What have we come to

Brendan Bendar · 13-02-2020 07:03PM

Tony EH wrote: »

The last 10 years maybe?

People feel absolutely no confidence in FFG and those parties don't do anything to instil any confidence either.

People are opting for choice C for a reason.

“And nobody is talking about quick fixes either. Certainly not the Shinners anyway, who've said that fixing the problems caused by the lackadaisical approaches by FFG will take a long time to repair. Nobody is under any illusion that these issues are going to get done overnight. I haven't heard anyone that I've talked to say that they believe that it's all going to be tickety boo in a few years.

But they know FFG aren't interested in even trying.“

How do they know that, pity people like you can’t stop yourselves from tossing out stuff like that.

You could say they are not doing enough, not taking the right options, anything under the sun.

But tossing out rubbish like they are “ people knowing they are not interested” with no back up points you out for what you are.

James Brown · 13-02-2020 07:19PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

“And nobody is talking about quick fixes either. Certainly not the Shinners anyway, who've said that fixing the problems caused by the lackadaisical approaches by FFG will take a long time to repair. Nobody is under any illusion that these issues are going to get done overnight. I haven't heard anyone that I've talked to say that they believe that it's all going to be tickety boo in a few years.

But they know FFG aren't interested in even trying.“

How do they know that, pity people like you can’t stop yourselves from tossing out stuff like that.

You could say they are not doing enough, not taking the right options, anything under the sun.

But tossing out rubbish like they are “ people knowing they are not interested” with no back up points you out for what you are.

You have to go by the facts concerning their time in office. They keep on the same track while the crises worsen, so they are either disinterested or monumentally ignorant. Either way, they've not changed nor looked like changing current policy.

Plumbthedepths · 13-02-2020 07:33PM

Listening to MM on the News now you'd swear he was not part of government for the last 4 years. Urgent action on housing and health, he's having a f**king laugh.

Professor Moriarty · 13-02-2020 07:35PM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Listening to MM on the News now you'd swear he was not part of government for the last 4 years. Urgent action on housing and health, he's having a f**king laugh.

Hopefully FF/FG/Greens will listen to the people and sort out housing and health. Then everyone will be happy. Problem solved.

Plumbthedepths · 13-02-2020 07:37PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Hopefully FF/FG/Greens will listen to the people and sort out housing and health. Then everyone will be happy. Problem solved.

Totally agree , if SF's surge achieves only one thing putting the fear of the electorate into FF/FG is prehaps the best outcome.

Brendan Bendar · 13-02-2020 07:51PM

Bowie wrote: »

You have to go by the facts concerning their time in office. They keep on the same track while the crises worsen, so they are either disinterested or monumentally ignorant. Either way, they've not changed nor looked like changing current policy.

What’ facts’ are those you talk about ?

My friend,forgive me if I suggest that you seem to think that, let’s say, the Health Service can be sorted by just deciding ‘Let’s sort out the Health Service.

You seem to think that that’s all that has to happen- no unions- no vested interests- no employees- no management - no public service....

Just wade in and take control and sort the lot out............:D

Fred Cryton · 13-02-2020 08:03PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Stagflation has continued in recent years, which means that while macroeconomic factors look good, peoples' quality of life (particularly those who are not homeowners) has been declining. Most people my age have far less disposable income now than they did four or five years ago, due entirely to increases in the cost of living combined with stagnating incomes.

i think a lot of the problem is the expectations millenials have. They seem to have this entitlement to live in a nice apartment in the centre of the city, probably because they grew up watching shows like Friends. Why should they? If others have more money and want to live there, they will do so. The rent reflects aggregate demand and aggregate supply for living in that area. I read that Niamh Horan in the independent complain about the cost of rent, turns out she's living in Grand Canal Dock! Why "must" a journalist live in one of the most expensive parts of town?

If i was a young millennial (and i'm in my 30's so i'm not that old), i would rent a room out in Kildare at 600 per month rather than try to pay 1800 per month for an apartment in the city centre. Save diligently the difference, month after month until i have my deposit. Then, buying in the city is relatively cheap compared to renting, there are plenty of apartments around for 250k to 350k. Two people earning the average wage of 40k could buy an apartment in Dublin city quite easily. But it requires discipline, saving. The millennials want a sugar daddy taxpayer to take care of them. That mentality needs to change!

