Picard 1x03 - "The End is the Beginning" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]

FGR · 11-02-2020 2:46pm

H3llR4iser wrote: »

especially the "Countdown" comic; Chiefly, the fact Raffi Musiker is essentially a drug addict, which is implied to be the main reason behind Starfleet kicking her out as soon as Picard, having resigned, could not intercede for her anymore.

Wait - unless there's a fourth issue I haven't read - I don't recall reading anything about drug addiction in the countdown comic ?

ilovesmybrick · 11-02-2020 2:49pm

FGR wrote: »

Wait - unless there's a fourth issue I haven't read - I don't recall reading anything about drug addiction in the countdown comic ?

Well the novel just came out today, so I'll let you know if there are any parts with her chasing the dragon!

AMKC · 11-02-2020 4:21pm

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Overall I am enjoying this show but not as much as I hoped I would. But I'm still glad it's on and look forward to the next episodes.

So far:

The Good
Laris and the other Romulan. Great actors. Good to see them spring into action last week. No faffing about with "My God, what was that? They're here?" No, simply "They disabled alarm" proceed to kick arse

Interesting ideas: Reclaiming the Borg/harvesting tech; Android/synthetic hack (Not uprising); Aftermath of last TNG Trek movie.

Grown up use of grown up language (As opposed to it's silly use in Discovery)

Liked Hugh in last episode

The Bad
JL

Romulan sister is ridiculously OTT. Dial it back a few notches. Jesus!

Did I mention JL?

And The Meh
Laris just dial back the Irishness a touch. Just a touch. No more "Cheeky Feckers"

No problem really with the Oirish Emergency Holographic Navigator as long as we see it VERY rarely and as long as it's meant to be an ignorant caricature. (Maybe have O'Brien or Laris turn up: "What kind of accent is that?" "It's Irish" "Me hole it is" lol)

The captain on the ship better be more than the one-note stereotype he seems to be. All he was missing was his "This one last job" speech.

Romulan sister is ridiculously OTT.

I think she is awesome and exactly how a Romulan would be.

The captain on the ship better be more than the one-note stereotype he seems to be. All he was missing was his "This one last job" speech.

Don't like him at all. Hopefully he will be killed off sooner rather than later and while there at it that ship and the one Picard met in the desert can go too.

Evade · 11-02-2020 4:31pm

AMKC wrote: »

I think she is awesome and exactly how a Romulan would be.

Only if Romulus is space Alabama.

H3llR4iser · 11-02-2020 4:34pm

FGR wrote: »

Wait - unless there's a fourth issue I haven't read - I don't recall reading anything about drug addiction in the countdown comic ?

Yeah I went to look back at it - seems like my memory blended together the comic and a couple of articles that "introduced" the character. Still, the point of the show not explaining things and leaving it to the "oh people will know because Intetnet!" approach remains, it WILL be confusing for many. Not everyone is constantly looking shoite up

.

odyssey06 · 11-02-2020 4:55pm

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Yeah I went to look back at it - seems like my memory blended together the comic and a couple of articles that "introduced" the character. Still, the point of the show not explaining things and leaving it to the "oh people will know because Intetnet!" approach remains, it WILL be confusing for many. Not everyone is constantly looking shoite up .

They have 10 episodes to get through, could they not just let the characters come through on screen instead of expecting people to internet their back story?
I understand for theatrical releases there's a clock ticking and stuff has to be cut but I think this just reflects inabilities in the writers.

Calhoun · 11-02-2020 8:12pm

pah wrote: »

But that's the way rank operates. Its not about respect for the person it's for the uniform and pips. Its a crappy writing decision

It does indeed but i suppose i have been colored by the years of extra reading where he has a more informal relationship with his direct in command.

You can only imagine in this case both him and his first officer were closer because of their ideologies on rescuing the romulans.

Either way is it really that bad that its ruining the whole thing for everyone?

Evade · 11-02-2020 8:21pm

Calhoun wrote: »

Either way is it really that bad that its ruining the whole thing for everyone?

