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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion
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half a billion in the spin doctors pockets and not an inch of railway0
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it was the fibre that saved that route in the end, otherwise it was gone.Yep, ESAT (now BT) ran fibre along the North Kerry line in the late 90s and it's been in use since then. Didn't stop the scummy land-grabbers extending their gardens/farmyards over sections of the permanent way though.
Fortunately they've mostly been dealt with and construction work on the next phases of the GST (Tralee-Fenit & Listowel-Abbeyfeale) is currently progressing.
Even at that, there is one guy who persists in using the greenway as a cattle yard.0 -
meanwhile, a claim on fb just now states that poiticians of all parties have got behind re-opening the WRC.
So where does the truth lie? Supporters of the Greenway claim on here that only a couple of politiicans back the WRC
So where does the truth lie? Lying to your own supporters is very foolish0 -
meanwhile, a claim on fb just now states that poiticians of all parties have got behind re-opening the WRC.
So where does the truth lie? Supporters of the Greenway claim on here that only a couple of politiicans back the WRC
So where does the truth lie? Lying to your own supporters is very foolish
Very good question, Isambard. And may I post a rather long-winded political response, even though I will not be voting on the the 8th due to circumstances beyond my control.
It is claimed that one of the chief Quiet Man Greenway "champions" is Minister Ciarán Cannon (FG), likely because of his mainstream and social media presence, and perhaps by his attendance at the Tuam greenway event last year. But has he really been the QMG's chief advocate? Or (as I would submit) has he inadvertently doomed it by a prior populous intervention?
Let's turn the clock back to 2015, long before the idea of greenway spandex dollars danced in the minds of East Galway folk. At that time, the issue was a far away greenway in Kerry - one that farmers were none-to-happy about, because it relied heavily on a CPO approach. (As an aside, are not CPOs warranted if they are needed to deliver such valuable tourism infrastructure)?
In waltzes Minister Cannon, who astutely acknowledges the bad vibes over the Kerry CPOs, and sees an opportunity to cash in on the same controversy that undoubtedly was going to occur with the Athlone to Galway greenway, which was then only in the infancy of planning. Minister Cannon (as a sympathetic representative of rural farmers - the constituency du jour) cleverly meets with the landowners and reinforces their fears that CPOs are just awful, that their lands would be severed, and that they "just weren't being listened to." He offers no alternative route or process, other than a generic one which would just suit everyone to a tee (completely ignoring the stark reality that the only way you will get a square metre of a Galway farmer's land is by a CPO). And the conclusion of Minister Cannon's intervention is a call to Minister for Transport to abandon the greenway altogether!
"Having met with numerous landowners I am now in no doubt that the current route is completely unviable and should simply be abandoned as an option for the delivery of a new greenway” - Minister Ciarán Cannon (https://irishcycle.com/2015/09/22/td-calls-for-end-to-current-dublin-to-galway-greenway-route/)
Fast forward to 2020. We now have a National Greenways Strategy, where the blocked Galway to Dublin greenway is the "centerpiece." We also have the same EuroVelo Route 2 (The Capitols Route) that is equally blocked (hopefully just delayed) similarly by Minister Cannon's interference. So it's no surprise that the good minister wholeheartedly supports a cheap and easy substitute greenway in East Galway (scavenging a rail line with reactivation potential) to compensate for his prior blunder.
But it's too late. The Galway-to-Athlone link is sufficiently mired in controversy to the degree that delivery will be delayed for years. That is an unfortunate turn of events for Minister Cannon, as the defunct route was to pass though his own town of Loughrea! And the irony of it all is that the absence of that Greenway negates the potential for connectivity to the QMG idea. So, perhaps the question to be asked this election is, "Who is the only candidate that has called on a Minister for Transport to "abandon" a fully supported and funded greenway that is in the National Strategy and part of the EuroVelo?" Minister Ciarán Cannon - that's who, because he wanted to placate East Galway farmers.
