Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Greaney

Given all the talk about roads & buses instead of rail we've missed a couple of issues. The roads from Ardrahan toCraughwell to Athenry are not very suitable for buses. The train is used by a huge amount of students from Craughwell & Ardrahan to Athenry. The train can be used by both students & the general public so if you look at that in the grand scheme of things, it's a very efficient use of rolling stock that was going to go between Limerick & Ennis, and Athenry & Galway anyway.

It's telling the Quietman greenway campaign hardly thinking of cycle routes between Loughrea, Craughwell, Oranmore, Athenry etc. Since the Eurovelo was going to go through Loughrea (it suffered some delay with it's public consultations, and I'm putting that politely), some other communities are eyeing it to see can it be brought to their town I believe its supposed to also run through Craughwell

Del.Monte wrote: »

For a more deserving part of the rail network read - anything serving the Greater Dublin Area. Buses are good enough for culchies as sure where would they be going anyway.

Indeed, that's a fair statement.....

Dublin to Belfast train line receiving investment, specifically EU funding.

In contrast to the attitude to the Western Rail Corridors investment

donvito99

Greaney wrote: »

Indeed, that's a fair statement.....

Dublin to Belfast train line receiving investment, specifically EU funding.

In contrast to the attitude to the Western Rail Corridors investment

God forbid the Northern line, connecting the two largest cities on the island and carrying the bulk of the networks commuters on an unreliable, congested and slow alignment should receive funding in priority to Ardrahan, Craughwell, Tuam...

Greaney

donvito99 wrote: »

God forbid the Northern line, connecting the two largest cities on the island and carrying the bulk of the networks commuters on an unreliable, congested and slow alignment should receive funding in priority to Ardrahan, Craughwell, Tuam...

Oh no, I don't think the Western rail corridor runs from Ardrahan to Tuam, it's about Derry to Cork!! I've got my eye on the bigger picture, not just our little cluster of parishes. I wouldn't underestimate that 'trade corridor' with more airports, colleges and ports along it's route.

Muckyboots

Greaney wrote: »

Oh no, I don't think the Western rail corridor runs from Ardrahan to Tuam, it's about Derry to Cork!! I've got my eye on the bigger picture, not just our little cluster of parishes. I wouldn't underestimate that 'trade corridor' with more airports, colleges and ports along it's route.

Derry-Cork is not comparable in any way to Belfast-Dublin. Airport to airport,
mystical port cargos, trade arcs - that's the crazy dream stuff that makes it seem unbelievable and unachievable. I see only abandonment and lost opportunity without a greenway option on the table. And it is on the table.

Sligo eye

Muckyboots wrote: »

Derry-Cork is not comparable in any way to Belfast-Dublin. Airport to airport,
mystical port cargos, trade arcs - that's the crazy dream stuff that makes it seem unbelievable and unachievable. I see only abandonment and lost opportunity without a greenway option on the table. And it is on the table.

Anything would be possible but sadly the leader(s) of the Greenway campaign see fit to promote their campaign through a combination of anti rail rhetoric, personal attacks and a bizarre Facebook page featuring fat men wearing dresses and lipstick.

And it might be worth reviewing the Ireland 2040 strategy; there’s a push to increase the population on the western half of the country. Providing a direct rail link joining up Cork, Limerick, Galway, Sligo and Derry makes sense and with climate change in mind, is vital.

Isambard

Sligo eye wrote: »

Anything would be possible but sadly the leader(s) of the Greenway campaign see fit to promote their campaign through a combination of anti rail rhetoric, personal attacks and a bizarre Facebook page featuring fat men wearing dresses and lipstick.

And it might be worth reviewing the Ireland 2040 strategy; there’s a push to increase the population on the western half of the country. Providing a direct rail link joining up Cork, Limerick, Galway, Sligo and Derry makes sense and with climate change in mind, is vital.

there are already rail links to all those places and most journeys are do-able with a change in Dublin or without if the will and potential passenger numbers were there.