Has anyone here actually said "JL" has ruined the series for them?

Calhoun · 11-02-2020 8:26pm

Evade wrote: »

Has anyone here actually said "JL" has ruined the series for them?

No but its a key negative talking point, when its probably a minor piece of whats wrong even if it is wrong.

11-02-2020 8:29pm

That she kept shoving it in every other sentence made it a lot worse

Evade · 11-02-2020 8:32pm

It was probably the cringiest thing in this episode. There'll be another thing to get under everyone's skin next week.

H3llR4iser · 11-02-2020 8:53pm

Evade wrote: »

It was probably the cringiest thing in this episode. There'll be another thing to get under everyone's skin next week.

Yeah...I do think people are actively looking for things to get pissed about in the show. Maybe in part it's fear stemming from the absolute dumpster fire that have been the JJ Movies and then Discovery.

As I posted before, ST:Picard ain't perfect and probably it's not the show many trekkies were dreaming about - let's be honest, many simply wanted them to get a shiny new Enterprise-F and pick up 22 years later as if nothing happened.

Still, even with the different undertones and the "betrayal" of the utopia concept, it delivers in terms of feeling part of the Star Trek universe.

I for one...can't understand why everything today has to be dark & moody; It's almost as if writers and producers consider the wider audience pretty much too stupid and self centered to appreciate views of a better, utopian future.

Then again, considering we're living in what's the most peaceful and rich era mankind has experienced so far, yet most people are all "oh we're sooooo doomed" based off what they see on the screen of their smartphone, the writers seem to be right on the money.

Evade · 11-02-2020 9:21pm

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Yeah...I do think people are actively looking for things to get pissed about in the show.

Probably but I also think other people read rage where there isn't any. Sometimes it's just pointing out where they got something 90% right and then the last 10% is glaringly wrong. The Romulan disruptors are that way. They look like an evolution of the disruptor design seen before on TNG and all but then they're the wrong colour.

Other times though someone on Picard will bring up a pretty deep cut like the northern Romulan thing. It's a direct reference to something Terry Farrel once said at a con about the difference in Trill make up between their first appearance on TNG and Jadzia's on DS9. That, or it's a huge coincidence.

Calhoun · 11-02-2020 10:17pm

I think with the state of most fandoms at the moment its not hard to assume why people see possible rage in comments.

11-02-2020 10:49pm

I was just having a moan personally

H3llR4iser · 12-02-2020 12:09pm

Evade wrote: »

Probably but I also think other people read rage where there isn't any. Sometimes it's just pointing out where they got something 90% right and then the last 10% is glaringly wrong. The Romulan disruptors are that way. They look like an evolution of the disruptor design seen before on TNG and all but then they're the wrong colour.

Good point - which also beggars belief as to why multi-million productions would make such stupid, little mistakes. It clearly speaks of either lack of attention or straight up ignorance about the product.

Case in point, the TOS uniforms in Discovery - they lacked the rank on the cuffs and had to be added in postproduction (CGI, if I remember correctly). Why? The production went on and hired one of the most highly regarded costume designers in Hollywood...who had never, ever seen an episode of Star Trek before and obviously didn't know about the cuff ranks detail. You'd expect the production to point it out to her, but nope - and the sad reality is that giving her just any Trekkie as an intern/assistant, could have prevented such issue. Same with the Romulan disruptors - anyone here would have been "great job on those disruptors, but they have to be green..."

.

Evade wrote: »

Other times though someone on Picard will bring up a pretty deep cut like the northern Romulan thing. It's a direct reference to something Terry Farrel once said at a con about the difference in Trill make up between their first appearance on TNG and Jadzia's on DS9. That, or it's a huge coincidence.

Yeah that was pretty cool, I'm surprised a few people didn't get it - she even slaps the dude's forehead remarking how it's a giveaway of the fact he's a "stubborn northerner"

.

Calhoun wrote: »

I think with the state of most fandoms at the moment its not hard to assume why people see possible rage in comments.

