman on any topic gets a deluge of “if this was a man...” posts from male posters.

Give it a rest ffs. The woman is barely cold.

She was a flawed person but it didn’t have to come to this. There was opportunity for redemption.

RIP Caroline.

banie01 · 16-02-2020 11:03AM

razorblunt wrote: »

Fück Piers Morgan. His behaviour towards Megan Markle is equally as disgraceful.
He’s also doing all those things to Jameela Jamil now too.

But as far as Piers is concerned...
They're brown, and a bit uppity so it's ok.

Just to be clear, he is a gigantic wanker and funnily enough one of the creators and enablers of tabloid culture.
From his involvement in the S*n early in his career thru to phone hacking.
He is a dick!

volchitsa · 16-02-2020 11:03AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s exactly what we’re going to do

Well, speak for yourself is all I can say.

When one person's real life identity is available and known to all, and those doing the abusing are anonymous, either figuratively or very often literally, that's a very different thing to more traditional interpersonal conflicts where two people have a ding dong. This is something very different.

tritium · 16-02-2020 11:05AM

Darc19 wrote: »

The scum media (sun and daily muck) targeted her and bullied her.

Time for the media to have serious controls brought in.

Independent group here are going down the same scum path.

The mainstream and tabloid media have been happy to go the sewer press route for years, often facilitated by “official sources”:

Cliff Richard by the BBC
The post Belfast rape trial frenzy
Tulisa Contastavalos “sting” story
Michael LeVell

You could continue the list forever, and list plenty of tragic outcomes. If nothing happened before now what makes this different?

RIP and I hope she finds peace now. She had her demons but made the wrong choice to deal with them imho. The allegations against her were terrible and I admit would have very much turned me off her as a person but this is never the way out

volchitsa · 16-02-2020 11:06AM

Boggles wrote: »

Didn't take long for my point to proved.

Roy Moore.

How the heck does that prove your point? Styles was a 17 year old contestant on a show, she was someone one with power over the decisions that would likely make or break his career. It proves mine.

One eyed Jack · 16-02-2020 11:07AM

volchitsa wrote: »

Well, speak for yourself is all I can say.

When one person's real life identity is available and known to all, and those doing the abusing are anonymous, either figuratively or very often literally, that's a very different thing to more traditional interpersonal conflicts where two people have a ding dong. This is something very different.

I wasn’t speaking for anyone else.

What are you going to do then about all the anonymous stuff online that you don’t quantify as abuse, and someone else does? You’ll do nothing about it.

That’s not speaking for you, that’s a fact - you’re not going to do anything where you don’t see there’s a problem.

tritium · 16-02-2020 11:08AM

Larbre34 wrote: »

I cannot understand how there was still a case pending when the boyfriend withdrew cooperation with it. Do they not need the complainant on board to proceed? Had she entered a plea at the preliminary hearing?

Domestic violence are notorious for complainants withdrawing the complaint. There’s emotional pressure from a loved one and the level of control and coercion can be extreme. For male victims there’s added stigma. Generally if there’s other sufficient evidence it would be in the public interest (and the original complainants) to continue

Boggles · 16-02-2020 11:09AM

volchitsa wrote: »

How the heck does that prove your point? Styles was a 17 year old contestant on a show, she was someone one with power over the decisions that would likely make or break his career. It proves mine.

You are comparing a consensual relationship with an alleged serial rapist.

Is there something fúckíng wrong with you?

You are just validating what I said with each crazy fúckíng post.

volchitsa · 16-02-2020 11:14AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I wasn’t speaking for anyone else.

What are you going to do then about all the anonymous stuff online that you don’t quantify as abuse, and someone else does? You’ll do nothing about it.

That’s not speaking for you, that’s a fact - you’re not going to do anything where you don’t see there’s a problem.

I asked if people will go on excusing it, and you said they would. How do you get from that to there being a responsibility on me personally to put a stop to it?

