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Eirgrid figures during night time EV charging

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  • Options
    #302
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,095 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Anyone remember the figures that used to be touted to justify paying extra for a night rate meter?

    3 units per night is about the breakeven point to cover the extra standing charge and the increased day rate. You're using multiples of that so you should be on the dual tariff.


  • Options
    #303
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,095 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    There was a discussion a few years ago around whether it was better or worse for the environment to charge by day or by night.

    I did some analysis back then and came to the conclusion that the difference, for the Irish grid, was negligible (3%)
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103042278&postcount=102

    It came up again recently so I decided to run the numbers over a longer time period (last year or so) to rule out seasonal variations...
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110218407&postcount=23

    I think the discussion is better suited to this thread....


    To summarise, if you charge your car on night rate its marginally worse for CO2 intensity than if you charge it by day. The average difference, over a year, in CO2 intensity is about 3% more by night.

    The data I'm using is the same data that this thread uses so its Eirgrid's own data here...
    http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com


    Interestingly, I charge my car between 5-8am which is still within the night rate hours but because more generators are coming online for the morning peak the figures seem to be better during that timeframe than if you charge from 11pm-4am.... its a minor difference but does ring true in how the grid works.

    So, I charge from 5-8am and the gCO2/kWh figure for that is 309 for the last year. For 8am or later its 302 so a 2% difference.

    A 2% difference, imo, isnt worth considering when deciding whether to charge during the day or during the night. Others may disagree?


  • Options
    #304
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,095 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind(4am-8am)|Low|High|gCO2/kW(4am-8am)|Low|High|Total Wind %(24hr)|Total Coal %(24hr)|Total Gas %(24hr)
    28/7-26/8 2017|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
    23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
    22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23
    20/11-18/12|38|5|68|347|224|463|30|16|39
    19/12-17/1 2018|46|3|75|331|209|472|39|13|35
    17/1-15/2|50|4|75|295|215|500|42|12|33
    15/2-16/3|35|1|71|371|215|522|33|20|39
    16/3-14/4|29|0|71|373|211|513|26|17|43
    14/4-13/5|32|2|82|291|247|336|32|9|45
    13/5-11/6|14|1|62||||13|7|66
    11/6-10/7|19|1|75||||18|8|65
    10/7-8/8|18|1|67|316|212|372|17|6|68
    8/8-5/9|30|1|73|319|224|447|26|6|59
    6/9-5/10|34|5|74|332|208|440|32|5|49
    5/10-3/11|37|1|76|323|204|437|32|0|52
    3/11-2/12|51|18|75|276|201|390|44|0|45
    2/12-31/12|47|3|80|266|203|393|40|0|42
    31/12-29/1 2019|36|4|77|341|203|499|30|5|46
    30/1-27/2|56|12|77|273|208|411|48|5|35
    27/2-28/3|43|6|84|297|218|394|38|3|43
    28/3-25/4|31|1|78|302|217|394|29|1|53
    26/4-25/5|25|1|77|325|213|429|22|0|64
    24/5-22/6|29|3|63|333|245|436|28|2|59


    Two months of data added in this post. Good to see coal staying at close to zero!


  • Options
    #305
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Just on the night v day charging thing. Anyone with solar panels will have come to notice that there is an overlap between solar generation and night rate, up until 9am. My panels start working around 7am, so I've moved all night rate loads to end at 9am. E.g. previously the dishwasher was set to start at midnight. Now it's set to end at 9am.


  • Options
    #306
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,370 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Just on the night v day charging thing. Anyone with solar panels will have come to notice that there is an overlap between solar generation and night rate, up until 9am. My panels start working around 7am, so I've moved all night rate loads to end at 9am. E.g. previously the dishwasher was set to start at midnight. Now it's set to end at 9am.

    You save something like 6c , is it honestly worth your while delaying it?


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    #307
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    ted1 wrote: »
    You save something like 6c , is it honestly worth your while delaying it?

    I set the timers on washing machine and dishwasher anyway, so it makes no odds. I'm more inclined to have the wm come on in the morning for safety too as it's more likely to leak or catch fire etc.


