What have we come to

FrancieBrady · 11-02-2020 04:27PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I don't like EH and his paper nearly made me vote for SF in spite of him a few times in the past - when it got really silly. I got that annoyed. If you search for Independent attacks on SF you will find my post about it.

My gripe is the main SF vote was based on the vague promise of change housing and health etc But this was not delivered NI by SF clearly. Basic research shows this.

But many ROI new SF voters see NI as a distant place so have no problem with it. Nor do they remember the troubles or any issues relating to them afterwards.

Then to add to the irony most of those SF voters did not 'get' Brexit and it is going to affect the whole island NI and ROI

Anybody who 'knows' NI will say it is a totally different and unique entity in terms of governance and delivering a programme for government.
Of course SF can be criticised there, but it has to be in that context.

And as regards how people voted this time, that bus has left the station.

The pertinent issues now are how is a government going to be formed, not recriminations.

gormdubhgorm · 11-02-2020 04:32PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Anybody who 'knows' NI will say it is a totally different and unique entity in terms of governance and delivering a programme for government.
Of course SF can be criticised there, but it has to be in that context.

And as regards how people voted this time, that bus has left the station.

The pertinent issues now are how is a government going to be formed, not recriminations.

If ever there was a SF sweeping under the carpet line this is it!
Yet we have Dessie Ellis and David Culliane harking back to the past....

How do you stack that contradiction in your mind? Because I have to be honest after seeing that Culliane effort, than denial deflection and bluffing - if I had voted SF first time- I would feel unclean. Dirty. A return to days of tension and unease.

James Brown · 11-02-2020 04:35PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I neither voted FF/SF on my ballot paper as for putting effort on SF and not FF. The youngsters know the FF story not the SF one.

'FF are the lesser of two evils' to paraphrase Tony Gregory.

I do not have the time find your quote about your SF vote - but was prior to the election and on the why People don't vote SF thread I believe.

Also here is the bit I had about SF's record in NI -

SF have actually widened the gap between rich and poor in NI

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2020/02/10/celebrating-sinn-fein-election-surge-consider-their-pro-austerity-record-north

Health NI:

https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2019/1204/1097090-northern-ireland-health/

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:RVTQ7CyHeagJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/thousands-of-nurses-in-northern-ireland-strike-over-pay-1.4133733+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

Housing NI:

https://thedetail.tv/articles/social-housing-bb946a8a-43df-450d-b8cd-66d71030cdf3

Homelessness NI:

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/more-quarter-recent-uk-homeless-21114251

Social Welfare NI:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3Kdvi9pOC4gJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sinn-f%25C3%25A9in-under-fire-over-welfare-cuts-move-1.2435441+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie

No governance in Stormont for over three years

Worse still SF sat on thier hands for three years playing games with the DUP in Stormont.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/10/pressure-mounts-northern-irish-parties-restore-power-sharing-sinn-fein-dup

That is before we get into murderers and/or cover ups of murderers etc and how I have to be very specific as you suddenly start nitpicking - I repeatedly said SF have covered up murders linked to republicanism - even those after 'the troubles'

Thanks for the links. I have access to the internet.
They represented the tax payer by holding Foster to account. I can see how that's silly games to a FG supporter.

I ain't nitpicking sh*t. I've answered. You keep making inferences.
If you've proof, great. This isn't a defence by the way. You blustering about SF and spinning yarns will get called out. Try it on another party, you'll get the same responses. This is all designed to cover up for FG and give FF a free pass IMO.

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

SF and Mary Lou sneer at FF and FG supporters when she says it would be a disaster for tweedledum and tweedledee to get back into power.

That's politics.

All the waster, scumbag, ill educated comments have been from FG supporters to anyone voted SF. That's seemingly FG politics.

Odhinn · 11-02-2020 04:36PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

If ever there was a SF sweeping under the carpet line this is it!
Yet we have Dessie Ellis and David Culliane harking back to the past....

So you'd like everyone to pretend that the armed struggle never happened?

blanch152 · 11-02-2020 04:37PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Thanks for the links. I have access to the internet.
They represented the tax payer by holding Foster to account. I can see how that's silly games to a FG supporter.

I ain't nitpicking sh*t. I've answered. You keep making inferences.
If you've proof, great. This isn't a defence by the way. You blustering about SF and spinning yarns will get called out. Try it on another party, you'll get the same responses. This is all designed to cover up for FG and give FF a free pass IMO.