GreeBo · 13-02-2020 08:17PM

So I get that people voted for SF because they are sick of the housing issue...what I don't yet understand is why they think SF will be any better based on the only thing we have to go by, I.e. Their manifesto
Can anyone who voted SF explain?

Airyfairy12 · 13-02-2020 08:28PM

Fred Cryton wrote: »

i think a lot of the problem is the expectations millenials have. They seem to have this entitlement to live in a nice apartment in the centre of the city, probably because they grew up watching shows like Friends. Why should they? If others have more money and want to live there, they will do so. The rent reflects aggregate demand and aggregate supply for living in that area. I read that Niamh Horan in the independent complain about the cost of rent, turns out she's living in Grand Canal Dock! Why "must" a journalist live in one of the most expensive parts of town?

If i was a young millennial (and i'm in my 30's so i'm not that old), i would rent a room out in Kildare at 600 per month rather than try to pay 1800 per month for an apartment in the city centre. Save diligently the difference, month after month until i have my deposit. Then, buying in the city is relatively cheap compared to renting, there are plenty of apartments around for 250k to 350k. Two people earning the average wage of 40k could buy an apartment in Dublin city quite easily. But it requires discipline, saving. The millennials want a sugar daddy taxpayer to take care of them. That mentality needs to change!

Youre completely wrong. "millenials" arent living with their parents and living in ****ty house shares moaning because they dont have an american sitcome lifestyle. You sound totally out of touch and ridiculous, you clearly havnt had half the problems most of the poorer working class young people have had to deal with. Allot of people cant actually rely on their parents to pay for things, its very difficult, with the current cost of literally everything to even begin to get on their feet.
Most of them are highly educated adults with no independence, missing out on development mile stones that middle classes and older generations get to experience, like learning how to drive and getting a car, moving out of their parents house, graduating school or college and actually being able to get a job after.

600 a month is allot of money, for allot of people in good jobs that's half their monthly wage. On top of rent, living outside the city, they then have travel costs. A return train from Maynooth into Dublin city costs about 12 euro adding nearly 300 euro ontop of your monthly rent. For people that can afford this, they have a very quality of life, they are literally working just to pay their rent and to get themselves to work.

Youre on another planet if you think the working class, educated young people are complaining because they dont live like 'friends' do on tv.

Where you raised in a bubble?

James Brown · 13-02-2020 08:40PM

GreeBo wrote: »

So I get that people voted for SF because they are sick of the housing issue...what I don't yet understand is why they think SF will be any better based on the only thing we have to go by, I.e. Their manifesto
Can anyone who voted SF explain?

The SD's, SF and FF promise to build social and affordable housing. FG do not intend to in any meaningful numbers.
How ever successful SD/SF/FF might be, it would be moving in a direction the people want.

Looks like MM is cool with another election. I hope he loses his seat.

Fred Cryton · 13-02-2020 08:42PM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

Youre completely wrong. "millenials" arent living with their parents and living in ****ty house shares moaning because they dont have an american sitcome lifestyle. You sound totally out of touch and ridiculous, you clearly havnt had half the problems most of the poorer working class young people have had to deal with. Allot of people cant actually rely on their parents to pay for things, its very difficult, with the current cost of literally everything to even begin to get on their feet.
Most of them are highly educated adults with no independence, missing out on development mile stones that middle classes and older generations get to experience, like learning how to drive and getting a car, moving out of their parents house, graduating school or college and actually being able to get a job after.

600 a month is allot of money, for allot of people in good jobs that's half their monthly wage. On top of rent, living outside the city, they then have travel costs. A return train from Maynooth into Dublin city costs about 12 euro adding nearly 300 euro ontop of your monthly rent. For people that can afford this, they have a very quality of life, they are literally working just to pay their rent and to get themselves to work.

Youre on another planet if you think the working class, educated young people are complaining because they dont live like 'friends' do on tv.

Where you raised in a bubble?