Yeah, but it's a bit of a slippery slope - I will never, ever deny there are complete nutcases in "fandoms" who live in a bubble of unrealistic expectations and just spit venom randomly; On the other hand, the pejorative "Toxic Fandom" has been widely used to shut down any form of criticism towards movies/series/products, by just tarring anyone who doesn't like them with one "-ist" or the other - pick your favourite

pixelburp · 12-02-2020 12:21pm

I think it's easy to see fandom as predominantly toxic when the first exposure to "fans" these days are the review-bombs and rants present on Metacritic or other aggregators. That and Twitter, coupled with media outlets' love to report fringe behaviour as normal, means on average it's more likely IMO to be exposed to the the ásshole wing, those "SJWs in Trek, Grr!", "black stormtroopers in Star Wars, Grr!" or "female Dr Who, Grr!" wing-nuts. Most fans are normal, well wishing and intelligent, but instead we get these reports of boycotts, review bombs and other shítty behaviour.

Certainly I'd be the first to admit that it puts me on automatic defensive & on edge, knowing that those bad faith arguments are out there - and have even infiltrated this otherwise sober forum on occasion. TBH I don't see that much of this supposed "Shut up, racist" shutdowns as is often suggested, not compared to the avalanche of vitriol present in the broader public domain anyway. It's glib to take the "Both sides" point of view, but TBH the ratio doesn't seem equal, when looking at the sheer volume of bile - even if it's just reported more.

Stark · 12-02-2020 12:35pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Certainly I'd be the first to admit that it puts me on automatic defensive & on edge, knowing that those bad faith arguments are out there - and have even infiltrated this otherwise sober forum on occasion.

Same here. Really don't enjoy admitting that a particular episode has left me underwhelmed these days as the wingnuts will pounce on it to "prove" that their ****ty opinions are being vindicated. And then you have to spend the time countering that the weak points were due to simple bad writing and not diversity. Putting oneself in the "shut up, racist!" camp. The Discovery threads grew very tiresome for that reason.

I can only imagine if Voyager aired today. Every criticism of the show's weak points being seized upon with cries of "see, we were right! Paramount were wrong to do a show with a female captain! Oh and there's a female chief Engineer too! Where are all the men on the ship!?".

ilovesmybrick · 12-02-2020 12:51pm

Stark wrote: »

I can only imagine if Voyager aired today. Every criticism of the show's weak points being seized upon with cries of "see, we were right! Paramount were wrong to do a show with a female captain! Oh and there's a female chief Engineer too! Where are all the men on the ship!?".

Obviously all the men were below decks building the magic torpedo machine! /s

Evade · 12-02-2020 2:47pm

I honestly can't understand being hesitant to say you like/dislike something because people you don't like will agree with you.

TomSweeney · 12-02-2020 9:11pm

pah wrote: »

It made me squirm in my seat with the 3 dopes picard had with him and the rubbish looking ship. Uuggjhh

Yeah that ship, what the hell were they thinking !!! ??

Rawr · 12-02-2020 9:16pm

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

Obviously all the men were below decks building the magic torpedo machine! /s

Always been meaning to do a count of the Voyager torpedoes, kind of glad these guys beat me to it

I had a feeling they had gone over the original "total" of torpedoes at some stage...but damn....they really did spend them like crazy :P

Evade · 12-02-2020 9:20pm

I always wondered why torpedoes couldn't be manufactured. They're just an engine, some sensors, and an antimatter storage pod. Surely they'd be easier to build than say a brand new scout ship, twice.

Calhoun · 12-02-2020 9:27pm

I am sure they did in the end, at the start it was like oh crap we are screwed limited resources ect.

Then they became like the travelling hobo, telling tales and selling crap to replenish their supplies.

pixelburp · 12-02-2020 9:33pm

Had Voyager been a serialised show, they could have easily made the resource issue a plot point, encompassing the lack of photon torpedoes. Would have concentrated the minds of writers, whereas I presume most weren't aware there even WAS a scarcity. In a similar vein, I can't remember, did the BSG reboot ever approach that problem of ammunition? Seem to recall issues of food, water etc, but the means to defend the fleet, was that broached as a story point?