  • Options
    #308
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,095 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/fears-for-100-moneypoint-jobs-as-esb-looks-to-realign-935622.html

    Snippet...
    A statement from the ESB said that, due to market pressures, carbon prices, and increases in renewable energy, “Moneypoint is running far less than previously”.

    “Given these market fundamentals, a low-running regime is likely to persist into the future. The impact of these factors is that Moneypoint’s income has been significantly reduced,” it said.

    Consequently, ESB needs to realign Moneypoint’s operation and resources with the new lower running regime.


  • Options
    #309
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,639 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Good. Hopefully it is decommissioned entirely and replaced with offshore wind, coupled with grid storage


  • Options
    #310
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Good. Hopefully it is decommissioned entirely and replaced with offshore wind, coupled with grid storage
    There are high tension power lines leading from Moneypoint. They own the land there. It is a good place to put a wind farm as the plant itself is more of an eyesore than the wind turbines would be. It wouldn't be the first wind farm placed beside a decommissioned power plant.


  • Options
    #311
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Another reason to shutter Moneypoint;

    7. Greenhouse gases: Whistleblower claims there is an alleged lack of an effective management system for SF6 (sulfur hexafluoride gas), the most damaging greenhouse gas, with a global warming potential 23,900 times greater than CO2. He further claims the ESB’s handling of this substance would not stand up to external scrutiny.

    ESB response: ESB says its annual usage of SF6 is reported to the EPA in line with EU regulations, and it has also reported on SF6 usage annually to the CRU since 2006. The vast majority of ESB’s SF6 usage in recent years is attributable to the transmission switchgear at Moneypoint transmission substation, which accounted for around 600kg of ESB Networks’ usage of circa 750kg of SF6. It said a €100 million upgrade to the switchgear was completed last month which will “significantly reduce ESB Networks’ usage of SF6 gas”.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/esb-networks-investigates-whistleblower-allegation-on-overtime-1.3949577

    (Edit: why the fook did they spend 100m upgrading switchgear when it's obvious that the whole place is going to be mothballed soon)


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    #312
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Another reason to shutter Moneypoint;

    7. Greenhouse gases: Whistleblower claims there is an alleged lack of an effective management system for SF6 (sulfur hexafluoride gas), the most damaging greenhouse gas, with a global warming potential 23,900 times greater than CO2. He further claims the ESB’s handling of this substance would not stand up to external scrutiny.

    ESB response: ESB says its annual usage of SF6 is reported to the EPA in line with EU regulations, and it has also reported on SF6 usage annually to the CRU since 2006. The vast majority of ESB’s SF6 usage in recent years is attributable to the transmission switchgear at Moneypoint transmission substation, which accounted for around 600kg of ESB Networks’ usage of circa 750kg of SF6. It said a €100 million upgrade to the switchgear was completed last month which will “significantly reduce ESB Networks’ usage of SF6 gas”.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/esb-networks-investigates-whistleblower-allegation-on-overtime-1.3949577

    (Edit: why the fook did they spend 100m upgrading switchgear when it's obvious that the whole place is going to be mothballed soon)
    probable answer: brownouts and datacentres do not mix.


  • Options
    #313
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,370 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    rivegauche wrote: »
    There are high tension power lines leading from Moneypoint. They own the land there. It is a good place to put a wind farm as the plant itself is more of an eyesore than the wind turbines would be. It wouldn't be the first wind farm placed beside a decommissioned power plant.

    They already have put turbines there!


  • Options
    #314
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    put more there.
    Raze it to ground and fit in a few more.
    Wind Turbines aren't showing in the pictures I saw on the internet.

    site has a few acres of coal which can be cleared.
    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Moneypoint+Power+Station/@52.6104344,-9.4280749,2160m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x7462d3c7b157b739!8m2!3d52.6113628!4d-9.4355342


  • Options
    #315
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,063 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    n97 mini wrote: »

    (Edit: why the fook did they spend 100m upgrading switchgear when it's obvious that the whole place is going to be mothballed soon)

    That should be front page news. People have some serious explaining to do :mad:


  • Options
    #316
    Zen65
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Zen65


    rivegauche wrote: »
    It is a good place to put a wind farm as the plant itself is more of an eyesore than the wind turbines would be.