All the waster, scumbag, ill educated comments have been from FG supporters to anyone voted SF.

Last I checked Foster was still First Minister. In fact she was tweeting today to explain to the public why a border poll isn't going to happen. Remind me how she was held to account, and how beneficial that was to justify three years outside of Stormont?

Snow Garden · 11-02-2020 04:41PM

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

SF and Mary Lou sneer at FF and FG supporters when she says it would be a disaster for tweedledum and tweedledee to get back into power.

That's politics.

I think it was a fair phrase to use. I don't think she was sneering at the FFG voters and suggesting they were 'bold' to vote the way they did in 2007, 2011 and 2016. She was suggesting they are are 2 sides of the same coin and have been a disaster for Ireland in recent decades. Which they have. FF bankrupted us and FG have achieved very little since 2011 and appear equally as corrupt, wasteful and self serving.

Did you read the new politics document that FG gave us in 2011? I did. And voted for it. It was a false promise.

James Brown · 11-02-2020 04:42PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Last I checked Foster was still First Minister. In fact she was tweeting today to explain to the public why a border poll isn't going to happen. Remind me how she was held to account, and how beneficial that was to justify three years outside of Stormont?

It wasn't silly games. You've spun blarney on this yourself a number of times.
They failed in the attempt. The walk out was justified. As a FG supporter I can see how the tax payer being ripped off might be okay with you.
Trying to get digs in. Is there a prize and how will we know who won?

FrancieBrady · 11-02-2020 04:49PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

If ever there was a SF sweeping under the carpet line this is it!
Yet we have Dessie Ellis and David Culliane harking back to the past....

How do you stack that contradiction in your mind? Because I have to be honest after seeing that Culliane effort, than denial deflection and bluffing - if I had voted SF first time- I would feel unclean. Dirty. A return to days of tension and unease.

Gormdubh, do you believe either of them were promoting an IRA that is still in existence? Serious question and you need to prove it. Suspicions don't work here.

If you don't, then the questions about the Collins painting and the call to arms that is our National Anthem come into play.

Like it or not (and I would prefer it wasn't) the IRA are a part of our history.

Like other aspects of our history we have to learn how to live with it appropriately.
If Cullinane was leaping onto a table during negotiations shouting 'Up the RA' that would be inappropriate, if he was parading past somebody's house shouting it, so too would that.
State commemorations for the RIC are inappropriate but as shown nobody believes that commemorating them is inappropriate.
Orange Marches are not inappropriate when they are respectful and non threatening and so on.

gormdubhgorm · 11-02-2020 04:51PM

Odhinn wrote: »

So you'd like everyone to pretend that the armed struggle never happened?

That is really twisting my point -

Here is what I want SF to do -

1) Condemn IRA atrocities - not say we all have lost lives in the struggle etc.
No cloaking in double talk and nods and winks.

2) Not protect those in republicanism who were involved in murder or accessories to same

3) Stop trying to unjustly discredit victims of republican related murder - take responsibility for it - own it as the yanks say.

4) Stop trying to glorify republicanism as if it was all glorious or heroic from any era

5) Stop writing others out of history because it does not suit the glorious republican narrative

6) Not try and bring down parts of the courts in the ROI merely because they used to catch your comrades - but at the same time claim to be tough on crime.

7) Admission of some of thier own failings of governance in NI and things they could do better - housing health soc welfare etc - not to hide behind the Brits for these failings

8) Stop glorifying republican funerals they should be much more low key and not polictised as much

9) Stop disrespecting the Irish tricolour after election victories along with old hat rhetoric

Odhinn · 11-02-2020 04:58PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is really twisting my point -

Here is what I want SF to do -

1) Condemn IRA atrocities - not say we all have lost lives in the struggle etc.
No cloaking in double talk and nods and winks.

2) Not protect those in republicanism who were involved in murder or accessories to same

3) Stop trying to unjustly discredit victims of republican related murder - take responsibility for it - own it as the yanks say.

4) Stop trying to glorify republicanism as if it was all glorious or heroic from any era

5) Stop writing others out of history because it does not suit the glorious republican narrative

6) Not try and bring down parts of the courts in the ROI merely because they used to catch your comrades - but at the same time claim to be tough on crime.