Rawr · 12-02-2020 9:37pm

Calhoun wrote: »

I am sure they did in the end, at the start it was like oh crap we are screwed limited resources ect.

Then they became like the travelling hobo, telling tales and selling crap to replenish their supplies.

Also Coffee Nebulas.....

There's probably also some Photon Nebulas, Antimatter Nebulas and Holodeck Ration Nebulas....

.....I could have totally written for Voyager

Evade · 12-02-2020 9:49pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Had Voyager been a serialised show, they could have easily made the resource issue a plot point, encompassing the lack of photon torpedoes. Would have concentrated the minds of writers, whereas I presume most weren't aware there even WAS a scarcity. In a similar vein, I can't remember, did the BSG reboot ever approach that problem of ammunition? Seem to recall issues of food, water etc, but the means to defend the fleet, was that broached as a story point?

They emptied an ammunition depot in the miniseries and presumably emptied the Pegasus before stupidly destroying her instead of the Galactica. I'd say since most of the Galactica's fighting was essentially covering the fleet and running away and not standing there and pounding at the Cylons like she was designed to do the ammunition lasted a lot longer than it would have in a proper shooting war. Towards the end I think non standard small arms started to pop up indicating they were running low but that could also just have been rule of cool.

degrassinoel · 12-02-2020 10:31pm

Those first three episodes should have been a feature length pilot, took a while to get into it, and i reckon it could have been done better too. Still, a lot better than discovery so far

AMKC · 12-02-2020 10:56pm

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

Obviously all the men were below decks building the magic torpedo machine! /s

Lol that made me laugh. I suppose they thought at the time 'sure who will be counting' Maybe they thought it would not be noticed as it was not a serilised show. They would not get away with that now do. They should have had Chokotay say 138 Torpedos and they would have had some left over by the time they got home then. I suppose at the time do they had no idea how many would be fired so it would have been a guess as well. Still if they could build the Delta Flyer they must have found a way to make torpedo's as well.

Stark · 12-02-2020 11:39pm

Not sure how accurate the Youtube video is. Read a quora article or similar a while which seemed to suggest they were still over quota until Season 5 and then they abandoned any pretence at conserving them from Dark Frontier on. (Along with other attempts at depicting a starship far from resource replenishments such as replicator rationing or any attempt to portray the Borg as even a vague threat for that matter). They would have used up their inventory during "Year of Hell" but then that was erased from the timeline. I guess you'd have to assume also that they were able to use empty torpedo casings for the biomolecular warheads to avoid eating into the live inventory.

This was it I think https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/23850/how-did-voyager-replace-its-photon-torpedoes

AllForIt · 13-02-2020 1:11am

On the subject of the accent of the EMH, watching it back he seems to be flitting from one accent to the other. Perhaps he'll do Scottish next week. He is electronic after all.

On the subject of Rafi's acting I didn't notice it's as bad as anyone else's. Picard seem to be a bit stiff at times to be fair. As if he's struggling with the mumbo jumbo.

The think about Rafi is ...she very black. She seems very much of 'the hood'. It's hard to see her as being a federation officer in the past with that 'attitude'. When Picard goes to visit her she's living in a trailer truck...is this her regular abode or is she on hiatus in the wild? It does kinda point to an underclass which I though was all ironed out in the Federation future.

pixelburp · 13-02-2020 12:00pm

"The think about Rafi is ...she very black. She seems very much of 'the hood'."

Uh, not sure you and I were watching the same show there. She very much isn't of "the hood"

Goodshape · 13-02-2020 3:10pm

It was a pretty nice looking trailer though, wasn't it?