Sligo eye

Isambard wrote: »

there are already rail links to all those places and most journeys are do-able with a change in Dublin or without if the will and potential passenger numbers were there.

You’ve been making that Extraordinarily pedantic point for years and it still doesn’t stack up.

Using your suggestion it is adequate to take a train from say Limerick to Sligo via Dublin. Or Athenry to Derry via Dublin and Ballymena and Coleraine.

Nuts isn’t it?

A direct rail route between the western cities and including Donegal benefits us all. And that is the simple and straightforward request we are all making.

Isambard

well the two cities are already linked by rail....What else you got?

PeadarCo

Greaney wrote: »

Oh no, I don't think the Western rail corridor runs from Ardrahan to Tuam, it's about Derry to Cork!! I've got my eye on the bigger picture, not just our little cluster of parishes. I wouldn't underestimate that 'trade corridor' with more airports, colleges and ports along it's route.

But this misses the point. Derry and Cork are not only far further away, they are far smaller cities and a direct connection runs through less densely populated areas, with limited direct traffic between the two cities. The lines are chalk and cheese. Derry to Cork is something you would do if you had infinite resources. However the government doesn't. Dublin to Belfast upgrades are something that arguably needs to happen. Improving the line even from Dundalk to Dublin City centre would bring massive benefits for commuters.

Sligo eye

PeadarCo wrote: »

But this misses the point. Derry and Cork are not only far further away, they are far smaller cities and a direct connection runs through less densely populated areas, with limited direct traffic between the two cities. The lines are chalk and cheese. Derry to Cork is something you would do if you had infinite resources. However the government doesn't. Dublin to Belfast upgrades are something that arguably needs to happen. Improving the line even from Dundalk to Dublin City centre would bring massive benefits for commuters.

I’m sorry but that misses the point of having direct connections between the western cities. If it wasn’t required the M17/18 would never have been built and the campaign for a motorway between Cork and Limerick would never have happened.

It seems that different rules appear to be applied when we talk about rail expansion compared to road expansion. Both modes are needed.

PeadarCo

Sligo eye wrote: »

I’m sorry but that misses the point of having direct connections between the western cities. If it wasn’t required the M17/18 would never have been built and the campaign for a motorway between Cork and Limerick would never have happened.

It seems that different rules appear to be applied when we talk about rail expansion compared to road expansion. Both modes are needed.

So just because we waste money on roads we should waste it on railways? Is that really want opposition to the Greenway boils down to?

Isambard

the M18/17 only runs as far as Tuam , for good reason,and it's debatable if even that was needed, it was almost empty last time I went that way

marno21

Isambard wrote: »

the M18/17 only runs as far as Tuam , for good reason,and it's debatable if even that was needed, it was almost empty last time I went that way

If it had ran closer to the N17 alignment it would be busier. It is inconvenient for a lot of Galway-Tuam traffic which doesn't use it as a result.

Meanwhile, Sligo County Council are driving head first into a new 55km dual carriageway between Knock and Collooney. Driving between Knock and Sligo in 40 minutes will kill any rail plants stone dead. http://www.sligococo.ie/N17KCAEC

donvito99

At least a Western Motorway from Derry to Cork allows for the movement of freight and passengers for great swathes of the North West, West and South that aren't just Claremorris, Tuam, Craughwell, Sixmilebridge….

If speeds and frequencies on the mainlines were improved with double-tracking and other investment, you could have legitimately good journey times between the main cities that cannot be provided by the WRC between say Limerick and Galway. e.g. Limerick to Limerick Junction, then join a much higher speed and more frequent Cork to Dublin service, then a much higher speed and more frequent Dublin to Galway service. More interchange allows for much greater usability of the whole network and it'd still beat the WRC for time and pax numbers no doubt...

ezstreet5

donvito99 wrote: »

At least a Western Motorway from Derry to Cork allows for the movement of freight and passengers for great swathes of the North West, West and South that aren't just Claremorris, Tuam, Craughwell, Sixmilebridge….