    There's already a windfarm there, right in the middle of the power plant.


  • Options
    #317
    Zen65
    Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Zen65


    n97 mini wrote: »

    (Edit: why the fook did they spend 100m upgrading switchgear when it's obvious that the whole place is going to be mothballed soon)

    According to my friend from EirGrid: The transmission compound is not part of the station, it is operated and developed by EirGrid, not ESB. It's needed regardless of whether the station is operating because it is a node of the 400kV network


  • Options
    #318
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Zen65 wrote: »
    According to my friend from EirGrid: The transmission compound is not part of the station, it is operated and developed by EirGrid, not ESB. It's needed regardless of whether the station is operating because it is a node of the 400kV network

    Eirgrid operate some aspects the grid, but ESBN own it (long standing bone of contention -- thank the unions).


  • Options
    #319
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,095 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind(4am-8am)|Low|High|gCO2/kW(4am-8am)|Low|High|Total Wind %(24hr)|Total Coal %(24hr)|Total Gas %(24hr)
    28/7-26/8 2017|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
    23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
    22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23
    20/11-18/12|38|5|68|347|224|463|30|16|39
    19/12-17/1 2018|46|3|75|331|209|472|39|13|35
    17/1-15/2|50|4|75|295|215|500|42|12|33
    15/2-16/3|35|1|71|371|215|522|33|20|39
    16/3-14/4|29|0|71|373|211|513|26|17|43
    14/4-13/5|32|2|82|291|247|336|32|9|45
    13/5-11/6|14|1|62||||13|7|66
    11/6-10/7|19|1|75||||18|8|65
    10/7-8/8|18|1|67|316|212|372|17|6|68
    8/8-5/9|30|1|73|319|224|447|26|6|59
    6/9-5/10|34|5|74|332|208|440|32|5|49
    5/10-3/11|37|1|76|323|204|437|32|0|52
    3/11-2/12|51|18|75|276|201|390|44|0|45
    2/12-31/12|47|3|80|266|203|393|40|0|42
    31/12-29/1 2019|36|4|77|341|203|499|30|5|46
    30/1-27/2|56|12|77|273|208|411|48|5|35
    27/2-28/3|43|6|84|297|218|394|38|3|43
    28/3-25/4|31|1|78|302|217|394|29|1|53
    26/4-25/5|25|1|77|325|213|429|22|0|64
    24/5-22/6|29|3|63|333|245|436|28|2|59
    24/6-23/7|24|1|73|261|206|331|22|0.5|67
    22/7-20/8|34|1|77|258|201|374|32|1|54


    Another two months of data added in this post.

    Coal still at effectively zero. Imagine the money its costing to maintain and pay staff at Moneypoint and no energy being generated! :eek:


    The gCO2 figure for the last 2 months is a bit of a mystery. Considering that the wind generation is average enough I dont understand how the gCO2 figure is so low. I've checked the data and the figure is correct so maybe it is correct.


  • Options
    #320
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,095 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind(4am-8am)|Low|High|gCO2/kW(4am-8am)|Low|High|Total Wind %(24hr)|Total Coal %(24hr)|Total Gas %(24hr)
    28/7-26/8 2017|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
    23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
    22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23
    20/11-18/12|38|5|68|347|224|463|30|16|39
    19/12-17/1 2018|46|3|75|331|209|472|39|13|35
    17/1-15/2|50|4|75|295|215|500|42|12|33
    15/2-16/3|35|1|71|371|215|522|33|20|39
    16/3-14/4|29|0|71|373|211|513|26|17|43
    14/4-13/5|32|2|82|291|247|336|32|9|45
    13/5-11/6|14|1|62||||13|7|66
    11/6-10/7|19|1|75||||18|8|65
    10/7-8/8|18|1|67|316|212|372|17|6|68
    8/8-5/9|30|1|73|319|224|447|26|6|59
    6/9-5/10|34|5|74|332|208|440|32|5|49
    5/10-3/11|37|1|76|323|204|437|32|0|52
    3/11-2/12|51|18|75|276|201|390|44|0|45
    2/12-31/12|47|3|80|266|203|393|40|0|42
    31/12-29/1 2019|36|4|77|341|203|499|30|5|46
    30/1-27/2|56|12|77|273|208|411|48|5|35
    27/2-28/3|43|6|84|297|218|394|38|3|43
    28/3-25/4|31|1|78|302|217|394|29|1|53
    26/4-25/5|25|1|77|325|213|429|22|0|64
    24/5-22/6|29|3|63|333|245|436|28|2|59
    24/6-23/7|24|1|73|261|206|331|22|0.5|67
    22/7-20/8|34|1|77|258|201|374|32|1|54
    20/8-18/9|38|7|72|298|203|456|33|1|49
    18/9-17/10|41|4|77|301|206|475|38|2|46
    18/10-15/11|39|2|80|297|203|400|36|2|46
    15/11-14/12|43|6|83|300|201|417|37|4|43