I wouldn't be sure it's a case of "she can't afford better", in this apparent world with no money, but maybe she just wanted the quiet isolation.

pixelburp · 13-02-2020 3:26pm

Yeah. It's a utopia, presumably one can live however or wherever one prefers, within reason. I'd just presume there are plenty who choose to Ron Swanson their way through life and live off the grid; not like it's even subsistence living either, what with the commonality of replicators (though I'm sure some would live off the soil by choice). Rafi had obviously decided to live away from the hubbub of urban life. Can't say I'd blame her, I'd be tempted myself

Does beg the question of land ownership mind; how does Picard get to cultivate "his" farmland, in a world with no money or capitalism? We saw a lot of land he ostensibly owns. Who decides property rights and how much the Picards get to own? Or is farming an exceptional status; everyone gets a plot of their own, except those who choose to cultivate the land? Uh oh. I feel a rabbit hole coming ...

Evade · 13-02-2020 3:39pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Does beg the question of land ownership mind; how does Picard get to cultivate "his" farmland, in a world with no money or capitalism? We saw a lot of land he ostensibly owns. Who decides property rights and how much the Picards get to own? Or is farming an exceptional status; everyone gets a plot of their own, except those who choose to cultivate the land? Uh oh. I feel a rabbit hole coming ...

I don't know how true the no money thing is anymore. Rafi made a 1% kind of jab at Picard. Something along the lines of "it's ok for you to leave Starfleet, you can go back to your nice comfortable vineyard" like her being kicked out meant she couldn't support herself and Jurati said she'd pay to go with Picard. It could just be whoever wrote those lines didn't know the Federation didn't use money but if that's the case it doesn't bode well. I know, I know, canon doesn't matter blah blah blah.

pixelburp · 13-02-2020 3:49pm

Evade wrote: »

I don't know how true the no money thing is anymore. Rafi made a 1% kind of jab at Picard. Something along the lines of "it's ok for you to leave Starfleet, you can go back to your nice comfortable vineyard" like her being kicked out meant she couldn't support herself and Jurati said she'd pay to go with Picard. It could just be whoever wrote those lines didn't know the Federation didn't use money but if that's the case it doesn't bode well. I know, I know, canon doesn't matter blah blah blah.

Well latinum still exists, so I just presumed this was the payment until otherwise contradicted. I'm sure humans still pursue wealth if they so choose, just not necessarily on Fed planets. Never said canon didn't matter, just that one Romulan line shouldn't take priority, whereas here it's a fundamental backbone of the series' worldbuilding that tickles me. I guess what I'm wondering is how the Federation organises earth's citizens' rights. Picards vineyard, Siksos' restaurant: who decides the property rights, especially given the Picards have land that'd house hundreds comfortably. Or are they just tenants on denominated "cultural" land technically owned by Earth? Like I said, a rabbit hole.

Evade · 13-02-2020 4:14pm

Latinum, and presumably other currencies, exist but it's not the first thing that would come to mind for humans on Earth. Jurati's first instinct wouldn't be to cover the cost of her going and Rafi's 1% jab makes no sense in a post scarcity society. There'll probably be a comic or book explaining how this all makes sense because of something in that happened to the character in the past but if you need to read a companion piece for a series to make sense, it's not a good series.

I wasn't specifically referencing you or the Romulan thing. It's whenever events that contradict previously established ones are pointed out someone will say it doesn't matter.

Yeah, the rabbit hole of how resource allocation works in the Federation is pretty deep. Some professions make sense like a chef or making wine but who in their right mind would want to wait tables or be the dishwasher.

seamus · 13-02-2020 4:26pm

I would like to remind everyone that the first season (or two) of TNG was a hot mess that took a dump all over established canon and had lots of internal continuity issues.

The expectation of perfection from some quarters forgets that. If we'd had this kind of Internet in 1987, TNG would be declared an farcical mess that's all style and no substance. Flashy special effects at the expense of good storytelling.

Ultimately a lot of it comes down to the feeling that it's "just not the same" as TNG. And tbh, even if they picked up directly where TNG left off, same cast, crew, everything, people would still feel like that. Because the viewer is not the same either. The viewer's own worldview has changed, their lives when they enjoyed TNG are not the same as the life they have now. So no new Trek series is ever going to feel the same as it did back then.

