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Ridiculous #GE2020 promises

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    #152
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    I asked a FF guy in Maynooth about metro, would it continue as is or back to drawing board.
    Seemed shocked by question, then spouted crap they still have railway order of original metro North, didn't think the FG plan was good enough, started talking about DU then.

    replying to this as its not allowed in metro thread! WTF! WTF! these people are out looking for votes, and actually do not have a clue! they are offensive morons! the current plans for DM need to go ahead and asap. to hell with anything else, even if some felt they were less than optimal. they want to start the entire, boring, predictable and unbearable saga again? until someone thinks those plans should be shelved. Pathetic!

    the rail order for MN is expired and I believe DM is a better plan anyway. Regardless, pity MN didnt go ahead, even if DM was superior, because at least we would have something built, rather than talking about hypotheticals for decades !!! :mad:


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    #153
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,856 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    replying to this as its not allowed in metro thread! WTF! WTF! these people are out looking for votes, and actually do not have a clue! they are offensive morons! the current plans for DM need to go ahead and asap. to hell with anything else, even if some felt they were less than optimal. they want to start the entire, boring, predictable and unbearable saga again? until someone thinks those plans should be shelved. Pathetic!

    the rail order for MN is expired and I believe DM is a better plan anyway. Regardless, pity MN didnt go ahead, even if DM was superior, because at least we would have something built, rather than talking about hypotheticals for decades !!! :mad:

    I guess it comes down to what a candidate has prepared for, and this candidate can't understand why somebody is asking about a project outside their constituency.


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    #154
    major interest
    Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭major interest


    Had a quick scan of some of the manifestos and searched for the term "metro". It's mentioned in all of them to some degree. Upgrading the existing green line to metro isn't specifically mentioned in any of them it would appear.

    Green Party: Commence construction of Metro North from North of Swords to the South of Ranelagh Luas station and initiate an immediate review of the three options for extending the Metro further South from there. (Does anyone know what these 3 options are incidentally?)

    Fianna Fail: Explore the feasibility of Metro South West, ensuring our capital city is efficient is critical to the quality of life its citizens and the economic prosperity of the region. We will strengthen public transport and undertake a feasibility study into constructing Metro South West as a potential key future project. We will allocate €19m for this detailed study.

    Fine Gael: Over the next five years, we will revolutionise public transport in the Greater Dublin Area by completing the BusConnects programme and ensuring that MetroLink proceeds through planning and to construction. We will also explore the feasibility of extending MetroLink to other locations including UCD, south-west Dublin; extending the Luas network to Hazelhatch and Booterstown; explore other transport options to reduce dependency on the private car and evaluate the need for underground metro routes within the M50.

    Sinn Fein: Progressing the extension of the Luas to Bray, Finglas, Lucan and Poolbeg, the
    DART underground, and completing the Dublin Metro by 2027.

    Labour: Labour will prioritise infrastructure projects needed for the economic development of cities and large towns outside of Dublin, such as the North Ring Road in Cork, raising Rosslare Europort to Tier 1 status and the Metro to Dublin Airport/Swords/Fingal.


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    #155
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    major interest wrote: »
    Green Party: Commence construction of Metro North from North of Swords to the South of Ranelagh Luas station and initiate an immediate review of the three options for extending the Metro further South from there. (Does anyone know what these 3 options are incidentally?)

    1. UCD
    2. Green line upgrade
    3. SW

    Ironically, the UCD option only came about after Eamon Ryan got the crayons out, proposed the SW option and people explained to him that a Sandyford needed additional capacity. So he went back to the drawing board and put a line from Charlemont to UCD and then onto a Sandyford via the southern bypass alignment reserve plus an additional Luas line from Booterstown to Tallaght.

    I would be in favour of the UCD route as a Luas line from Harcourt as it would provide an alternative to the green line while it is being upgraded to metro :pac::pac::pac:


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    #156
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,856 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/what-are-each-parties-transport-election-promises-1.4155507

    A quick summary for all.


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    #157
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,927 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    It has been revealed today that, to make space for cyclists, Paris mayor @Anne_Hidalgo will remove 72% of the French capital's on-street car parking spaces. 60,000 spaces to be eliminated.

    Drool. I wish Anne would run for election here.


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    #158
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Qrt wrote: »
    She was elected as an independent, then switched to FF pretty much straight away. That’s just sneaky considering she probably wouldn’t have won with the FF banner.