7) Admission of some of thier own failings of governance in NI and things they could do better - housing health soc welfare etc - not to hide behind the Brits for these failings

8) Stop glorifying republican funerals they should be much more low key and not polictised as much

9) Stop disrespecting the Irish tricolour after election victories along with old hat rhetoric

Sounds like you want them to not be a republican party, tbh.

There are far more people than SF that have a problem with the SCC. Other states manage well enough without one.

blanch152 · 11-02-2020 05:00PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It wasn't silly games. You've spun blarney on this yourself a number of times.
They failed in the attempt. The walk out was justified.

If they failed, then it wasn't justified. Simple as. Three years were wasted in Northern Ireland when a lot could have been done for a failed walk-out. There is no way that can be justified.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

As a FG supporter I can see how the tax payer being ripped off might be okay with you.
Trying to get digs in. Is there a prize and how will we know who won?

The irony is funny.

11-02-2020 05:01PM

Sf saying we’re closer to a united ireland now, are we invading the north ? .

FrancieBrady · 11-02-2020 05:01PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is really twisting my point -

Here is what I want SF to do -

1) Condemn IRA atrocities - not say we all have lost lives in the struggle etc.
No cloaking in double talk and nods and winks.

2) Not protect those in republicanism who were involved in murder or accessories to same

3) Stop trying to unjustly discredit victims of republican related murder - take responsibility for it - own it as the yanks say.

4) Stop trying to glorify republicanism as if it was all glorious or heroic from any era

5) Stop writing others out of history because it does not suit the glorious republican narrative

6) Not try and bring down parts of the courts in the ROI merely because they used to catch your comrades - but at the same time claim to be tough on crime.

7) Admission of some of thier own failings of governance in NI and things they could do better - housing health soc welfare etc - not to hide behind the Brits for these failings

8) Stop glorifying republican funerals they should be much more low key and not polictised as much

9) Stop disrespecting the Irish tricolour after election victories along with old hat rhetoric

Did you have a list of demands for the parties you did vote for before you voted?

FrancieBrady · 11-02-2020 05:03PM

blanch152 wrote: »

If they failed, then it wasn't justified. Simple as. Three years were wasted in Northern Ireland when a lot could have been done for a failed walk-out. There is no way that can be justified.

AND ignore again that we all know a deal was done and because they had the safety of the rotten to the core Tory deal, the DUP walked away from it.

Impossible.

gormdubhgorm · 11-02-2020 05:06PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Gormdubh, do you believe either of them were promoting an IRA that is still in existence? Serious question and you need to prove it. Suspicions don't work here.

If you don't, then the questions about the Collins painting and the call to arms that is our National Anthem come into play.

Considering the IRA is a secret paramiltary organisation the burden of proof you place on me is high/
Any chance I have of joining Óglaigh na hÉireann will be severely dented by this thread.

So I am not sure what prove you are asking for? Who do you think are the brains behind SF - the army council or former army council? They just did not start tending thier gardens or playing golf/

Of course I believe both those lads were promoting the provos. David C in particular gave a speech praising them for jayus sake. Although the song get out you black and tans seems harmless on it's own. It has a different more sinister meaning when former IRA man and prisoner Dessie E sings it.
Proof of the fact leopards do not change thier spots?

Like it or not (and I would prefer it wasn't) the IRA are a part of our history.

Like other aspects of our history we have to learn how to live with it appropriately.
If Cullinane was leaping onto a table during negotiations shouting 'Up the RA' that would be inappropriate, if he was parading past somebody's house shouting it, so too would that.

Come off it in many republicans eyes the RA can do no real wrong, they might refer to unfortunate mistakes at most for a killing here or there. What Cullinane did will stay on the internet for life - he only did it because he did not know he was being filmed. How do you think anyone who has to negotiate with him in future will see him? A wannabe provo, a bit of an eejit, not very savvy?

State commemorations for the RIC are inappropriate but as shown nobody believes that commemorating them is inappropriate.
Orange Marches are not inappropriate when they are respectful and non threatening and so on.

I am not getting into this again my views on it are well covered on the relevant thread.

gormdubhgorm · 11-02-2020 05:07PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did you have a list of demands for the parties you did vote for before you voted?

In my head yeah.

James Brown · 11-02-2020 05:08PM

blanch152 wrote: »

If they failed, then it wasn't justified. Simple as. Three years were wasted in Northern Ireland when a lot could have been done for a failed walk-out. There is no way that can be justified.