As for what could be done, ending anonymity would make a huge difference. Most people only do it because they themselves are unknown - if they knew everyone could know who they really were that would stop much of the worst stuff immediately.

That's why I feel some sympathy for both Caroline Flack and Graham Linehan - they are in full view, and being attacked by mostly anonymous trolls. That's totally wrong IMO.

Galwayguy35 · 16-02-2020 11:16AM

Of course it's sad when someone takes their life but domestic abuse needs to be highlighted regardless of which gender is the abuser.

volchitsa · 16-02-2020 11:16AM

Boggles wrote: »

You are comparing a consensual relationship with an alleged serial rapist.

Is there something fúckíng wrong with you?

You are just validating what I said with each crazy fúckíng post.

An alleged rapist, whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

As for Harry Styles, who knows what he would say if he were asked - Google the story and you'll see Caroline Flack had plenty of occasions to give her version of the relationship, but there's nothing from him. Odd, that.

Gynoid · 16-02-2020 11:18AM

KiKi III wrote: »

Posters here act like it’s feminists who are obsessed with gender wars, but almost any thread about any woman on any topic gets a deluge of “if this was a man...” posts from male posters.

Give it a rest ffs. The woman is barely cold.

She was a flawed person but it didn’t have to come to this. There was opportunity for redemption.

RIP Caroline.

But it is true that if the headline was "man awaiting trial for smashing his girlfriend over the head while she slept commits suicide", there would be a very different response. Without being an idealogue on either side one can simply observe the fact of that. And perhaps explore why? I dont know why it is. Maybe it is some learned conditioning or prejudice that makes us respond differently? But it is worth noticing. Without anyone making nasty gender war insinuations, I agree.

It is also not merely a flaw to batter a person over the head while they sleep. That is some next level rage and violence. The rest in peace beautiful lady stuff does seem something reserved for the cult of glamorous celebrity worship, rather than what might be expressed for dowdy commoners, male or female. Also interesting as to why.

Boggles · 16-02-2020 11:19AM

volchitsa wrote: »

An alleged rapist, whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

As for Harry Styles, who knows what he would say if he were asked - Google the story and you'll see Caroline Flack had plenty of occasions to give her version of the relationship, but there's nothing from him. Odd, that.

It doesn't matter a fúck you absolute fúckíng lunatic, one was a legal consensual relationship and the other drove 14 year girls to the woods and molested them (allegedly).

But that's some how the same thing in your sick incel mind.

:rolleyes:

Mod-For this and other posts in this thread. One day ban.

Gynoid · 16-02-2020 11:22AM

Boggles wrote: »

It doesn't matter a fúck you absolute fúckíng lunatic, one was a legal consensual relationship and the other drove 14 year girls to the woods and molested them (allegedly).

But that's some how the same thing in your sick incel mind.

:rolleyes:

Yikes Boggles, have some camomile tea, man.

c montgomery · 16-02-2020 11:23AM

South park Britney Spears episode springs to mind.

Red tops and their readers have their pound of flesh.

Silentcorner · 16-02-2020 11:24AM

KiKi III wrote: »

Posters here act like it’s feminists who are obsessed with gender wars, but almost any thread about any woman on any topic gets a deluge of “if this was a man...” posts from male posters.

Give it a rest ffs. The woman is barely cold.

She was a flawed person but it didn’t have to come to this. There was opportunity for redemption.

RIP Caroline.

To be fair Feminists have thrust a "gender war" on all of us...what you have pointed out are just one of the many consequences of that...you are right though, it is infantile!

Hannibal_Smith · 16-02-2020 11:27AM

Boggles wrote: »

It doesn't matter a fúck you absolute fúckíng lunatic, one was a legal consensual relationship and the other drove 14 year girls to the woods and molested them (allegedly).

But that's some how the same thing in your sick incel mind.