    Besides, she’s still going on about Orlagh Roundabout! God love the poor people of Knocklyon not having an extra lane.
    She was elected as an Independent in 2014.

    She joined Fianna Fail in February 2019.

    She was re-elected on the first count in June 2019.


    Not only did you get it wrong about there being no buses between Ballycullen and Tallaght (3 is more than 0 m8), you can't tell the difference between

    1) 2014 and 2019

    2) Something happening before an election and after an election.


    Impressive.

    She's also still going on about the Orlagh roundabout because 1 year on, there are still queues off-peak purely because of this roundabout.


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    #159
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    It has been revealed today that, to make space for cyclists, Paris mayor @Anne_Hidalgo will remove 72% of the French capital's on-street car parking spaces. 60,000 spaces to be eliminated.

    Drool. I wish Anne would run for election here.

    we have absolute morons running for election here and nothing will change soon! The public have to demand better, it wont come from those *£$&£$£&£&$£


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    #160
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Last Stop wrote: »
    1. UCD
    2. Green line upgrade
    3. SW

    Ironically, the UCD option only came about after Eamon Ryan got the crayons out, proposed the SW option and people explained to him that a Sandyford needed additional capacity. So he went back to the drawing board and put a line from Charlemont to UCD and then onto a Sandyford via the southern bypass alignment reserve plus an additional Luas line from Booterstown to Tallaght.

    If the Greens think it is a good idea to have a metro line linking the Southwest of the city with the city centre - a view I agree with - what is the possible logic of building this first to Ranelagh (broadly in the Southeast) and then heading in a southwesterly direction?

    If the aim is the Southwest, why not just build it from Swords/the Airport to the city centre and then head to the Southwest directly?

    It reminds me of the (probably apocryphal) tale of the lost tourist in Ireland asking for directions and being told "Well, I wouldn't start from here." And in the case of these metro plans from the Greens for an extension to the Southwest from Ranelagh, you really wouldn't.

    You'd start to the Southwest from the city centre.


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    #161
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    If the Greens think it is a good idea to have a metro line linking the Southwest of the city with the city centre - a view I agree with - what is the possible logic of building this first to Ranelagh (broadly in the Southeast) and then heading in a southwesterly direction?

    If the aim is the Southwest, why not just build it from Swords/the Airport to the city centre and then head to the Southwest directly?

    It reminds me of the (probably apocryphal) tale of the lost tourist in Ireland asking for directions and being told "Well, I wouldn't start from here." And in the case of these metro plans from the Greens for an extension to the Southwest from Ranelagh, you really wouldn't.

    You'd start to the Southwest from the city centre.

    Because their leader is on the Dail record in 2004 advocating the extension of metro north to include the green line upgrade.

    We’ve been through the SW option before, it isn’t viable. You haven’t provided the figures on station sizes you continued to promise.


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    #162
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭Qrt


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    She was elected as an Independent in 2014.

    She joined Fianna Fail in February 2019.

    She was re-elected on the first count in June 2019.


    Not only did you get it wrong about there being no buses between Ballycullen and Tallaght (3 is more than 0 m8), you can't tell the difference between

    1) 2014 and 2019

    2) Something happening before an election and after an election.


    Impressive.

    She's also still going on about the Orlagh roundabout because 1 year on, there are still queues off-peak purely because of this roundabout.

    I’m from the area, when people talk about Ballycullen, then mean the southern fringes built on the mountainside by Lidl and up to the Augustinians. The proposed 16 is an adequate bus to Tallaght. Sure the 175 is a welcome addition but it’s awfully infrequent (especially at weekends, and if the other two buses are the 49 and the 65b, well the 49 is a hell of a walk (and infrequent) and the 65b is so infrequent it’s almost pointless.

    But yeah, I got the dates wrong, big whoop. Dunno why you had to get all snarky about it


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    #163
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Last Stop wrote: »
    Because their leader is on the Dail record in 2004 advocating the extension of metro north to include the green line upgrade.
    I'm sure we can get into a discussion of future proposals for the Green Line at some later stage, and perhaps also Mr Ryan's views in 2004 - 16 years back - but the current thread is about party manifestos, and my query is about the Greens' logic of building a metro line between Ranelagh and the Southwest of the city.

    I feel it would just be more sensible to build such a line directly between the centre and the Southwest. I can't see why there is a need to faff around with building it to any station in Ranelagh, or any other station in the Southeast of the city.
    Last Stop wrote: »
    We’ve been through the SW option before, it isn’t viable. You haven’t provided the figures on station sizes you continued to promise.