Again, you seem to think all of that is wrong and everyone, even those on minimum wage which is what you seem to be focusing on, should be living in the city centre in cheap accomodation.Why? And where's this magic land in Dublin city centre where we can build about 250,000 cheap as dirt homes to accomodate all those people who god forbid have to live in Kildare and Meath.

If you were living in New York you'd probably think it's an outrage you can't afford the rent in Manhattan. Well tough!

Brendan Bendar · 13-02-2020 08:45PM

Bowie wrote: »

The SD's, SF and FF promise to build social and affordable housing. FG do not intend to in any meaningful numbers.
How ever successful SD/SF/FF might be, it would be moving in a direction the people want.

Looks like MM is cool with another election. I hope he loses his seat.

Any meaningful number?

https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-home-builds-4559654-Mar2019/

nacho libre · 13-02-2020 08:49PM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Listening to MM on the News now you'd swear he was not part of government for the last 4 years. Urgent action on housing and health, he's having a f**king laugh.

It sound simliar to what he was up to around 10 years ago. He is some operator:D

James Brown · 13-02-2020 08:49PM

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Any meaningful number?

https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-home-builds-4559654-Mar2019/

Social and affordable builds. Not build to lease/rent or redecorating those already there. Read the article. FG tended to included every build by everyone and try claim it as some 'we' numbers.

Airyfairy12 · 13-02-2020 09:06PM

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Again, you seem to think all of that is wrong and everyone, even those on minimum wage which is what you seem to be focusing on, should be living in the city centre in cheap accomodation.Why? And where's this magic land in Dublin city centre where we can build about 250,000 cheap as dirt homes to accomodate all those people who god forbid have to live in Kildare and Meath.

If you were living in New York you'd probably think it's an outrage you can't afford the rent in Manhattan. Well tough!

I dont think they should be living in the city center at all, I think that people should be able to get by if theyre working, regardless of where theyre living. Im not suggesting Dublin city center should be cheap either but currently, its more expensive than London and Paris, Dublin hardly has much going for it when compared to other European cities yet its one of the most expensive places in Europe, why?

One main reason why so many people are desperate to live in Dublin is because thats where the jobs are and public transport is ridiculously expensive and unreliable with trains and buses running once an hour from commuter towns into Dublin city and often theyre late or sometimes dont show up all.
Also, people dont like having to travel 2 or 3 hours each way to work everyday.

You seem to be under the impression that people dont move into commuter towns and areas around Dublin, they do, and these are the problems theyre faced with. Just to add, its not just Dublin where cost of rent have sky rocketed, its country wide. 10 years I ago I was living in a flat share paying 250 for a room in a nice enough 2 bed apartment in a small town, it cost 550 a month for the entire apartment. That room, in that same apartment would now cost me 600 euro a month. That is insane and shouldnt be justified and working people shouldnt be expected to pay it. This is why working people in their 30's are living with their parents and will never own a home.

I focus on minimum wage because its what allot of people who are working have to live off. If everything is priced just in reach for middle classes, where does that leave everyone else? We have created a society of working poor, working homeless, homeless families and children. The middle class cant see past the nose on their face, they look down on working class people and go on as if theyre acting as though theyre entitled. How can they ever get ahead when everything is against them?
We now have an entire generation of adults with very little future prospects and will be either renting till their elderly or will remain living with their parents unable to start an adult, independent life for themselves and when they try to fight for a better future theyre shouted down by middle class people and told that theyre entitled. What is anyone earning below 40,000 supposed to do? Which is far from minimum wage.

James Brown · 13-02-2020 09:19PM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Totally agree , if SF's surge achieves only one thing putting the fear of the electorate into FF/FG is prehaps the best outcome.

It won't happen. Either SF will get more or FF/FG will be back as brassy as ever. What's the lesson? We nearly blew it, but we're okay now? They never learned before because they know there's always next go.

Cupatae · 13-02-2020 09:21PM

Fred Cryton wrote: »

i think a lot of the problem is the expectations millenials have. They seem to have this entitlement to live in a nice apartment in the centre of the city, probably because they grew up watching shows like Friends. Why should they? If others have more money and want to live there, they will do so. The rent reflects aggregate demand and aggregate supply for living in that area. I read that Niamh Horan in the independent complain about the cost of rent, turns out she's living in Grand Canal Dock! Why "must" a journalist live in one of the most expensive parts of town?