:rolleyes:

Bit OTT there Boggles. Maybe remember that volchista is a person behind a screen.

This kind of highlights what people post online while hiding behind a keyboard.

volchitsa · 16-02-2020 11:28AM

Gynoid wrote: »

But it is true that if the headline was "man awaiting trial for smashing his girlfriend over the head while she slept commits suicide", there would be a very different response. Without being an idealogue on either side one can simply observe the fact of that. And perhaps explore why? I dont know why it is. Maybe it is some learned conditioning or prejudice that makes us respond differently? But it is worth noticing. Without anyone making nasty gender war insinuations, I agree.

It is also not merely a flaw to batter a person over the head while they sleep. That is some next level rage and violence. The rest in peace beautiful lady stuff does seem something reserved for the cult of glamorous celebrity worship, rather than what might be expressed for dowdy commoners, male or female. Also interesting as to why.

Any post that is based on "if this was a man" is not exploring anything, just having a go at women.

She was accused, just like a man would be, was going to be tried in court just like a man would be, got at least as much abuse as any man accused of domestic violence ever got (probably far more, but that may be related to her public profile, though there again, look at some of the famous men accused of domestic violence and there are plenty of (men?) ready to say "Oh but if it was a woman there wouldn't be all this outrage")

Making it into a gender war is really weird.

Richard Hillman · 16-02-2020 11:29AM

I was reading this thread with Sky Sports News on in the background. The Israel Folau story of him making his return to rugby league is on. He was hounded out of Rugby Union because of his religious views and now the likes of Sky Sports will follow him around to every ground this season, stoking up protests and trying to ensure he never works again.

It's genuine targetted harassment. Reporting the news is no longer a feature, they create the news.

One eyed Jack · 16-02-2020 11:29AM

volchitsa wrote: »

I asked if people will go on excusing it, and you said they would. How do you get from that to there being a responsibility on me personally to put a stop to it?

You hardly think it’s up to anyone else to address something that’s a problem for you, but they don’t see a problem. That’s why I asked you what you were going to do about it - you brought it up.

volchitsa wrote: »

As for what could be done, ending anonymity would make a huge difference. Most people only do it because they themselves are unknown - if they knew everyone could know who they really were that would stop much of the worst stuff immediately.

I think you overestimate the amount of fcuks people give about anonymity nowadays, especially when they think they’re in the right and they want their opinions to go viral. Ending anonymity wouldn’t make any difference whatsoever, it could easily go the other way as some of the most prolific trolls are those who aren’t anonymous, they’re famous for being trolls, like Linehan - there’s money to be made at it. The tabloid media have been making money trolling celebrities for decades, and ordinary people live to read the critics taking down a peg or two opinions of celebrities.

volchitsa wrote: »

That's why I feel some sympathy for both Caroline Flack and Graham Linehan - they are in full view, and being attacked by mostly anonymous trolls. That's totally wrong IMO.

Sure, I get that, whereas I feel no sympathy whatsoever for Linehan, but I think what’s going on and what went on from what I’ve been reading about Caroline Flack since yesterday is totally wrong and uncalled for. The level of condemnation is ridiculous. Because I didn’t follow her career all that closely, I wasn’t aware of what was going on, and those who were didn’t seem to have a problem with what they were doing.

That’s why it ultimately comes back to you again and asking what are you going to do about it since it’s a problem for you, but you think it’s not your responsibility to address it.

volchitsa · 16-02-2020 11:33AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You hardly think it’s up to anyone else to address something that’s a problem for you, but they don’t see a problem. That’s why I asked you what you were going to do about it - you brought it up.

That’s why it ultimately comes back to you again and asking what are you going to do about it since it’s a problem for you, but you think it’s not your responsibility to address it.