For the penny pinchers on here, it might be worth mentioning that motorways are significantly more expensive than rail line reactivations. I believe the Gort-Tuam motorway cost €550 million for 53 km of roadway (a whopping €10.3 million per km).

Phase 1 of the WRC went wildly overbudget, but (I believe) still came in at only €107 million for 58 km of railway (€1.8 million per km).

donvito99

ezstreet5 wrote: »

For the penny pinchers on here, it might be worth mentioning that motorways are significantly more expensive than rail line reactivations. I believe the Gort-Tuam motorway cost €550 million for 53 km of roadway (a whopping €10.3 million per km).

Phase 1 of the WRC went wildly overbudget, but (I believe) still came in at only €107 million for 58 km of railway (€1.8 million per km).

We should be building things that are useful for lots of people, not just reactivating infrastructure for the sake people whose town used to be served by a railway (when railways were the be all and end all of moving people and produce).

Greaney

donvito99 wrote: »

We should be building things that are useful for lots of people, not just reactivating infrastructure for the sake people whose town used to be served by a railway (when railways were the be all and end all of moving people and produce).

Motorways aren't much use for folk who don't drive.

Irish Rail slashing student prices explains the significant upturn in students using the line.

Finally, most of the comments here lately still want everything to go through Dublin!! The cost to the rest of the nation in over developing Dublin we are already feeling acutely. Most tourists never leave the capital, so the tourism argument is very short sighted....

donvito99

Greaney wrote: »

Motorways aren't much use for folk who don't drive.

You're not suggesting motorways can't be used by local, commuter and intercity bus and coach services, are you?

Finally, most of the comments here lately still want everything to go through Dublin!! .

No they don't. If we upgrade lines (which happen to lead to Dublin), Portarlington, Limerick Junction, Mallow etc. will offer fast, frequent timely connections between Tralee/Killarney, Cork, Limerick, Galway etc. - that is if money otherwise spent on re-opening meandering, slow, single-track railways from nowhere to Ardrahan to a crossroads to Athenry keep getting funding was redirected into the mainline single track railways in rural Ireland bursting at the seams.

intellectual dosser

donvito99 wrote: »

At least a Western Motorway from Derry to Cork allows for the movement of freight and passengers for great swathes of the North West, West and South that aren't just Claremorris, Tuam, Craughwell, Sixmilebridge….

If speeds and frequencies on the mainlines were improved with double-tracking and other investment, you could have legitimately good journey times between the main cities that cannot be provided by the WRC between say Limerick and Galway. e.g. Limerick to Limerick Junction, then join a much higher speed and more frequent Cork to Dublin service, then a much higher speed and more frequent Dublin to Galway service. More interchange allows for much greater usability of the whole network and it'd still beat the WRC for time and pax numbers no doubt...

Entertaining this idea even for a moment, there would be no further commuter benefit for any of the other major towns and cities, and Dublin continues to bulge towards breaking point.

Its time the smaller economic areas were given adequate infrastructure to grow and reduce the internal migration east.

donvito99

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Entertaining this idea even for a moment, there would be no further commuter benefit for any of the other major towns and cities, and Dublin continues to bulge towards breaking point.

Its time the smaller economic areas were given adequate infrastructure to grow and reduce the internal migration east.

If you improved line speed and frequency south of Limerick Junction, a Cork - Limerick service is suddenly faster and more useful*, what has that got to do with Dublin? Coincidentally, the Dublin - Cork service is faster, I suppose.

And much faster than any re-opened line via Patrickswell would achieve, before someone gets into that

Greaney

donvito99 wrote: »

You're not suggesting motorways can't be used by local, commuter and intercity bus and coach services, are you?

Yes, I am. They can't be used all the time. That's why one needs many modes of transport. I hitch-hiked for years because I didn't drive and motorways make that very awkward. (I still pick up hitchers now, out of principal and feel motorways make it a bit trickier to drop someone off if you can't take them all the way there). That's just one example of the shortcomings of motorways

donvito99 wrote: »

No they don't. If we upgrade lines (which happen to lead to Dublin), Portarlington, Limerick Junction, Mallow etc. will offer fast, frequent timely connections between Tralee/Killarney, Cork, Limerick, Galway etc. - that is if money otherwise spent on re-opening meandering, slow, single-track railways from nowhere to Ardrahan to a crossroads to Athenry keep getting funding was redirected into the mainline single track railways in rural Ireland bursting at the seams.