    Four months of data added in this post.


  • Options
    #321
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,095 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind(4am-8am)|Low|High|gCO2/kW(4am-8am)|Low|High|Total Wind %(24hr)|Total Coal %(24hr)|Total Gas %(24hr)
    28/7-26/8 2017|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
    23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
    22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23
    20/11-18/12|38|5|68|347|224|463|30|16|39
    19/12-17/1 2018|46|3|75|331|209|472|39|13|35
    17/1-15/2|50|4|75|295|215|500|42|12|33
    15/2-16/3|35|1|71|371|215|522|33|20|39
    16/3-14/4|29|0|71|373|211|513|26|17|43
    14/4-13/5|32|2|82|291|247|336|32|9|45
    13/5-11/6|14|1|62||||13|7|66
    11/6-10/7|19|1|75||||18|8|65
    10/7-8/8|18|1|67|316|212|372|17|6|68
    8/8-5/9|30|1|73|319|224|447|26|6|59
    6/9-5/10|34|5|74|332|208|440|32|5|49
    5/10-3/11|37|1|76|323|204|437|32|0|52
    3/11-2/12|51|18|75|276|201|390|44|0|45
    2/12-31/12|47|3|80|266|203|393|40|0|42
    31/12-29/1 2019|36|4|77|341|203|499|30|5|46
    30/1-27/2|56|12|77|273|208|411|48|5|35
    27/2-28/3|43|6|84|297|218|394|38|3|43
    28/3-25/4|31|1|78|302|217|394|29|1|53
    26/4-25/5|25|1|77|325|213|429|22|0|64
    24/5-22/6|29|3|63|333|245|436|28|2|59
    24/6-23/7|24|1|73|261|206|331|22|0.5|67
    22/7-20/8|34|1|77|258|201|374|32|1|54
    20/8-18/9|38|7|72|298|203|456|33|1|49
    18/9-17/10|41|4|77|301|206|475|38|2|46
    18/10-15/11|39|2|80|297|203|400|36|2|46
    15/11-14/12|43|6|83|300|201|417|37|4|43
    14/12-12/1 2020|36|4|75|287|202|432|35|2|43


    One health warning for this month, there is about 2 weeks worth of data missing. Looks like their database had issues over the Christmas period so its not a complete data set.


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  • Options
    #322
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 65,063 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    High hitting the 80s a good few times as early as nearly a year ago. Does that mean the grid can now handle up to 85% from wind? Last I heard sometime last year it was 75% and the year before 65%


  • Options
    #323
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    just to put performance in perspective:
    https://cleantechnica.com/2020/01/05/denmark-passes-magic-50-in-renewable-electricity-generation-milestone/
    and portugal is over 50% as well.
    The newest off shore mega wind turbine fields should be adopted by Ireland as we have a huge continental shelf.


  • Options
    #324
    YFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    Just checking the eirgrid website. For the fuel mix this week the ewic is 4.17%. Would that be imported energy or exported?

    What is other?


