What have we come to

FrancieBrady · 13-02-2020 01:23AM

markodaly wrote: »

Still does not give one right to murder women and children Francie.
Whatabout away regardless.

No it doesn't. And nobody said any of it was right.

But do any of you ever stop to actually think what it was like to be a second class citizen (at best) and treated like a dog because of your religion?Your countrymen and women took it for 80 odd years and when they couldn't take it anymore and peacefully protested they were beaten off the streets and then shot down in those streets.

The lid came off, as even Harold Wilson knew it would. There isn't a conflict/war in the world that didn't escalate from that point.

Bill 2.0 · 13-02-2020 01:27AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No it doesn't. And nobody said any of it was right.

But do any of you ever stop to actually think what it was like to be a second class citizen (at best) and treated like a dog because of your religion?Your countrymen and women took it for 80 odd years and when they couldn't take it anymore and peacefully protested they were beaten off the streets and then shot down in those streets.

The lid came off, as even Harold Wilson knew it would. There isn't a conflict/war in the world that didn't escalate from that point.

They weren't/aren't our countrymen. Northern Ireland is a seperate country that is part of the UK.

Get the ****ing train or bus down to Ireland if you want to be Irish.

quokula · 13-02-2020 01:28AM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The fact that the economy is doing well and we've high employment shows their ideas do not work for the country but they kept going.

Most people would take a strong economy and high employment as signs that their ideas do work?

markodaly · 13-02-2020 01:29AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No it doesn't. And nobody said any of it was right.

But ...

You were doing well up to the word 'But'.

When you write the word 'but', you are making excuses.

'I'm not racist but...' :rolleyes:

Bill 2.0 · 13-02-2020 01:32AM

quokula wrote: »

Most people would take a strong economy and high employment as signs that their ideas do work?

.2% of the population living in state-funded hotel rooms waiting for their free forever homes and things costing money in one of the most wealthy countries in the world is apparently the worst thing ever.

We need more free stuff that "de rich" are going to pay for!

FrancieBrady · 13-02-2020 01:33AM

Bill 2.0 wrote: »

They weren't/aren't our countrymen. Northern Ireland is a seperate country that is part of the UK.

Get the ****ing train or bus down to Ireland if you want to be Irish.

I'm sure there are people who will accept payment for giving you a little bit of attention.

FrancieBrady · 13-02-2020 01:38AM

markodaly wrote: »

You were doing well up to the word 'But'.

When you write the word 'but', you are making excuses.

'I'm not racist but...' :rolleyes:

Easy and tritely said for somebody residing comfortably in state that was born because people made blood sacrifices. 'I'm alright jackism' of the highest order.

I despise that hypocrisy.

markodaly · 13-02-2020 01:44AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Easy and tritely said for somebody residing comfortably in state that was born because people made blood sacrifices. 'I'm alright jackism' of the highest order.

I despise that hypocrisy.

You dont know anything about my personal circumstances firstly.

And it may be news to you Francie, but not every Catholic or Nationalist in the north joined an illegal paramilitary organisation that went on to kill scores of innocent women, children and babies.
In fact the vast vast vast majority didn't.

John Hume grew up on the bogside and didnt order anyone to be murdered.

Idbatterim · 13-02-2020 01:44AM

Bill 2.0 wrote: »

It's only about 1 in 5 people that rent in this country and that includes people paying a pittance of rent for social housing.

The media told you housing was a huge issue and you believeed it hook, line and sinker.

How many adults are trapped at home though , who would like to buy or rent ?

FrancieBrady · 13-02-2020 01:58AM

markodaly wrote: »

You dont know anything about my personal circumstances firstly.

And it may be news to you Francie, but not every Catholic or Nationalist in the north joined an illegal paramilitary organisation that went on to kill scores of innocent women, children and babies.
In fact the vast vast vast majority didn't.

John Hume grew up on the bogside and didnt order anyone to be murdered.

Hume was as much a part of the reason the lid came off as he was a part of the solution.
The tragedy is that it took 40 years and over 3000 deaths to find a way to put the lid back on.

Bill 2.0 · 13-02-2020 02:06AM

Idbatterim wrote: »

How many adults are trapped at home though , who would like to buy or rent ?

I don't know. Why don't you tell me?

Or should we just base political policy on some speculative number of people maybe still living with their parents?