One thing that can be said about the Quiet Man Greenway campaign is that they are on constant alert for deception, trickery, tomfoolery, and the like. They accuse Sean Canney (whom I've never met) of this, even though he has constantly and simply stated that he supports Rail for Tuam, and also greenways where possible. The only "fudge" I have seen in this process so far is Minister Cannon prying his way into a meeting with the consultant preparing (what should be) an independent rail review, with bogus ideas and statistics, to the effect that there are "9 passengers per train from Ennis to Limerick." Honestly!
So we do need to ask ourselves whether Minister Ciarán Cannon is really so wonderful, and whether Sean Canney is really so awful, or are we perhaps deceived by a seasoned politician conveniently using a FB group administrated by out-of-county spite mongers?0 -
Can I interest you in a tinfoil hat, they come in many sizes0
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Deleted User wrote: »Can I interest you in a tinfoil hat, they come in many sizes
And you are quick to fashion them for those with whom you disagree.0 -
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There are mischief makers on both sides. This is top drawer in fairness to you. Practically all of it balderdash though.Very good question, Isambard. And may I post a rather long-winded political response, even though I will not be voting on the the 8th due to circumstances beyond my control.
It is claimed that one of the chief Quiet Man Greenway "champions" is Minister Ciarán Cannon (FG), likely because of his mainstream and social media presence, and perhaps by his attendance at the Tuam greenway event last year. But has he really been the QMG's chief advocate? Or (as I would submit) has he inadvertently doomed it by a prior populous intervention?
Let's turn the clock back to 2015, long before the idea of greenway spandex dollars danced in the minds of East Galway folk. At that time, the issue was a far away greenway in Kerry - one that farmers were none-to-happy about, because it relied heavily on a CPO approach. (As an aside, are not CPOs warranted if they are needed to deliver such valuable tourism infrastructure)?
In waltzes Minister Cannon, who astutely acknowledges the bad vibes over the Kerry CPOs, and sees an opportunity to cash in on the same controversy that undoubtedly was going to occur with the Athlone to Galway greenway, which was then only in the infancy of planning. Minister Cannon (as a sympathetic representative of rural farmers - the constituency du jour) cleverly meets with the landowners and reinforces their fears that CPOs are just awful, that their lands would be severed, and that they "just weren't being listened to." He offers no alternative route or process, other than a generic one which would just suit everyone to a tee (completely ignoring the stark reality that the only way you will get a square metre of a Galway farmer's land is by a CPO). And the conclusion of Minister Cannon's intervention is a call to Minister for Transport to abandon the greenway altogether!
"Having met with numerous landowners I am now in no doubt that the current route is completely unviable and should simply be abandoned as an option for the delivery of a new greenway” - Minister Ciarán Cannon (https://irishcycle.com/2015/09/22/td-calls-for-end-to-current-dublin-to-galway-greenway-route/)
Fast forward to 2020. We now have a National Greenways Strategy, where the blocked Galway to Dublin greenway is the "centerpiece." We also have the same EuroVelo Route 2 (The Capitols Route) that is equally blocked (hopefully just delayed) similarly by Minister Cannon's interference. So it's no surprise that the good minister wholeheartedly supports a cheap and easy substitute greenway in East Galway (scavenging a rail line with reactivation potential) to compensate for his prior blunder.
But it's too late. The Galway-to-Athlone link is sufficiently mired in controversy to the degree that delivery will be delayed for years. That is an unfortunate turn of events for Minister Cannon, as the defunct route was to pass though his own town of Loughrea! And the irony of it all is that the absence of that Greenway negates the potential for connectivity to the QMG idea. So, perhaps the question to be asked this election is, "Who is the only candidate that has called on a Minister for Transport to "abandon" a fully supported and funded greenway that is in the National Strategy and part of the EuroVelo?" Minister Ciarán Cannon - that's who, because he wanted to placate East Galway farmers.
One thing that can be said about the Quiet Man Greenway campaign is that they are on constant alert for deception, trickery, tomfoolery, and the like. They accuse Sean Canney (whom I've never met) of this, even though he has constantly and simply stated that he supports Rail for Tuam, and also greenways where possible. The only "fudge" I have seen in this process so far is Minister Cannon prying his way into a meeting with the consultant preparing (what should be) an independent rail review, with bogus ideas and statistics, to the effect that there are "9 passengers per train from Ennis to Limerick." Honestly!