I'm afraid I just disagree with you there. I love that to get a train to Limerick now, I don't have to head towards Dublin. As for 'bursting at the seams', we need more rolling stock, but in fairness, I've been using the Galway to Limerick line for a few years. A couple of years ago there was alway's seats available, now, there are parts of the line you cannot get a seat.... time changes everything. We should be planning and building for the future, not the present.

Interestingly, I came across the Wikipedia article on the Western Rail corridor... they still think it's only half way through being built.... :P

Isambard

whereas I'm sure there are some trains on the Ennis to Athenry line that run full, that implies others must be virtually empty as they average 39 or so passengers per train. You can't ignore the empty trains whilst claiming good usership

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

whereas I'm sure there are some trains on the Ennis to Athenry line that run full, that implies others must be virtually empty as they average 39 or so passengers per train. You can't ignore the empty trains whilst claiming good usership

even if there are empty trains, they have to run anyway as they will need to do a return service.

intellectual dosser

donvito99 wrote: »

If you improved line speed and frequency south of Limerick Junction, a Cork - Limerick service is suddenly faster and more useful*, what has that got to do with Dublin? Coincidentally, the Dublin - Cork service is faster, I suppose.

And much faster than any re-opened line via Patrickswell would achieve, before someone gets into that

A small outlier on what is ultimately a hub and spoke model you're describing. I wouldn't believe Dublin rail system or stations have the capacity for such an idea. This is an idea for the 'if we had €200bn to spend on infrastructure' thread that was going last week.

And then, it still says nothing for what I think is the biggest problem to solve, commuting within our smaller towns and regions.

Isambard

end of the road wrote: »

even if there are empty trains, they have to run anyway as they will need to do a return service.

with train and crew depots at either end of the run, I imagine that's not necessarily the case for all services.

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

with train and crew depots at either end of the run, I imagine that's not necessarily the case for all services.

a unit will still have to run to do a return, that is how a train service works.
there is going to have to be a service with less usage at some part of the day to get units back to where they need to be.

ohographite

donvito99 wrote: »

At least a Western Motorway from Derry to Cork allows for the movement of freight and passengers for great swathes of the North West, West and South that aren't just Claremorris, Tuam, Craughwell, Sixmilebridge….

If speeds and frequencies on the mainlines were improved with double-tracking and other investment, you could have legitimately good journey times between the main cities that cannot be provided by the WRC between say Limerick and Galway. e.g. Limerick to Limerick Junction, then join a much higher speed and more frequent Cork to Dublin service, then a much higher speed and more frequent Dublin to Galway service. More interchange allows for much greater usability of the whole network and it'd still beat the WRC for time and pax numbers no doubt...

What are pax numbers?

Isambard

end of the road wrote: »

a unit will still have to run to do a return, that is how a train service works.
there is going to have to be a service with less usage at some part of the day to get units back to where they need to be.

not necessarily in every case. Inventive unit diagrams and in particular train crew rosters might eliminate some of the emptier trains, or provide extra capacity at busy times. A Unit does not have to return immediately and two units can be joined to return an unbalanced one later in the day and also drivers can swap over en route.

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

not necessarily in every case. Inventive unit diagrams and in particular train crew rosters might eliminate some of the emptier trains, or provide extra capacity at busy times. A Unit does not have to return immediately and two units can be joined to return an unbalanced one later in the day and also drivers can swap over en route.

yes however running a unit in service and providing a service is ultimately much easier and provides greater benefit.
the unit will have to go back to base at some point so running a passenger service seems to be the easier option then trying to sort out train staff and unit swaps.

westtip

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Yes, your post is equally tiresome.

But true