To me, this is why it's just as important for Star Trek to "update" itself for later series. Like it did with TNG. The viewer will get comfortable with the new, and it'll become familiar, and stand on its own two feet. Rather than being a poor replication of what it was, and constantly failing to recreate past glory.

Evade · 13-02-2020 4:32pm

It was also a lot harder in 1987, or even 2005, to find out every little detail about a race/piece of technology/whatever. There's less of an excuse for these kinds of slip ups with the modern internet.

fixXxer · 13-02-2020 4:33pm

I took Rafi's comment more in a "you have your hobby/family business you can always do, Star Fleet is all I have" kind of way.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 13-02-2020 7:09pm

Where is everyone watching this? I managed to get episodes 1 and 2 easily through my usual dodgy sites, no sign of 3 and 4 yet.

pixelburp · 13-02-2020 7:23pm

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Where is everyone watching this? I managed to get episodes 1 and 2 easily through my usual dodgy sites, no sign of 3 and 4 yet.

Amazon Video has international broadcast rights, has done from the start.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 13-02-2020 7:34pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Amazon Video has international broadcast rights, has done from the start.

Nice one, I'm paying for it for the last two years and never used it!

ilovesmybrick · 13-02-2020 7:58pm

Hunky Monster wrote: »

Nice one, I'm paying for it for the last two years and never used it!

Yeah, the interface is utter sh**e! For this and the expanse though I make sure to watch them, I want the sci-fi to keep coming!

AllForIt · 14-02-2020 5:21am

pixelburp wrote: »

"The think about Rafi is ...she very black. She seems very much of 'the hood'."

Uh, not sure you and I were watching the same show there. She very much isn't of "the hood"

She has very much has the demeanor of one that is - that is all I was saying.

She's gruff, sassy, very 'street' - I don't know how you could possibly access her character any other way. She's hardly refined middle-class is she, living in a futuristic trailer park an all.

I'm a bit disturbed that I get the feeling that my comments were taken as racist. All I was doing was accessing the character I saw before me. God you can't say anything these days.

Stark · 14-02-2020 9:42am

"what's the world coming to when you can't even complain about someone being too black these days? PC gone mad or wha" :rolleyes:

pixelburp · 14-02-2020 11:26am

AllForIt wrote: »

She has very much has the demeanor of one that is - that is all I was saying.

She's gruff, sassy, very 'street' - I don't know how you could possibly access her character any other way. She's hardly refined middle-class is she, living in a futuristic trailer park an all.

I'm a bit disturbed that I get the feeling that my comments were taken as racist. All I was doing was accessing the character I saw before me. God you can't say anything these days.

Trailer park isn't "of the hood" either, so you're getting your stereotypes all mixed up TBH; and given she was vaping and drinking good wine, that seems a very middle class activity to me

You said she was "very black", which yeah, doesn't read good no matter how affronted you might be. At best it's a crass stereotype, at worst it's, well you used the word not me. Do you call people as "very white" of them? Of course you don't.

TBH, the "of the hood" comment just seems a little naive more than anything, you obviously never watched The Wire. Rafis was about as "of the hood" as Phil Lynott.

14-02-2020 3:59pm

Amazon didn't show ep 4 for me when i checked yesterday

Evade · 14-02-2020 4:00pm

bluewolf wrote: »

Amazon didn't show ep 4 for me when i checked yesterday

It was up at 2300 for me.

Goodshape · 14-02-2020 4:02pm

bluewolf wrote: »

Amazon didn't show ep 4 for me when i checked yesterday

Episodes released on a Friday on Amazon. (Or very late Thursday night).

They're released on the American streaming services on Thursday though, and usually available from "friends on the Internet" before midday.

Picard 1x03 - "The End is the Beginning" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

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Picard 1x03 - "The End is the Beginning" [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]