So we do need to ask ourselves whether Minister Ciarán Cannon is really so wonderful, and whether Sean Canney is really so awful, or are we perhaps deceived by a seasoned politician conveniently using a FB group administrated by out-of-county spite mongers?0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Only those with whackadoodle conspiracy theories with no factual evidence to back them up
Unless you have something to share in the way of evidence to back up the conspiracy theory? I'll happily review it
There's no conspiracy. Cannon's actions were his and his alone. And there's no complicated theory here, either. The simple "facts" of the Galway-Dublin Greenway are:
1. Farmers in Galway and other areas of the country were already (and will always be) concerned, and outright opposed to the use of CPOs for greenway land acquisition.
2. On several occasions in 2015, Cannon met with landowners (farmers) along the greenway route, which resulted in a political promise that that their lands would not be CPOd for a greenway.
3. Cannon called for the then Minister for Transport Paschal Donohoe to "abandon" the planned greenway because the route was "completely unviable." (Think about that - the entire route!)
4. The controversy flared to the degree that the project was indeed deferred, and Galway's Greenway funds went to other segments.
5. Then, because the project was sufficiently banjaxed at that point, the Minister removed it from the Council's purview and gave it to TII to deliver. He also had to claw back Cannon's blanket "no-CPO" promise, but of course, the original route was too tarnished to reconsider at that point.
I don't believe that Cannon set out to intentionally block the greenway. It was just an easy score when it happened, and at a time when greenways ranked much lower in the local hierarchy of concerns. I don't dislike the man personally, but I can't stand his political muckraking. He seems to function best against the backdrop of a grumpy mob of his own creation. But hey, if he's your man...
What we needed at the time was a true "greenway champion" to tirelessly tout the benefits of greenways to our towns and villages, and to reassure land owners that all measures would be taken to minimise land severance and disruption. What we got were calls to cancel and abandon the planned greenway in favour of no alternative route.0 -
I agree about the need for a greenway champion, the issue is that the campaign for greenways has descended into rail versus trail arguments rather than looking for opportunities to build new off road routes.0
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Muckyboots wrote: »A bit like Benjamin Netanyahu talking to Palestinians there.
While he remains Israeli PM he needs to...0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Only those with whackadoodle conspiracy theories with no factual evidence to back them up
Unless you have something to share in the way of evidence to back up the conspiracy theory? I'll happily review it
Crikey, the dogs on the street know that Cannon meddled in the Eurovelo project, holding meetings etc. For those who want greenway to run along side rail (not much opposition to the idea, just not at the expense of rail), from some of these articles he positively pooh hoo's rail.
https://irishcycle.com/2014/12/15/compulsory-purchase-orders-to-be-used-for-dublin-galway-greenway-if-necessary-says-minister/
https://irishcycle.com/2015/09/22/td-calls-for-end-to-current-dublin-to-galway-greenway-route/
https://connachttribune.ie/minister-cannon-comes-under-fire-for-supporting-greenway-000/
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/need-for-compulsory-purchase-orders-on-greenway-route-cant-be-ruled-out/
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Dublin-Galway_Greenway
https://connachttribune.ie/cannon-rules-out-cpos-for-future-greenway-routes/
https://www.westmeathindependent.ie/news/roundup/articles/2019/07/15/4176982-athlone-to-galway-cycleway-plan-resurrected/
https://www.advertiser.ie/Galway/article/108698/galway-tops-greenway-development-application-list
From reading the above articles, I see him as someone who's talking out both sides of his mouth.... I also notice the media that is not in his electoral jurisdiction has a lot less 'drama' in the story (Westmeath Independent)0 -
meanwhile, a claim on fb just now states that poiticians of all parties have got behind re-opening the WRC.