    Of course a southwest option is viable, it just needs some political will, and it would certainly take more time to get to what we currently envisage as 'completion'. To date it doesn't yet seem to have registered with the decision makers that the higher population densities on the southside are in places like Terenure, Rathfarnham, Firhouse and Knocklyon, rather than in Dundrum, Clonskeagh and Sandyford, which are already very nicely served by rail transport.

    But I am hopeful that it will eventually register.

    And, in relation to this thread, I remain pretty much bamboozled by the Greens' logic behind a metro line to the Southwest via Ranelagh. Puzzled, at least.


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    #164
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    I'm sure we can get into a discussion of future proposals for the Green Line at some later stage, and perhaps also Mr Ryan's views in 2004 - 16 years back - but the current thread is about party manifestos, and my query is about the Greens' logic of building a metro line between Ranelagh and the Southwest of the city.

    I feel it would just be more sensible to build such a line directly between the centre and the Southwest. I can't see why there is a need to faff around with building it to any station in Ranelagh, or any other station in the Southeast of the city.

    The ship has sailed on metrolink phase 1. Any changes to the alignment between Swords and south of Charlemont (I.e. Ranelagh) would set the project back years.
    It would be completely illogical for the Green Party to propose delaying a public transport project so they have tried to have it every way by proposing a SW option from Ranelagh.
    Of course a southwest option is viable, it just needs some political will, and it would certainly take more time to get to what we currently envisage as 'completion'. To date it doesn't yet seem to have registered with the decision makers that the higher population densities on the southside are in places like Terenure, Rathfarnham, Firhouse and Knocklyon, rather than in Dundrum, Clonskeagh and Sandyford, which are already very nicely served by rail transport.

    But I am hopeful that it will eventually register.

    And, in relation to this thread, I remain pretty much bamboozled by the Greens' logic behind a metro line to the Southwest via Ranelagh. Puzzled, at least.

    The SW option isn’t viable. Talk of political will is nonsense. The numbers don’t stack up. Your misunderstanding of which areas are served by each line has already been pointed out.
    I suggest you tell those who struggle to get on the green line every morning that they are very nicely served by rail. I’m sure you’d get a rude awakening.

    The SW option is currently a political point scoring tool. If it was truly viable, then at least 1 part would have committed to building it rather than the token feasibility study.


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    #165
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Last Stop wrote: »
    The ship has sailed on metrolink phase 1. Any changes to the alignment between Swords and south of Charlemont (I.e. Ranelagh) would set the project back years.
    The situation on this part of the metro project is not relevant to this thread.
    Last Stop wrote: »
    It would be completely illogical for the Green Party to propose delaying a public transport project so they have tried to have it every way by proposing a SW option from Ranelagh.

    The Greens want the Swords/Airport metro into town, and then they want the metro to continue to the Southwest. I like that.

    Where does Ranelagh, in the Southeast, come into that? The formerly proposed unnecessary replacement of the southside Green line is sensibly not now going to happen, as there's still plenty of scope for increasing the number of trams, so why do they see Ranelagh getting involved in a line to the Southwest of Dublin?
    Last Stop wrote: »
    The SW option isn’t viable. Talk of political will is nonsense. The numbers don’t stack up. Your misunderstanding of which areas are served by each line has already been pointed out.

    No, it hasn't. All of the places we talked about, namely Terenure, Rahfarnham, Firhouse and Knocklyon, have higher population densities than Dundrum or Sandyford, and several other areas along the Green line (I don't have the figures directly to hand).
    Last Stop wrote: »
    I suggest you tell those who struggle to get on the green line every morning that they are very nicely served by rail. I’m sure you’d get a rude awakening.

    I was in Helsinki only two days ago. There's a section there where they are running 32 trams per hour in each direction at peak times, with street crossings. That's yet another city, along with all the other cities which you and I and others have discussed on this board, which are running a tram throughput which is 50%+ over what they're currently running on the Green line.

    There are several ways that Dublin could improve the throughput along the part of the green line south of the canal, like building a tram line along Adelaide Road towards Baggot Street Bridge and perhaps beyond, and the metrolink people have very sensibly decided to put off the currently unnecessary replacement, for at least a couple of decades, while they look at (and hopefully) eventually implement other options.

    They've made a clear statement that it is not necessary to replace the Green line, south of the canal, for at least a couple of decades.
    Last Stop wrote: »
    The SW option is currently a political point scoring tool. If it was truly viable, then at least 1 part would have committed to building it rather than the token feasibility study.