It's almost as if the "crises" facing our country straight up don't exist outside of media reports.

markodaly · 13-02-2020 02:17AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Hume was as much a part of the reason the lid came off ..

Astonshing revisionism there Francie, even from you.

Hume didnt murder or order the murder of anyone. The lid came off because some men wanted to play soldier for 'Ireland's Freedom'.

Bill 2.0 · 13-02-2020 02:25AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

a way to put the lid back on.

In a stunning turn of events, the way to put the lid back on was to sit around a table and talk to each other like normal human beings.

Cupatae · 13-02-2020 02:28AM

markodaly wrote: »

Astonshing revisionism there Francie, even from you.

Hume didnt murder or order the murder of anyone. The lid came off because some men wanted to play soldier for 'Ireland's Freedom'.

It's amazing how you equate fighting back as "playing soldier" you do realize what was happening at the time to Catholics ?

They didn't just wake up one morning and go "dya know what paddy we LL go bomb some children and Innocents for the laugh" I believe alot of the bombings came with warnings aswell , again let's remember why these events were happening in the first place.

Innocents die in every conflict alot of the time not on purpose, just ask the UK and the us as they butcher there way thru the middle East , Trump doing assassinations like something straight outta call of duty.

Cupatae · 13-02-2020 02:31AM

Bill 2.0 wrote: »

In a stunning turn of events, the way to put the lid back on was to sit around a table and talk to each other like normal human beings.

Took alot for some of them to be considered human , and to even get a chance to sit at the table "No Irish no dogs no blacks" signs and what not

Bill 2.0 · 13-02-2020 02:35AM

Cupatae wrote: »

Trump doing assassinations like something straight outta call of duty.

You kill the enemies of your state, it's a fairly basic concept.

In the NI context the enemies of the state were the dip****s who were willing to murder people because they wanted to be Irish whilst living in Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK.

They could have easily left to go live in Ireland but they decided to murder people instead and NI is still part of the UK despite their "armed struggle".

Cupatae · 13-02-2020 02:37AM

Bill 2.0 wrote: »

You kill the enemies of your state, it's a fairly basic concept.

In the NI context the enemies of the state were the dip****s who were willing to murder people because they wanted to be Irish whilst living in Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK.

They could have easily left to go live in Ireland but they decided to murder people instead and NI is still part of the UK despite their "armed struggle".

I actually can't tell if you are trolling with that post or not

Bill 2.0 · 13-02-2020 02:43AM

Cupatae wrote: »

I actually can't tell if you are trolling with that post or not

I'm not.

There was no wall stopping these people from leaving and the grown-ups who were in charge would have only been delighted to see them **** off but they decided that murder was their only recourse.

The Republic doesn't want NI because it is full of borderline retarded, dangerous idiots who we have zero in common with.

3 years without a government and it made zero difference because the UK is the responsible adult in the room that keeps the place from reverting to the stone age.

gormdubhgorm · 13-02-2020 03:29AM

holyhead wrote: »

I'm not able to share the link but it is worth reading a blog my Shane Paul O'Doherty entitled "Mary Lou MacDonald-No Links To The Ira?". If you punch it into google it will come up as the first link to click on.
Very interesting reading. I appreciate that O'Doherty is very much anti SF having once been in the IRA. But having been on the inside he has a better idea than most how SF/IRA operate.

I found it -

https://irishpeaceprocess.blog/2019/02/19/mary-lou-mcdonald-no-links-to-the-ira/

Obviously the author does have an axe to grind with SF/IRA. But if you break the observations down he makes very valid points.

Plus some of those images would be comical, if they were not so serious.

H block escape night 10 quid in!

I honesttly thought it was a photo-shopped skit

Then it turns out it was a real thing only two years ago!

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Mv6xzBL4ts0J:https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/unionist-anger-at-republican-h-block-escape-night-immoral-attempt-to-profit-from-violence-36786044.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

This from the party who want to forget the past and move on....during the ROI election

The fact that Shane Doherty -
(in the Mary Lou McDonald – No Links to the IRA? - article)
Mentions a number of these events, and that someone has to manage all this IRA money. Laying down arms but not destroying the structure already there, makes logical sense.

It is interesting that Dessie Ellis is classed as untouchable with his 90k, and this was proven only recently when Mary Lou did not publicly rebuke him for his election antics.
--

Doherty does make many good points in the article, the basic grooming of Mary Lou to be the more acceptable face of the outfit for the ROI.