So where does the truth lie? Supporters of the Greenway claim on here that only a couple of politiicans back the WRC
So where does the truth lie? Lying to your own supporters is very foolish
errr wrong. It is only in Mayo that is seems the entire political establishment is living in a deluded world. In Sligo all serious candidates with a chance of being elected are behind the greenway, including one candidate independent Marian Harking a former stalwart of the WRC made the most remarkable statement in favour of the greenway. There is a majority in Sligo County county council that supports the greenway and it seems there is a similar majority now in Galway Coco, witness by the fact that the small cohort opposed did not call for a vote on some recent pro-greenway motions, why? Because they know the game is up on Galway coco, it is now a greenway favourable council. Of the TD hopefuls in Galway East we know who opposes the Greenway, Canney for reasons of his own and Sinn Fein because they cannot disobey party orders. The remaining candidates including all those from two main parties fully support it.
In Mayo, where I think you are drawing your comment from, a report this week said all the candidates in Mayo said they support the WRC, well bully for them. The FG manifesto actually refers to the WRC, saying whether it happens or not is entirely subject to the outcome of the infamous Rail Report we have been barred from seeing before the election. The FF candidate does not even mention the phrase WRC. Lisa Chambers claim she has supported the railway ever since she became a Cllr. Wrong she told me in an off the record telephone conversation in 2014 that it had no chance of ever being built. The bandwagon of promising the undeliverable WRC seems to be still in favour with the denialists from Mayo.
In conclusion, you have made a rather sweeping statement about all parties getting behind the WRC in fact you are talking total and utter bulls**t. You don't happen to be a Mayo candidate do you?0 -
Very good question, Isambard. And may I post a rather long-winded political response, even though I will not be voting on the the 8th due to circumstances beyond my control.
It is claimed that one of the chief Quiet Man Greenway "champions" is Minister Ciarán Cannon (FG), likely because of his mainstream and social media presence, and perhaps by his attendance at the Tuam greenway event last year. But has he really been the QMG's chief advocate? Or (as I would submit) has he inadvertently doomed it by a prior populous intervention?
Let's turn the clock back to 2015, long before the idea of greenway spandex dollars danced in the minds of East Galway folk. At that time, the issue was a far away greenway in Kerry - one that farmers were none-to-happy about, because it relied heavily on a CPO approach. (As an aside, are not CPOs warranted if they are needed to deliver such valuable tourism infrastructure)?
In waltzes Minister Cannon, who astutely acknowledges the bad vibes over the Kerry CPOs, and sees an opportunity to cash in on the same controversy that undoubtedly was going to occur with the Athlone to Galway greenway, which was then only in the infancy of planning. Minister Cannon (as a sympathetic representative of rural farmers - the constituency du jour) cleverly meets with the landowners and reinforces their fears that CPOs are just awful, that their lands would be severed, and that they "just weren't being listened to." He offers no alternative route or process, other than a generic one which would just suit everyone to a tee (completely ignoring the stark reality that the only way you will get a square metre of a Galway farmer's land is by a CPO). And the conclusion of Minister Cannon's intervention is a call to Minister for Transport to abandon the greenway altogether!
"Having met with numerous landowners I am now in no doubt that the current route is completely unviable and should simply be abandoned as an option for the delivery of a new greenway” - Minister Ciarán Cannon (https://irishcycle.com/2015/09/22/td-calls-for-end-to-current-dublin-to-galway-greenway-route/)
Fast forward to 2020. We now have a National Greenways Strategy, where the blocked Galway to Dublin greenway is the "centerpiece." We also have the same EuroVelo Route 2 (The Capitols Route) that is equally blocked (hopefully just delayed) similarly by Minister Cannon's interference. So it's no surprise that the good minister wholeheartedly supports a cheap and easy substitute greenway in East Galway (scavenging a rail line with reactivation potential) to compensate for his prior blunder.
But it's too late. The Galway-to-Athlone link is sufficiently mired in controversy to the degree that delivery will be delayed for years. That is an unfortunate turn of events for Minister Cannon, as the defunct route was to pass though his own town of Loughrea! And the irony of it all is that the absence of that Greenway negates the potential for connectivity to the QMG idea. So, perhaps the question to be asked this election is, "Who is the only candidate that has called on a Minister for Transport to "abandon" a fully supported and funded greenway that is in the National Strategy and part of the EuroVelo?" Minister Ciarán Cannon - that's who, because he wanted to placate East Galway farmers.