That's nonsense. You try do the right thing. That's what makes character. You don't know until you try. It was the right move IMO.

The irony is funny.

Boss, IMO all you do is try attack and score points.
Look at this. The other lad called it silly games. I explained why I don't think it was by citing Foster/cash for ash.
You come in saying she's still there. like them failing means what? They shouldn't have tried or na na, na, na na? Give over.

Odhinn · 11-02-2020 05:10PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

..............

Of course I believe both those lads were promoting the provos. David C in particular gave a speech praising them for jayus sake. Although the song get out you black and tans seems harmless on it's own. It has a different more sinister meaning when former IRA man and prisoner Dessie E sings it.
Proof of the fact leopards do not change thier spots?

............................

So what you want is for veteran republicans to pretend they aren't veteran republicans, disavow decades of effort for the republican cause, and stick to a list of approved ballads.

gormdubhgorm · 11-02-2020 05:13PM

Odhinn wrote: »

There are far more people than SF that have a problem with the SCC. Other states manage well enough without one.

I believe Mary Lou said something like... we want to tough on crime in dublin- something like the SCC but not the SCC! Was on P Kenny NT I am sure you can find the bit - pre election

---

The SCC worked great for Ireland in defending the state against offences against it from subversive organisations.

SF cynically hid behind Amnesty international and the likes - not because they believe in Human Rights - but because the SCC locked up many of thier republican comrades.

gormdubhgorm · 11-02-2020 05:16PM

Odhinn wrote: »

So what you want is for veteran republicans to pretend they aren't veteran republicans, disavow decades of effort for the republican cause, and stick to a list of approved ballads.

Nope I would like SF TD's to behave as respectable TD's, and not like gombeens pandering to vey dubious individuals in thier party base.

Is that too much to ask? I suppose in a way it is difficult to stop them from the mask slipping. A litmus test of sorts. Was David Culliane a veteran republican was he active in the field?

Odhinn · 11-02-2020 05:16PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I believe Mary Lou said something like... we want to tough on crime in dublin- something like the SCC but not the SCC! Was on P Kenny NT I am sure you can find the bit - pre election

---

The SCC worked great for Ireland in defending the state against offences against it from subversive organisations.

SF cynically hid behind Amnesty international and the likes - not because they believe in Human Rights - but because the SCC locked up many of thier republican comrades.

Regardless, the fact is that theres a number of organisations who have objected to the SCC, who are not republicans.

Odhinn · 11-02-2020 05:18PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Nope I would like SF TD's to behave as respectable TD's, and not like gombeens pandering to vey dubious individuals in thier party base.

Is that too much to ask? I suppose in a way it is difficult to stop them from the mask slipping. A litmus test of sorts.

Yeah, as I said, you want SF to not be a republican party, disavow its past and would probably be happy to see them dissolve out of existence entirely.

suicide_circus · 11-02-2020 05:19PM

One thing i'm learning is that nothing is ever Sinn Fein's fault.

James Brown · 11-02-2020 05:24PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

One thing i'm learning is that nothing is ever Sinn Fein's fault.

i disagree. Every party needs to be held to account. Maybe you're thinking of Fine Gael?

blanch152 · 11-02-2020 05:31PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

That's nonsense. You try do the right thing. That's what makes character. You don't know until you try. It was the right move IMO.

Boss, IMO all you do is try attack and score points.
Look at this. The other lad called it silly games. I explained why I don't think it was by citing Foster/cash for ash.
You come in saying she's still there. like them failing means what? They shouldn't have tried or na na, na, na na? Give over.

I am saying it was a very bad call and completely unjustified.

They walked out of Stormont to get Foster, no other reason, no principle, no policy, just an opportunity to get a politician they didn't like. It is never the right thing to base politics on personalities.

That wasn't enough reason to waste three years, and in any event, it failed.

gormdubhgorm · 11-02-2020 05:38PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Thanks for the links. I have access to the internet.
They represented the tax payer by holding Foster to account. I can see how that's silly games to a FG supporter.

Wow - more deflection misdirection and lies at least have the decency to read the links before you comment?

There was no holding Foster to account from SF what they did was create a needless Irish languge act issue. Which SF could try and hide behind to annoy foster. Grand it would be nice if Foster WAS held to account as is just and proper.