If i was a young millennial (and i'm in my 30's so i'm not that old), i would rent a room out in Kildare at 600 per month rather than try to pay 1800 per month for an apartment in the city centre. Save diligently the difference, month after month until i have my deposit. Then, buying in the city is relatively cheap compared to renting, there are plenty of apartments around for 250k to 350k. Two people earning the average wage of 40k could buy an apartment in Dublin city quite easily. But it requires discipline, saving. The millennials want a sugar daddy taxpayer to take care of them. That mentality needs to change!

Plenty of apartments a-****in-partments for 250k to 350 k and you don't see the problem ? Are you sure you aren't entitled ? Or got handed money that you think these goals realistic , to put that in perspective for 350k+ you are hitting mansion territory most places else in the country..

The prices are mad but the people that see no problem with em are madder

Amirani · 13-02-2020 09:29PM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

600 a month is allot of money, for allot of people in good jobs that's half their monthly wage.

If €600 per month is half their monthly wages, they're not in good jobs...

Airyfairy12 · 13-02-2020 09:31PM

Cupatae wrote: »

Plenty of apartments a-****in-partments for 250k to 350 k and you don't see the problem ? Are you sure you aren't entitled ? Or got handed money that you think these goals realistic , to put that in perspective for 350k+ you are hitting mansion territory most places else in the country..

The prices are mad but the people that see no problem with em are madder

350k is now the average cost of small houses outside Dublin in Commuter towns.
The high cost of Dublin has increased the cost of all areas around Dublin.

Cheaper to buy homes are mostly in the west and midlands where there are no jobs.

Airyfairy12 · 13-02-2020 09:36PM

Amirani wrote: »

If €600 per month is half their monthly wages, they're not in good jobs...

When I say 'good job' I mean jobs that require a higher level of education, many of which pay minimum wage. Which brings me back to my original point of how educated working people cant afford to live.

facehugger99 · 13-02-2020 09:37PM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

I dont think they should be living in the city center at all, I think that people should be able to get by if theyre working, regardless of where theyre living. Im not suggesting Dublin city center should be cheap either but currently, its more expensive than London and Paris, Dublin hardly has much going for it when compared to other European cities yet its one of the most expensive places in Europe, why?

One main reason why so many people are desperate to live in Dublin is because thats where the jobs are and public transport is ridiculously expensive and unreliable with trains and buses running once an hour from commuter towns into Dublin city and often theyre late or sometimes dont show up all.
Also, people dont like having to travel 2 or 3 hours each way to work everyday.

You seem to be under the impression that people dont move into commuter towns and areas around Dublin, they do, and these are the problems theyre faced with. Just to add, its not just Dublin where cost of rent have sky rocketed, its country wide. 10 years I ago I was living in a flat share paying 250 for a room in a nice enough 2 bed apartment in a small town, it cost 550 a month for the entire apartment. That room, in that same apartment would now cost me 600 euro a month. That is insane and shouldnt be justified and working people shouldnt be expected to pay it. This is why working people in their 30's are living with their parents and will never own a home.

I focus on minimum wage because its what allot of people who are working have to live off. If everything is priced just in reach for middle classes, where does that leave everyone else? We have created a society of working poor, working homeless, homeless families and children. The middle class cant see past the nose on their face, they look down on working class people and go on as if theyre acting as though theyre entitled. How can they ever get ahead when everything is against them?
We now have an entire generation of adults with very little future prospects and will be either renting till their elderly or will remain living with their parents unable to start an adult, independent life for themselves and when they try to fight for a better future theyre shouted down by middle class people and told that theyre entitled. What is anyone earning below 40,000 supposed to do? Which is far from minimum wage.

I think you make some good points and the issues you raised need to be thought about and solved but SF are not the solution.

Airyfairy12 · 13-02-2020 09:49PM

facehugger99 wrote: »

I think you make some good points and the issues you raised need to be thought about and solved but SF are not the solution.