One thing that can be said about the Quiet Man Greenway campaign is that they are on constant alert for deception, trickery, tomfoolery, and the like. They accuse Sean Canney (whom I've never met) of this, even though he has constantly and simply stated that he supports Rail for Tuam, and also greenways where possible. The only "fudge" I have seen in this process so far is Minister Cannon prying his way into a meeting with the consultant preparing (what should be) an independent rail review, with bogus ideas and statistics, to the effect that there are "9 passengers per train from Ennis to Limerick." Honestly!
So we do need to ask ourselves whether Minister Ciarán Cannon is really so wonderful, and whether Sean Canney is really so awful, or are we perhaps deceived by a seasoned politician conveniently using a FB group administrated by out-of-county spite mongers?
Got to admit, the hilarity on this thread has now passed a new level, what a complete and utter load of bollox0 -
Got to admit, the hilarity on this thread has now passed a new level, what a complete and utter load of bollox
That’s a novel way of saying you have no answer to the very valid points made. Meanwhile why the west on crack page? Were you bored? Did you have a lot of cross dresser pics on your hard drive that needed an airing?0 -
Lisa Chambers claim she has supported the railway ever since she became a Cllr. Wrong she told me in an off the record telephone conversation in 2014 that it had no chance of ever being built.
Message loud and clear then - never have an off the record conversation with the Greenway campaign because it will be on the record eventually!! #GrassNotGrassroots0 -
That’s a novel way of saying you have no answer to the very valid points made. Meanwhile why the west on crack page? Were you bored? Did you have a lot of cross dresser pics on your hard drive that needed an airing?
Ewwwwww! What a creepy, sleazy FB group! Sexualizing the debate over a greenway? Really? And then insulting the citizens of Galway all along the way. Way out of bounds!!0 -
Lord Glentoran wrote: »Message loud and clear then - never have an off the record conversation with the Greenway campaign because it will be on the record eventually!! #GrassNotGrassroots
Indeed, candidates running for council were hounded by certian folk in the Greenway Campaign, their correspondence they thought private, was screen shot and published.
I'd give them a 'Wide Berth'.0 -
That’s a novel way of saying you have no answer to the very valid points made. Meanwhile why the west on crack page? Were you bored? Did you have a lot of cross dresser pics on your hard drive that needed an airing?
That page is nothing to do with me mate, but I do find it quite funny, anyway no worries you will soon have an SF/WOT government who can deliver the piped dream of the WRC; SF are the only party actually promising its delivery, and as for the not being prepared to argue with that overlong post, a few posts up and calling is complete bollox; It is simply because I am bored making the same point over and over again, so better to simply call it as it is, a complete and utter load of bollox. Anyway if SF deliver the promised land to the commandant in Claremorris then fair cop to you all. Hey ho on we go. Im off to a safe house.0 -
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Sean Canney was on Sean O'Rourke this morning. A propos of nothing, he mentioned the WRC, so he obviously thinks it's a vote winner for him.
[The following quotes are "words to the effect"].
"But no-one's using it", says Sean.
"Over four hundred thousand used it last year", says Canney, betting that a "them above in Dubbalin" journalist won't know that he's including pre-existing routes in that figure.
"Are you including people going from Athenry to Galway in that", says Sean. "Sure they're using the existing Dublin line".
Canney admits that he is including it, but then says that the Ennis->Athenry section is the "fastest-growing" section on the rail network.
Indeed Mr Canney. If half a bus load were using it previously, and three quarters of a busload are using it now, that might make it fast-growing, but that still doesn't make a full busload and still doesn't justify the spending of over one hundred million euro in Capital Expenditure, not to mention the ongoing Operational Expenditure including the massive subsidies on the train fare.0 -
Sean Canney was on Sean O'Rourke this morning. A propos of nothing, he mentioned the WRC, so he obviously thinks it's a vote winner for him.
[The following quotes are "words to the effect"].
"But no-one's using it", says Sean.
"Over four hundred thousand used it last year", says Canney, betting that a "them above in Dubbalin" journalist won't know that he's including pre-existing routes in that figure.