But where was the clamor for people to be held to account over the Paul Quinn murder etc. Suddenly SF were very quiet for holding people to account there and resorted to discrediting an innocent man

I ain't nitpicking sh*t. I've answered. You keep making inferences.
If you've proof, great. This isn't a defence by the way. You blustering about SF and spinning yarns will get called out. Try it on another party, you'll get the same responses. This is all designed to cover up for FG and give FF a free pass IMO.

You plainly have not answered questions and just repeated the SF myth that 'FFG' as you call it are the cause of all the country's ills. Yet you deny FG's successes in government. And somehow call for accountability for precieved ills yet, you seem to let SF get away with zero accountability at all!

All the waster, scumbag, ill educated comments have been from FG supporters to anyone voted SF. That's seemingly FG politics.

I have never called any SF voted a waster or scumbag. But you have to wonder why that stereotype is there? I am not a FG supporter I am a floating voter who votes for who is the most stable and worthy of being in power.
FG politics do not have to deflection attention from murdering an innocent man and cover ups of same.

If SF really want to be taken seriously - you are right about one thing there needs to be accountability and ownership of republicanism warts and all. Be decent.

FrancieBrady · 11-02-2020 05:40PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Considering the IRA is a secret paramiltary organisation the burden of proof you place on me is high/
Any chance I have of joining Óglaigh na hÉireann will be severely dented by this thread.

So I am not sure what prove you are asking for? Who do you think are the brains behind SF - the army council or former army council? They just did not start tending thier gardens or playing golf/

Of course I believe both those lads were promoting the provos. David C in particular gave a speech praising them for jayus sake. Although the song get out you black and tans seems harmless on it's own. It has a different more sinister meaning when former IRA man and prisoner Dessie E sings it.
Proof of the fact leopards do not change thier spots?

So you don't know if the IRA still exist but you think he was promoting them as a 'live' organisation?

I think the real 'sinister' thing is that people (and not unimportantly, our former Government parties) are encouraging a group they believe is controlled by an illegal, paramilitary organisation (the existence of which is totally anti-GFA btw) to go into government in northern Ireland.

Don't you think? Are you fond of voting for hypocrits?

P.S. I don't believe the IRA exist anymore (based on the Independent bodies set up to monitor this) so I don't think the government was hypocritical in that respect. They are when it comes to who justifies a government role here though.

Come off it in many republicans eyes the RA can do no real wrong, they might refer to unfortunate mistakes at most for a killing here or there. What Cullinane did will stay on the internet for life - he only did it because he did not know he was being filmed. How do you think anyone who has to negotiate with him in future will see him? A wannabe provo, a bit of an eejit, not very savvy?

Cullinane apologised if it caused offence, that wasn't his intention. He didn't apologise, and made it clear he wasn't, apologising for the content of what he said.

I am not getting into this again my views on it are well covered on the relevant thread.

Well, what are your views on what is appropriate remembrance then? Given that nobody on any side is going to go for your history wipe project?

James Brown · 11-02-2020 05:40PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I am saying it was a very bad call and completely unjustified.

They walked out of Stormont to get Foster, no other reason, no principle, no policy, just an opportunity to get a politician they didn't like. It is never the right thing to base politics on personalities.

That wasn't enough reason to waste three years, and in any event, it failed.

That's cool. I disagree. Hardly 'silly games' as the poster put it.
You could argue that on every issue in any government.
Ripping off the tax payer should not be ignored IMO.
It sure did.

gormdubhgorm · 11-02-2020 05:41PM

Odhinn wrote: »

Yeah, as I said, you want SF to not be a republican party, disavow its past and would probably be happy to see them dissolve out of existence entirely.

Not true I said take 'ownership' of it responsibly.

SF are like that wild young relative, who you would have to keep an eye on night out. Not very mature or sensible. But they will slowly grow out of it or die off.

James Brown · 11-02-2020 05:44PM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Not true I said take 'ownership' of it responsibly.

SF are like that wild young relative, who you would have to keep an eye on night out. Not very mature or sensible. But they will slowly grow out of it or die off.

Reminded me of this:

Taoiseach's nephew jailed for burglary, drugs and car theft

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/taoiseachs-nephew-jailed-for-burglary-drugs-and-car-theft-29070671.html

Not politics. And FG are not responsible. I will not be slipping in little digs about cars being robbed by FG now they'll lose the government cars.

What have we come to

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