I noticed that myself it was obvious to anyone watching SF over the last few decades.
It has always seemed transparent to me (for the last few years) what the plan was once they started the feminisation of SF and the dual strategy two female leaders. One a face for NI and respectable to the electorate, and the same for the ROI. Basically a simple re-branding of SF make them look a bit fluffier, friendly.

Even my own elderly mother who is an avid watcher of Virgin Media and politics shows - has claimed she thinks "xyz SF girl is 'good' even though she is with SF!" (says she):D

On the other hand she would visibly recoil when she saw the more stereotypical type of SF man like O'Snodaigh. So it clearly is working at all levels.

It might be ruined occasionally by an O'Snodaigh, Dessie Eillis or David Cullinane. But by and large the strategy is sound.

I have to give it too SF they have brass necks, and are great marketeers they really know how to develop a brand and play it from all levels.

Make the present day talk fluffy and light for the ROI - smiles, change etc rarely mention the UI.

While in NI have constant reminders of the past.
How the struggle was 'won' etc so it distracts from the austerity measures SF imposed in NI.

The two different jurisdictions are also handy as there is a disconnect between the ROI and NI. It is possible for SF to literally get away with murder, as few of the Irish electorate care about them up there in the ROI.

Even Mary Lou herself was at pains to point out the election is not in NI it is in the ROI - hoping people stop digging and that convenient partition line is drawn. And that she is from Dublin etc.

You have to admire the strategy and how it worked.

Tony EH · 13-02-2020 04:23AM

Bill 2.0 wrote: »

In a stunning turn of events, the way to put the lid back on was to sit around a table and talk to each other like normal human beings.

You do know that this wouldn't have happened had it not been for the IRA campaign or the Shinners getting involved in dialogue.

James Brown · 13-02-2020 04:36AM

quokula wrote: »

Most people would take a strong economy and high employment as signs that their ideas do work?

Point is everything they say is great doesn't seem to help as crises get worse, but they didn't amend it or try change they just kept going.
A strong economy didn't help. With that and lots of jobs we should not be in a series of worsening crises.

James Brown · 13-02-2020 04:39AM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I found it -

https://irishpeaceprocess.blog/2019/02/19/mary-lou-mcdonald-no-links-to-the-ira/

Obviously the author does have an axe to grind with SF/IRA. But if you break the observations down he makes very valid points.

Plus some of those images would be comical, if they were not so serious.

H block escape night 10 quid in!

I honesttly thought it was a photo-shopped skit

Then it turns out it was a real thing only two years ago!

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Mv6xzBL4ts0J:https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/unionist-anger-at-republican-h-block-escape-night-immoral-attempt-to-profit-from-violence-36786044.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

This from the party who want to forget the past and move on....during the ROI election

The fact that Shane Doherty -
(in the Mary Lou McDonald – No Links to the IRA? - article)
Mentions a number of these events, and that someone has to manage all this IRA money. Laying down arms but not destroying the structure already there, makes logical sense.

It is interesting that Dessie Ellis is classed as untouchable with his 90k, and this was proven only recently when Mary Lou did not publicly rebuke him for his election antics.
--

Doherty does make many good points in the article, the basic grooming of Mary Lou to be the more acceptable face of the outfit for the ROI.

I noticed that myself it was obvious to anyone watching SF over the last few decades.
It has always seemed transparent to me (for the last few years) what the plan was once they started the feminisation of SF and the dual strategy two female leaders. One a face for NI and respectable to the electorate, and the same for the ROI. Basically a simple re-branding of SF make them look a bit fluffier, friendly.

Even my own elderly mother who is an avid watcher of Virgin Media and politics shows - has claimed she thinks "xyz SF girl is 'good' even though she is with SF!" (says she):D

On the other hand she would visibly recoil when she saw the more stereotypical type of SF man like O'Snodaigh. So it clearly is working at all levels.

It might be ruined occasionally by an O'Snodaigh, Dessie Eillis or David Cullinane. But by and large the strategy is sound.

I have to give it too SF they have brass necks, and are great marketeers they really know how to develop a brand and play it from all levels.

Make the present day talk fluffy and light for the ROI - smiles, change etc rarely mention the UI.