"Are you including people going from Athenry to Galway in that", says Sean. "Sure they're using the existing Dublin line".
Canney admits that he is including it, but then says that the Ennis->Athenry section is the "fastest-growing" section on the rail network.
Indeed Mr Canney. If half a bus load were using it previously, and three quarters of a busload are using it now, that might make it fast-growing, but that still doesn't make a full busload and still doesn't justify the spending of over one hundred million euro in Capital Expenditure, not to mention the ongoing Operational Expenditure including the massive subsidies on the train fare.
I timed my stroll down to the pub on Sunday to coincide with the 18:53 service to Limerick and there were 80 people on the train departing Athenry.0 -
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The plural of anecdotes is data, and the data definitively refutes your anecdote.
One busy-ish train does not a viable line make.
Isn't "anecdotes" already plural? And isn't "datum" the the singular of "data?" Regardless, we don't need any because for some, ridership can never be high enough to justify reactivation of the WRC. (Because if it was, we would have to re-open our minds, and we can't have that).0 -
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Sean Canney was on Sean O'Rourke this morning. A propos of nothing, he mentioned the WRC, so he obviously thinks it's a vote winner for him.
It is. Truth is, everyone want's to see something, anything on the line. The Western Rail Corridor Campaign has been going a lot longer than the greenway. Sadly Varadkar kicked the project down the road, so folks got disillusioned.
You are underestimating the support for rail, the backlash that may come from the anti-Canney posts on the Quietman Greenway Page, and the cynicism their campaign is stirring. It just looks like a dirty politics page with folk outside the constituency trying to manipulate the vote over one issue.
https://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2019/03/29/4171738-government-accused-of-blocking-eu-funding-for-western-rail-corridor/0 -
It is. Truth is, everyone want's to see something, anything on the line. The Western Rail Corridor Campaign has been going a lot longer than the greenway. Sadly Varadkar kicked the project down the road, so folks got disillusioned.
You are underestimating the support for rail, the backlash that may come from the anti-Canney posts on the Quietman Greenway Page, and the cynicism their campaign is stirring. It just looks like a dirty politics page with folk outside the constituency trying to manipulate the vote over one issue.
https://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2019/03/29/4171738-government-accused-of-blocking-eu-funding-for-western-rail-corridor/
Simply put, it's down to numbers. 40 turned up in Athenry for a WRC meeting by WOT/Sinn Fein and 3,000 turned up in Tuam for a march supporting the greenway. These are the local people you are talking about, it's easy to see where the support is
Also, the WRC does not qualify for TEN-T funding no matter what way you try to dress it up, it just simply does not meet the criteria0 -
It is. Truth is, everyone want's to see something, anything on the line. The Western Rail Corridor Campaign has been going a lot longer than the greenway. Sadly Varadkar kicked the project down the road, so folks got disillusioned.
You are underestimating the support for rail, the backlash that may come from the anti-Canney posts on the Quietman Greenway Page, and the cynicism their campaign is stirring. It just looks like a dirty politics page with folk outside the constituency trying to manipulate the vote over one issue.
https://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2019/03/29/4171738-government-accused-of-blocking-eu-funding-for-western-rail-corridor/
The WRC campaign has been running longer...and your point is? does that make the WRC campaign right and the greenway campaign wrong.
Re your other comments re these dreadful outsiders on the campaign trail dem outsiders are so dangerous, fair play to them whoever they are, it seems that dreadful FB page is being read and posts highlighting Mr Canney have been shared extraordinarily, mind you I still suspect he will be returned.0 -
You may be right, but several thousand people marching in Tuam tells me that you are underestimating the support for a Greenway on the route.You are underestimating the support for rail
I don't know about that because I'm not on Facebook, so a page on Facebook hasn't influenced me in the slightest.the Quietman Greenway Page ... looks like a dirty politics page with folk outside the constituency trying to manipulate the vote over one issue.
And speaking of "folk outside the constituency trying to manipulate the vote over one issue"? You're having a laugh aren't you? Because that's what the Mayo gang have been trying to do for years.0 -
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