That's completely mad though - by that logic I can't post on a discussion site about, say, child sexual abuse unless I'm prepared to be a vigilante.

the_pen_turner · 16-02-2020 11:36AM

sashafierce wrote: »

See I think my reason for feeling such sympathy for Caroline is because of my own experience in a hellish relationship. I remember my ex telling me his mates thought I was mad but he never told them he cheated on me. So again anyone outside a relationship doesn't know the full story just like we don't here so we should be kinder towards the people involved.

why do you feel sympathy for the abuser . you were the victim in your situation. you should knw what its like to be in his situation. there are acusation of cheating about him but there are about caroline aswell from a previous relationship.

you are trying to justify domestic abuse and violance. thats wrong, and worse froma victim

the_pen_turner · 16-02-2020 11:38AM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I was reading this thread with Sky Sports News on in the background. The Israel Folau story of him making his return to rugby league is on. He was hounded out of Rugby Union because of his religious views and now the likes of Sky Sports will follow him around to every ground this season, stoking up protests and trying to ensure he never works again.

It's genuine targetted harassment. Reporting the news is no longer a feature, they create the news.

this is the problem with media. if they have no story they will make one up or twist what they have to say what they want.
the whole secter is rotten and need serious regulation and change

anewme · 16-02-2020 11:40AM

the_pen_turner wrote: »

this is the problem with media. if they have no story they will make one up or twist what they have to say what they want.
the whole secter is rotten and need serious regulation and change

Watch the program about Michael Barrymore and you'll see how the media twist things. They built him up, tore him down, but then decided he should be redeemed so switched the bias again. They had no interest in the truth.

sReq | uTeK · 16-02-2020 11:41AM

Is it sad that a young women who could see no other way out but for taking her life? 110%

However,people need to stop with nonsense of Flack v the media. This is the same Caroline flack who when the wind was at her sails was part of Love island one of the most toxic intrusive shows out there. She was all to happy to associated with the media prying into others lives when it suited her agenda and boosted ITV ratings. There have been two suicides of past love island contestants..I wonder of Caroline was an advocate at the time to suppress the media intrusion then...

This is not a snipe, but clearly being the business 20 years she knows the scrutiny you're going to be under when you so as extreme as smashing a bloody lamp over your sleeping boyfriends head.

Media her best friend riding high
Media her worst enemy when the wheels came off.

Sorry but thats showbiz, even more so when you're centre stage in the world that is TMZ etc..

Wibbs · 16-02-2020 11:42AM

banie01 wrote: »

But as far as Piers is concerned...
They're brown, and a bit uppity so it's ok.

Just to be clear, he is a gigantic wanker and funnily enough one of the creators and enablers of tabloid culture.
From his involvement in the S*n early in his career thru to phone hacking.
He is a dick!

I reckon the only person who would disagree with that is Piers himself. And he'd have his suspicions. A shabby little wanker all around. Someone who shows how shabby his area of the media is by being successful from being a vile individual.

Sounds like this Flack lass had her demons and no mistake. Batin' the head off a sleeping lover is not within the normal run of things for anyone and now this. So final, no hope of coming back from it, for her and those around her. Very sad.

One eyed Jack · 16-02-2020 11:43AM

volchitsa wrote: »

That's completely mad though - by that logic I can't post on a discussion site about, say, child sexual abuse unless I'm prepared to be a vigilante.

Yes, essentially.

And not only that but you would have people hound you and harass you for not doing enough about child sexual abuse, and they’d have your full details too.

So that’s why your whole removal of anonymity thing wouldn’t make a difference - the victims who would want to protect their identity couldn’t, and everyone would be at the mercy of the online mob.

Nobody would share your altruism, basically.

sReq | uTeK · 16-02-2020 11:44AM

anewme wrote: »

Watch the program about Michael Barrymore and you'll see how the media twist things. They built him up, tore him down, but then decided he should be redeemed so switched the bias again. They had no interest in the truth.

This is all irrelevant...the point here is that these celebs KNOW they are beholden to the media and sign up for it.

Caroline Flack found dead

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