    It is certainly valid that it is a point-scoring tool. But the areas involved in any putative southwest line generally have higher densities than those along the Green line south of the canal, there are no obvious ways to serve them by LUAS, and journey times would be very significantly reduced along any corridor in that area.

    (In contrast, any project which involved replacing the Green LUAS would involve an unnecessary hiatus of probably at least 6 or more months, would not noticeably improve journey times into the city for almost all passengers, and would indeed increase journey times for a very large number of passengers along the line).


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    #166
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,768 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    the higher population densities on the southside are in places like Terenure, Rathfarnham, Firhouse and Knocklyon, rather than in Dundrum, Clonskeagh and Sandyford, which are already very nicely served by rail transport.

    I'd love to see back up for that claim as it doesn't seem correct to me. Even if it is true, the population increases currently happening along the Green Line will undoubtedly change it. Construction of a new town for several thousand people well underway at Cherrywood, SHD consultation has just started on over 700 apartments in Dundrum plus over 1,000 are intended for the Central Mental Hospital, we could see another thousand plus units in Sandyford. The other areas you mentioned are an ocean of semi-ds with good sized front and back gardens. The Green Line needs upgrading to Metro, there is no doubt about that.


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    #167
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    have people before profit and the lunatic left, proposed ripping up the rail lines and selling the steel and trains etc, so that we can increase welfare spending?


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    #168
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    I'd love to see back up for that claim as it doesn't seem correct to me. Even if it is true, the population increases currently happening along the Green Line will undoubtedly change it. Construction of a new town for several thousand people well underway at Cherrywood, SHD consultation has just started on over 700 apartments in Dundrum plus over 1,000 are intended for the Central Mental Hospital, we could see another thousand plus units in Sandyford. The other areas you mentioned are an ocean of semi-ds with good sized front and back gardens. The Green Line needs upgrading to Metro, there is no doubt about that.

    also the old dundrum town centre redevelopment will add hundreds of apartments, the jesuit site in milltown near the luas, will add hundreds more. There must be plans for 5,000 or so apartments in the south city near the green line currently including cherrywood...


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    #169
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    have people before profit and the lunatic left, proposed ripping up the rail lines and selling the steel and trains etc, so that we can increase welfare spending?

    No, but they want to cancel Metrolink because it's going to require the CPO of the apartments at Tara St, while they're big proponents of the Western Rail Corridor.

    :confused:


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    #170
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    CatInABox wrote: »
    No, but they want to cancel Metrolink because it's going to require the CPO of the apartments at Tara St, while they're big proponents of the Western Rail Corridor.

    :confused:

    yeah, thats where my extreme comment was aimed at , that insanity. Was fairly sure I had read that! :rolleyes:

    those apartments at tara street, can be replaced by higher density ones later on...


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    #171
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,429 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    yeah, thats where my extreme comment was aimed at , that insanity. Was fairly sure I had read that! :rolleyes:

    those apartments at tara street, can be replaced by higher density ones later on...

    The apartment block can even be built before the Metrolink build starts, as can the swimming pool.


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    #172
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,178 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    All of them.


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    #173
    Last Stop
    Registered Users Posts: 920 ✭✭✭Last Stop


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    The situation on this part of the metro project is not relevant to this thread.



    The Greens want the Swords/Airport metro into town, and then they want the metro to continue to the Southwest. I like that.

    Where does Ranelagh, in the Southeast, come into that? The formerly proposed unnecessary replacement of the southside Green line is sensibly not now going to happen, as there's still plenty of scope for increasing the number of trams, so why do they see Ranelagh getting involved in a line to the Southwest of Dublin?



    No, it hasn't. All of the places we talked about, namely Terenure, Rahfarnham, Firhouse and Knocklyon, have higher population densities than Dundrum or Sandyford, and several other areas along the Green line (I don't have the figures directly to hand).



    I was in Helsinki only two days ago. There's a section there where they are running 32 trams per hour in each direction at peak times, with street crossings. That's yet another city, along with all the other cities which you and I and others have discussed on this board, which are running a tram throughput which is 50%+ over what they're currently running on the Green line.

    There are several ways that Dublin could improve the throughput along the part of the green line south of the canal, like building a tram line along Adelaide Road towards Baggot Street Bridge and perhaps beyond, and the metrolink people have very sensibly decided to put off the currently unnecessary replacement, for at least a couple of decades, while they look at (and hopefully) eventually implement other options.