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    #325
    ewj1978
    Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭ewj1978


    If its in a positive its importing. http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#all/interconnection change it to weekly/monthly as required.

    other is : " The “Other” category includes Peat, Combined Heat and Power (CHP), Aggregated Generating Units (AGUs), Demand Side Units (DSUs), Distillate and Waste."


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    #326
    YFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    ewj1978 wrote: »
    If its in a positive its importing. http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/#all/interconnection change it to weekly/monthly as required.

    other is : " The “Other” category includes Peat, Combined Heat and Power (CHP), Aggregated Generating Units (AGUs), Demand Side Units (DSUs), Distillate and Waste."

    Mad that there is import when some wind turbines are turned off.


  • Options
    #327
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    YFlyer wrote: »
    Mad that there is import when some wind turbines are turned off.

    When did this happen?


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    #328
    YFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 9,717 ✭✭✭YFlyer


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    When did this happen?

    I'll put up figures when on a PC tomorrow. Notice on windy nights the electricity demand is decrease and at the same time wind generation is reduced as well. Happens every night.


  • Options
    #329
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    YFlyer wrote: »
    I'll put up figures when on a PC tomorrow. Notice on windy nights the electricity demand is decrease and at the same time wind generation is reduced as well. Happens every night.

    Off peak, yes, this will certainly happen. It is to keep the wind generation under a certain proportion. I would think there are regional considerations as well as national level considerations.


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    #330
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,095 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Update to OP

    % Wind vs Demand from 4-8am

    Date|% Wind(4am-8am)|Low|High|gCO2/kW(4am-8am)|Low|High|Total Wind %(24hr)|Total Coal %(24hr)|Total Gas %(24hr)
    28/7-26/8 2017|28|0|58|365|288|433|24
    25/8-23/9|26|1|67|375|259|458|24
    23/9-22/10|36|1|62|305|210|429|34
    22/10-19/11|29|1|62|334|225|421|23
    20/11-18/12|38|5|68|347|224|463|30|16|39
    19/12-17/1 2018|46|3|75|331|209|472|39|13|35
    17/1-15/2|50|4|75|295|215|500|42|12|33
    15/2-16/3|35|1|71|371|215|522|33|20|39
    16/3-14/4|29|0|71|373|211|513|26|17|43
    14/4-13/5|32|2|82|291|247|336|32|9|45
    13/5-11/6|14|1|62||||13|7|66
    11/6-10/7|19|1|75||||18|8|65
    10/7-8/8|18|1|67|316|212|372|17|6|68
    8/8-5/9|30|1|73|319|224|447|26|6|59
    6/9-5/10|34|5|74|332|208|440|32|5|49
    5/10-3/11|37|1|76|323|204|437|32|0|52
    3/11-2/12|51|18|75|276|201|390|44|0|45
    2/12-31/12|47|3|80|266|203|393|40|0|42
    31/12-29/1 2019|36|4|77|341|203|499|30|5|46
    30/1-27/2|56|12|77|273|208|411|48|5|35
    27/2-28/3|43|6|84|297|218|394|38|3|43
    28/3-25/4|31|1|78|302|217|394|29|1|53
    26/4-25/5|25|1|77|325|213|429|22|0|64
    24/5-22/6|29|3|63|333|245|436|28|2|59
    24/6-23/7|24|1|73|261|206|331|22|0.5|67
    22/7-20/8|34|1|77|258|201|374|32|1|54
    20/8-18/9|38|7|72|298|203|456|33|1|49
    18/9-17/10|41|4|77|301|206|475|38|2|46
    18/10-15/11|39|2|80|297|203|400|36|2|46
    15/11-14/12|43|6|83|300|201|417|37|4|43
    14/12-12/1 2020|36|4|75|287|202|432|35|2|43
    12/1-10/2|51|5|75|262|203|362|44|0|42


    Yay! Coal back to 0%
    And anyone charging their car at night can say 50% of it was renewable. Not a bad figure at all.


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    #331
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,370 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    YFlyer wrote: »
    Mad that there is import when some wind turbines are turned off.

    Could be any number of reasons why. Lots of limitations there may be lines , transformers out of service on the grid that restricts transmission capabilities. By not offering N-1 contingencies


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