Theyre the only option as far as im concerned. I dont always agree with them, particularly with their such strong focus on a united Ireland and their manifesto is far fetched without a doubt but FF and FG are not the way to go.
All they care about is making the economy look good and running the country like it's a business, lining their pockets and the pockets of other rich people while we suffer for it.
Another party has to be given the chance and Sinn fein are the only ones willing to take it on and the only ones who actually seem to be listening to people.

whodafunk · 13-02-2020 09:51PM

I have serious grave concerns over SF taking over power. I understand people wanted change I get that but feel this was more a protest vote.

Airyfairy12 · 13-02-2020 10:03PM

whodafunk wrote: »

I have serious grave concerns over SF taking over power. I understand people wanted change I get that but feel this was more a protest vote.

It's not a protest vote.

I remember years ago when the crash happened my dad asked my granny, who was in her 80's at the time, why everyone keeps voting in these same parties. My granny said that she voted for them and when my dad asked her why, she said she voted for them because thats who she's always voted for . That is the only reason why those parties keep getting voted in, its basically tradition. They have offered nothing to any normal person in this country, they have put us in a terrible homeless crisis, our minimum wage is well below the living standard, our public healthy system is so bad its actually terrifying. FF and FG dont care about normal working people. They provide enough standard of living to keep the middle class happy enough to keep voting them in while they continue running this country like its a business for them to profit off.

Dont patronise younger voters by suggesting their voting out of spite, theyre smarter than you give them credit for and they have their own good reasons for voting Sinn fein.

GreeBo · 13-02-2020 10:06PM

Bowie wrote: »

Social and affordable builds. Not build to lease/rent or redecorating those already there. Read the article. FG tended to included every build by everyone and try claim it as some 'we' numbers.

SF are promising 10k per year for the next 10 years.
FG are promising 12.5k per year for ever.

https://www.sinnfein.ie/housing
https://www.finegael.ie/our-policies/a-housing-system-with-the-citizen-at-the-centre/

Cupatae · 13-02-2020 11:31PM

Airyfairy12 wrote: »

When I say 'good job' I mean jobs that require a higher level of education, many of which pay minimum wage. Which brings me back to my original point of how educated working people cant afford to live.

They aren't even that cheap in the west either you d still be aiming for 150-250k for something decent, it's crazyness , and sad really when you think about it people are boxed into living at home with a very steep up hill battle to get there own home,

Not everyone lives in Dublin either, and the jobs they are saying aren't very good , are the majority of jobs

But even if someone manages to get the house get the child care afford the car if by some miracle they are able to do that... They have little to no room to even enjoy life .

I can't wait to hear the retort of people..."they should get better jobs " please point out said jobs that the majority can get!

jmayo · 13-02-2020 11:50PM

Tony EH wrote: »

We have, frankly, ridiculous situations facing far too many people in this country, with regards to basic living requirements. A modest house will set you back a criminal amount of money that hocks you into debt until you're an OAP and the alternative is extortionate rents by a cartel of private landlords who can up the rent price every 12 months if they wish. We may have so called "full employment", but jobs (many of which are mickey mouse) are transitory these days and simply cannot be counted on. You can, literally, be in work one month and out the next on the whim of the employer. And all the while you can watch granny die on a trolley in A+E.

Something needs to change. We need to move away from this idea that there's "endless" growth, constantly pushing a situation until it blows and we all get thrown back to square one. We cannot keep going around and around like this.

Endless growth is what the capitalist western world is based on.
And it is the very reason that the left wing, sinn fein very much included, gives why we should import millions of people into Europe.
Or are people now refuting the line "we need them to pay for our pensions".
:rolleyes:

Tony EH wrote: »

I don't think this is the case. The electorate want stability, not boom and bust, which doesn't benefit the vast majority of them. The electorate want to be able to plan their lives, which a lot cannot do because their futures are so grim at the moment. A lot of them won't own their own home, will be in a constant state of flux in in private renting, will lose their job(s) at some point and ultimately be beholden to a situation that's absolutely out of their control.

People I've talked to are sick of this. They don't want this merry go round of boom and bust any more. It doesn't help them.

FFS we don't have a merry go round of boom and bust.
Ireland didn't have a bloody boom until the 90s and then it was tech based.
There was slight downturn for tech based people due to dotcom bubble burst and then boom resumed in earnest into bubble from 2002 onwards to 2007/2008.