    They've made a clear statement that it is not necessary to replace the Green line, south of the canal, for at least a couple of decades.



    It is certainly valid that it is a point-scoring tool. But the areas involved in any putative southwest line generally have higher densities than those along the Green line south of the canal, there are no obvious ways to serve them by LUAS, and journey times would be very significantly reduced along any corridor in that area.

    (In contrast, any project which involved replacing the Green LUAS would involve an unnecessary hiatus of probably at least 6 or more months, would not noticeably improve journey times into the city for almost all passengers, and would indeed increase journey times for a very large number of passengers along the line).

    Absolute nonsense. No figures to back up any of your claims. Filled with anecdotal evidence.


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    #174
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,856 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    FG third in latest opinion poll and I think fairly safe to say, toxic on transfers.

    Won’t be them as main govt party.


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    #175
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭Qrt


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    FG third in latest opinion poll and I think fairly safe to say, toxic on transfers.

    Won’t be them as main govt party.

    Which poll?


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    #176
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,856 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Qrt wrote: »
    Which poll?

    Sunday Times I think it was.


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    #177
    MrAbyss
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 426 ✭✭MrAbyss


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    have people before profit and the lunatic left, proposed ripping up the rail lines and selling the steel and trains etc, so that we can increase welfare spending?




    Their super rich parents buy them BMWs and Mercs as soon as they turn 17. 'Wots public transport deddi!'


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    #178
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Qrt wrote: »
    I’m from the area, when people talk about Ballycullen, then mean the southern fringes built on the mountainside by Lidl and up to the Augustinians. The proposed 16 is an adequate bus to Tallaght. Sure the 175 is a welcome addition but it’s awfully infrequent (especially at weekends, and if the other two buses are the 49 and the 65b, well the 49 is a hell of a walk (and infrequent) and the 65b is so infrequent it’s almost pointless.

    But yeah, I got the dates wrong, big whoop. Dunno why you had to get all snarky about it
    The 15 Terminus is Ballycullen. The 175 passes by Ballycullen as does the 65B. The 15B terminus is 100m or so from the edge of Ballycullen.

    Ballycullen is south of the Killininny Road, which you would be aware of if "you're from the area".

    Are you pathologically incapable of getting facts correct?

    It's also not snarky to point out that someone is spoofing on the internet, it's a public service.

    You're welcome m8


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    #179
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭Qrt


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    The 15 Terminus is Ballycullen. The 175 passes by Ballycullen as does the 65B. The 15B terminus is 100m or so from the edge of Ballycullen.

    Ballycullen is south of the Killininny Road, which you would be aware of if "you're from the area".

    Are you pathologically incapable of getting facts correct?

    It's also not snarky to point out that someone is spoofing on the internet, it's a public service.

    You're welcome m8

    Last time I checked, the 15 nor the 15B doesn’t go anywhere near Tallaght, which was the whole point I made...

    The 65b is trash as an urban bus service, and the not-very-frequent 175 is running just over a year. My whole point was a decent bus service from Ballycullen to Tallaght should be running properly before the ridiculous notion of a Luas extension...


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    #180
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Qrt wrote: »
    Last time I checked, the 15 nor the 15B doesn’t go anywhere near Tallaght, which was the whole point I made...

    The 65b is trash as an urban bus service, and the not-very-frequent 175 is running just over a year. My whole point was a decent bus service from Ballycullen to Tallaght should be running properly before the ridiculous notion of a Luas extension...
    Both will link you to the 49(15)/75(15+b) within 10 minutes of boarding, since you view a <200m walk to the 49 or a <1km walk to the 75 to be too far to be considered a local bus service.


    Ballycullen has excellent transport links to Tallaght. It's also not in the location where you claimed it was, and your waffling about a local politician was completely wrong.


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    #181
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭Qrt


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Both will link you to the 49(15)/75(15+b) within 10 minutes of boarding, since you view a <200m walk to the 49 or a <1km walk to the 75 to be too far to be considered a local bus service.


    Ballycullen has excellent transport links to Tallaght. It's also not in the location where you claimed it was, and your waffling about a local politician was completely wrong.

    I really don't even know what you're on about at this point, but all I know is that both drafts of the BusConnects redesign have a bus connecting Tallaght and the southern fringes of Ballycullen, so I'm going to go out on a whim and say that they don't think the current bus services are adequate.

    I'm done with this s**t now, I'm out.


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