While in NI have constant reminders of the past.
How the struggle was 'won' etc so it distracts from the austerity measures SF imposed in NI.

The two different jurisdictions are also handy as there is a disconnect between the ROI and NI. It is possible for SF to literally get away with murder, as few of the Irish electorate care about them up there in the ROI.

Even Mary Lou herself was at pains to point out the election is not in NI it is in the ROI - hoping people stop digging and that convenient partition line is drawn. And that she is from Dublin etc.

You have to admire the strategy and how it worked.

Are you doing a one man show IRA retrospective?

lawrencesummers · 13-02-2020 08:25AM

The world is full of political parties that have their origins in conflict and wartime. South Africa, Spain, Jamaica etc etc.

Is it not time that SF are given the opportunity to establish themselves as a present day political party that are allowed to move on from their past while being cognizant of their history?

Sure some members have a difficult history, and they don’t help themselves by singing songs about the RA, but singing songs is a lot different to physical actions

Nelson Mandela was a terrorist for a long time by US standards. Almost half The founding fathers of the USA were slave owners. People change, political ideologies evolve.

I for one will judge SF on their policies and the delivery of them, not their past, their links to the past or the songs their people sing. Just their ability to govern should they be in that position.

holyhead · 13-02-2020 09:16AM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I found it -

https://irishpeaceprocess.blog/2019/02/19/mary-lou-mcdonald-no-links-to-the-ira/

Obviously the author does have an axe to grind with SF/IRA. But if you break the observations down he makes very valid points.

Plus some of those images would be comical, if they were not so serious.

H block escape night 10 quid in!

I honesttly thought it was a photo-shopped skit

Then it turns out it was a real thing only two years ago!

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Mv6xzBL4ts0J:https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/unionist-anger-at-republican-h-block-escape-night-immoral-attempt-to-profit-from-violence-36786044.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

This from the party who want to forget the past and move on....during the ROI election

The fact that Shane Doherty -
(in the Mary Lou McDonald – No Links to the IRA? - article)
Mentions a number of these events, and that someone has to manage all this IRA money. Laying down arms but not destroying the structure already there, makes logical sense.

It is interesting that Dessie Ellis is classed as untouchable with his 90k, and this was proven only recently when Mary Lou did not publicly rebuke him for his election antics.
--

Doherty does make many good points in the article, the basic grooming of Mary Lou to be the more acceptable face of the outfit for the ROI.

I noticed that myself it was obvious to anyone watching SF over the last few decades.
It has always seemed transparent to me (for the last few years) what the plan was once they started the feminisation of SF and the dual strategy two female leaders. One a face for NI and respectable to the electorate, and the same for the ROI. Basically a simple re-branding of SF make them look a bit fluffier, friendly.

Even my own elderly mother who is an avid watcher of Virgin Media and politics shows - has claimed she thinks "xyz SF girl is 'good' even though she is with SF!" (says she):D

On the other hand she would visibly recoil when she saw the more stereotypical type of SF man like O'Snodaigh. So it clearly is working at all levels.

It might be ruined occasionally by an O'Snodaigh, Dessie Eillis or David Cullinane. But by and large the strategy is sound.

I have to give it too SF they have brass necks, and are great marketeers they really know how to develop a brand and play it from all levels.

Make the present day talk fluffy and light for the ROI - smiles, change etc rarely mention the UI.

While in NI have constant reminders of the past.
How the struggle was 'won' etc so it distracts from the austerity measures SF imposed in NI.

The two different jurisdictions are also handy as there is a disconnect between the ROI and NI. It is possible for SF to literally get away with murder, as few of the Irish electorate care about them up there in the ROI.

Even Mary Lou herself was at pains to point out the election is not in NI it is in the ROI - hoping people stop digging and that convenient partition line is drawn. And that she is from Dublin etc.

You have to admire the strategy and how it worked.

I find his blog really interesting. He knows how the SF/IRA works more than most. I find the blog makes you think about things in a different light. Yes he has an axe to grind but he makes good points in his blogs. Glad you found it!

FrancieBrady · 13-02-2020 09:36AM

markodaly wrote: »

Astonshing revisionism there Francie, even from you.

Hume didnt murder or order the murder of anyone. The lid came off because some men wanted to play soldier for 'Ireland's Freedom'.

The dangers of not knowing your history.