We don't have boom again, we had a recovery of sorts.
Hell it is argued almost every other day by likes of sinn fein about how the good times aren't shared.
Dublin has boomed for some, but it definitely hasn't for those at bottom of property ladder or those renting.
And it hasn't really boomed for most of the country as has been evidenced by all the farmer protests.

Lack of housing, high accommodation demand leading to high prices does not equate to a boom.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Hopefully FF/FG/Greens will listen to the people and sort out housing and health. Then everyone will be happy. Problem solved.

AHH FFS not this simplistic view about solving health.
No one can sort out health unless they have the backing of all the people in this country.

And do know what that entails ?
It means you and everyone else, the left leaning parties, the centre parties, the fooking lot, allow the government take on the unions in the health service, take on the representative bodies and cut the excess numbers, cut the perks, fire the non performing staff and fire people for incompetence.

If FG in the morning said we are firing 10,000 admin staff and 2,000 managers which political parties would be the first out of the box wailing about what awful stuff they were doing.

Hell the FG minister would be lynched by his own back benchers before PBP, sinn fein or the SDs got their hands on him.

The civil servants in Dept of health will never want to take on their fellow public servants because they could be next in the firing line.

The problem in the health system are the people employed within it.

Note I didn't say working in it.:(

And yes we know that there are lots of hardworking, especially front line, staff.
But by christ there are a lot of lazy useless fooks, the "it's not my job" types.

FarmerBrowne · 13-02-2020 11:55PM

whodafunk wrote: »

I have serious grave concerns over SF taking over power. I understand people wanted change I get that but feel this was more a protest vote.

And to think I was laughing at the brits and the yanks for what they did in 2016, we have joined them now in ludicrous voting.

Airyfairy12 · 14-02-2020 12:07AM

FarmerBrowne wrote: »

And to think I was laughing at the brits and the yanks for what they did in 2016, we have joined them now in ludicrous voting.

Only the difference is the UK and US voted for hard right wing governments. Ireland is gone the complete opposite by majority of people under 40 voting left.

How is voting Sinn fein ludicrous but voting for the same two parties that destroyed the country over and over again in anyway sane or logical?

jmayo · 14-02-2020 12:11AM

There is huge amount of comment on all these threads about our housing problems.
And loads of promises that sinn fein would do something more to solve it.

I have been chasing a certain shinner around here to elaborate and their one comment has been that the Austrians can do it.

Except of course they didn't point out that Austrians build apartments in sometimes highrises for social and affordable housing.

And that leads me to point that a lot of Irish people need to start copping on that the days are gone when they can buy a house in or near city centres, especially Dublin.
Authorities, planners and politicians are going to have to start building upwards for accommodation and people that want to live in city centres are going to have to accept that they will live in apartments.

A lot of people think that they should be able to buy where their parents bought or somewhere similar, but they need to realise Ireland is a much changed place from the time their parents bought.
Their parents were able to buy because they were working in a country that was an economic backwater and the population was a hell of a lot less.
The number of people with good well paying jobs back in the 70s or 80s in Ireland was not large.
Hell the number of people with any job was much less.
Nowadays thanks to our much improved economy the numbers competing for the limited supply is much bigger.
Hence the old argument about nowadays Gardai, nurses and teachers not being able to buy like their predecessors.
Back in the old days they weren't competing against scores of software engineers, marketing types, service delivery managers, accountants, business analysts, etc.

And yes we need public built and controlled housing.
The thatcherite let the market provide it simply does not work and offers no long term guarantee.
Speaking of which long term rentals need to become the norm, not the year long lease cr**.

Authorities, planners and politicians are going to have to seriously plan the development of other hubs outside of Dublin.

These mean long term fooking planning which is something we as a state are fooking terrible at.

And when we do decide to build housing it should have services built before the accommodation is built.
Other countries manage to do it and it is fooking time we started doing it rather than adding schools, medical centres, community centres, parks, playgorunds, etc after the fact.

No more fooking sweet deals for developers where they stick up houses/apartments and leave a waste land around it.

Oh and total revamp of our building regulatory authorities.

What have we come to

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