You know that Hume's idea of taking people out onto the streets was the key act that brought the decades of oppression, gerrymandering and inequality to the boil?

When you bring something to the boil...the lid generally comes off.

Hume and the people he led were the problem in NI in the 60's just as much as the Unionists were. Add in criminally inept British and Irish governments and you had a heady mix. The IRA were not interested and were almost defunct in the early to middle 60's.
What would have happened had Hume listened to his many detractors and stayed off the streets?
When you let the lid come off, it can sadly morph into something else and in Ireland's case, some identified the root cause of the problem as partition (and I cannot argue with them nor as it happens could John Hume) and a continued occupation of this island. When Hume recognised that all his initiatives were never going to work...Sunningdale - The Anglo Irish Forum etc. there is NO DOUBT he stepped up to the plate and initiated the talks that led to the a solution. And he should forever be lionised for his part in that. (Mallon, McGrady and the rest of the SDLP forced him to do it as a solo run to 'protect the party BTW)

Stop trying to sanitise people. It does your argument no favours.

Brendan Bendar · 13-02-2020 09:41AM

Zzzzzzzzzzzz

It’s 2020 lads, let’s not let this thread develope into the usual morass.

History forum is >. Or is it <

holyhead · 13-02-2020 09:42AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The dangers of not knowing your history.

You know that Hume's idea of taking people out onto the streets was the key act that brought the decades of oppression, gerrymandering and inequality to the boil?

When you bring something to the boil...the lid generally comes off.

Hume and the people he led were the problem in NI in the 60's just as much as the Unionists were. Add in criminally inept British and Irish governments and you had a heady mix. The IRA were not interested and were almost defunct in the early to middle 60's.
What would have happened had Hume listened to his many detractors and stayed off the streets?
When you let the lid come off, it can sadly morph into something else and in Ireland's case, some identified the root cause of the problem as partition (and I cannot argue with them nor as it happens could John Hume) and a continued occupation of this island. When Hume recognised that all his initiatives were never going to work...Sunningdale - The Anglo Irish Forum etc. there is NO DOUBT he stepped up to the plate and initiated the talks that led to the a solution. And he should forever be lionised for his part in that. (Mallon, McGrady and the rest of the SDLP forced him to do it as a solo run to 'protect the party BTW)

Stop trying to sanitise people. It does your argument no favours.

Are you seriously blaming John Hume for the misery that unfolded in N.I. for quarter of a century? Surely this is a leg pull??

gormdubhgorm · 13-02-2020 09:45AM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Are you doing a one man show IRA retrospective?

It is what Shane Doherty did he laid everything out plainly.

I just gave my take on it.

I feel you do not understand the thread and the question posed.

Here is the OP's first post as a reminder.

billyhead wrote: »

Sinn Fein topping the polls in many constituencies. I believe in democracy but too vote this crowd in as your number 1

FrancieBrady · 13-02-2020 09:54AM

holyhead wrote: »

Are you seriously blaming John Hume for the misery that unfolded in N.I. for quarter of a century? Surely this is a leg pull??

No, catch yourself on. He played a part in what happened though, just like many others did. When you take to the streets your intention is to 'confront' and bring things to a head. Hume was to the forefront of that movement so he played his part. Sanitise it all you want.

And in this case Brendan is right. It is off topic.

gormdubhgorm · 13-02-2020 09:57AM

holyhead wrote: »

I find his blog really interesting. He knows how the SF/IRA works more than most. I find the blog makes you think about things in a different light. Yes he has an axe to grind but he makes good points in his blogs. Glad you found it!

It was a good read - but it should not be called 'has Mary Lou any links with the IRA?'.

It should be called 'questions SF are too afraid to answer'. Even if you look at it from a perspective of former leaders advising and directing the current crop, there is are questions.

The sage wisdom of the old guard is never forgotten. Long after Kevin Heffernan retired from Dublin management he was the unofficial guardian/adviser of Dublin Gaelic football. He was even asked back from retirement in 79 it was that easy!

But in a SF context, we are naively expected to believe that the IRA army council is not still there in at least an 'advisory' capacity.

Or at most having the final call on matters of policy, who runs for seats for the party, internal disciplinary matters, PR, strategy etc, finances, fundraising in America etc.

After all, Gerry Adams is on record for saying he was NOT a member of the IRA but he would NEVER disassociate himself from it.

What have we come to

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